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Hey all, I had an idea for a crossbow focused build. After looking through several ideas, I've narrowed it down to 3 general concepts and "builds" for the character.
The first, is the tried and true gunslinger bolt ace archetype. It was the first I looked at, but, having played an actual gunslinger recently I am hesitant to play another one again so soon. Due to this, I looked around and stumbled upon the other two builds I'm considering and was hoping I could get some help on making them work.
The First non gunslinger build-
An inquisitor, this build would make use of the judgement ability and Bane abilities to deal high burst damage when needed with the repeating crossbow, while also providing a large amount of skills and good spell-casting options. The down side, is it will have relatively mediocre damage outside of "burn phases" and would follow a similar build to a ranged bow inquisitor.
Pros-
good spells- game changing
good skills- non-combat interactions can be more fun, and more useful to the party
high burst damage or "burn phases"- Great BBEG killer/oh S&^$ buttons
can make use of prone AC bonus vs ranged opponents- Niche, but +4 AC in a ranged shootout can keep you alive longer than one thinks.
Strength is now a very minor stat, so points can be spent elsewhere.
Cons-
Low "random encounter" damage due to limited use of abilities
Flat out lower damage than a "bowman inquisitor"
3/4 BaB so will be harder to hit enemies when making use of deadly aim.
The second non-gunslinger build-
A fighter with the crossbowman archetype with a dip into rogue. This was interesting to me, because it can make the best use of readied actions that I have seen for most martial builds. The idea would be to make use of becoming large (either via ally or item), and then making use of the vital strike tree and focused shot tree. This occurs to me as a fantastic way to deal with enemy casters, since you can set the readied action to go off mid cast, forcing the caster to make a concentration check or lose the spell. And thanks to never full attacking in most situations (you can, and with things like weapon specialization/training/deadly aim it won't be terrible) you can be fairly mobile and keep a good position without too much worry. The downside is the lowest "DPR" of the 3 builds I'm looking at.
I had two ideas for the build, one centered on the fighter side, and one centered on the rogue side.
For the fighter heavy side, it would look something like this-
11 levels in fighter, the rest (probably 5-6) in unrogue. However, you would probably want to take a level or two of rogue early on for skills. Here is my reasoning-
1. Level 11 gives: Greater Deadshot allowing full dex mod on readied action attacks and +11 BaB required for improved vital strike.
2. More feats, The free combat feats help to grab important bits quickly (Deadly aim, weapon focus/spec, rapid reload/crossbow mastery, etc) and free up later feats for more general use feats, such as improving saves and rounding out the build
3. The rogue gives- dex to hit/damage in melee if you ever really need it, effectively making you a decent switch hitter/off "tank" to protect your squishier friends (though, lets hope it never comes to that) A huge list of class skills and extra skill points to play with along with debilitating injury, which, along side Improved Deadshot (Ex) which makes any enemy you shoot with a readied action denied its dexterity guarantees any enemy you want that isn't immune will be getting that debuff. And an extra 3d6 damage doesn't hurt.
The other build that focuses more heavily on the rogue side would only take 7 levels of fighter, just enough to grab Improved Deadshot to deny their target of choice dex to AC and go the rest of the way in Unrogue.
this gives more skills, but slows vital strike progression, and lowers your BaB, but thanks to only making one attack vs a target denied its dexterity, you will likely hit anyway. And that hit will be harder thanks to more sneak attack dice. You would also reach level 10 in rogue, which allows for advanced rogue talents. This seems a fun way to limit enemy movement as well, thanks to debilitating injury's hampered movement condition.
Any thoughts on which of these you think would work better, and any other ideas I missed would be most appreciated.
An eldritch archer magus might find some use for a higher crit range weapon, or an alchemist with explosive missile can use bombs at extreme range.
While I like inquisitors, this is a very feat-heavy concept and they don't really get bonus feats (sanctified slayer inq. does but only at level 7+). Fighter/rogue gets a lot more and I think would work better.
Out of the non-Gunslinger builds, I think the Fighter/UnRogue would probably be best. Inquisitors are awesome and all, but I don't think this is the best build for one.
It's hard for me to really advise anything other than starting with 5 levels of Bolt Ace, though. Crossbow Traininh/Improved Critical on a Dwarven PelletBow is 17-20/x4... yes, please!
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The inquisitor is going to be the best all-around character. Good skills, good buff spells, and an inquisition (as well as the teamwork feats).
The downside to the inquisitor is that as avr mentioned, this is a very feat-heavy build. PBS, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, and Crossbow Mastery are pretty much “must-have.” You almost certainly want Clustered Shots. Eventually Improved Precise Shot. Maybe Point Blank Master (which the inquisitor is not even eligible for).
Of your ideas, I think the fighter/rogue is the best choice. Probably one level of fighter, then two or three levels of rogue, then back to fighter until you get the feats you need.
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Yes, the inquisitor would basically come set with "feat list set in stone" that said, I know for a fact that the GM gives everyone power attack/its equivalent for free if you meet the requirements stat-wise, so at least thats one less, but without extra feats, its basically set to a human, then the next 11 levels of feats are pre spoken for.
I'll look into the magus and alchemist options. Those are two of my most beloved classes right at the top of my list. Thanks for the reminding me about the archerbomber haha.
And belafon, feel free to provide other ideas. As long as the basic thematic of "uses a crossbow as primary weapon" is the main driver.
Ranger (Divine tracker), Crossbow style
Destruction and Liberation blessing
Favored Enemy
Spells
The second non-gunslinger build-
A fighter with the crossbowman archetype with a dip into rogue. This was interesting to me, because it can make the best use of readied actions that I have seen for most martial builds. The idea would be to make use of becoming large (either via ally or item), and then making use of the vital strike tree and focused shot tree.
Okay but what about Overwatch Style to get several ranged readied attacks per turn? Should be more competitive than vital strike.
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The Rapid Reload feat tax should be avoided. The easiest alternative is to snag exotic proficiency with the Light Dwarven Pelletbow through a Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone for 1,500 gp (implant it).
The only advantage crossbows have over any other ranged weapon (bows, firearms) is their crit range, so focusing on that should let you fill a niche the others can't. I'm not sure what level range you're going to play at but the Rogue/Fighter build gives me the impression it's going to be high. A Luring Cavalier's Infuriating Aim comes at level 11 but really gives your crits a punch.
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So with Haste and Rapid Shot that would be three attacks per round that qualifies, and if critically hit their next turn is essentially lost. Spellcasters can't cast, archers can't shoot, and melee combatants can only attack if they have a clear charge path. Which is pretty easy to prevent since you're mounted.
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I'd take a really close look at a ranger. The Crossbow or Archery ranger combat style lets you skip some of the feats. It's particularly helpful if you are set on a heavy crossbow and are playing in a game that allows retraining, since you can lose Rapid Reload once you pick up Crossbow Mastery with a ranger combat style feat.
The slayer is also an option (it can take ranger combat style feats). Slayer gets a few more feat-equivalents with slayer talents. I'd give the slayer a slight edge if your campaign is very combat-heavy against a wide variety of creature types, but the ranger is better when you expect only a couple types of enemies. The ranger also gets an animal companion and spellcasting, which can be huge. Favored Terrain and Quarry as well. Both classes get 6+ skill points per level which is way better than a fighter.
The Molthune Arsenal Champion archetype for the warpriest is also a really good ranged combatant. They get feats a bit slower than a fighter but much faster than the inquisitor (1 bonus/3 levels). They get weapon training and can self-buff as a swift action. Not as skilled or all-around as an inquisitor or ranger.
Another option is the Eldritch Archer Magus... an Elf has a +2 vs SR, pick up a Mage's Crossbow for its bonus vs SR... Intensified Snowball tricks should be pretty sustainable, especially with all the traits you can use to reduce metamagics costs.
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Thank you for bringing overwatch style to my attention! Thats perfect for the fighter/rogue build!
I've been tinkering, and here is a general layout of the build I was considering-
1-Fighter
2-Rogue
3-fighter
4-fighter
5-fighter
6-fighter
7-fighter
8-fighter
9-17 Rogue
Feat progression would look something as follows-
half elf with dual minded and blended view alternate racials
1- Deadly aim (freebie from GM), precise shot (note, PBS and weapon finesse were added baseline to everyone), Rapid Reload, Rapid shot (fighter)
3- Weapon focus crossbow, Crossbow Mastery
5- Weapon specialization crossbow, Overwatch Style
7- Overwatch tactician, Iron will
9- Accomplished sneak attacker??
11-Improved Iron will (The idea would be to grab a defiant weapon, for additional rerolls/day)
13-Overwatch Vortex
15-???
17- Extra Rogue Talent (to grab two advanced talents)
For Advanced talents, I'm considering the following-
See in darkness- great ability, be able to see in any darkness (natural or magical) like one does at day. A good investment for a ranged character though it doesn't come until the end (17)
Cutting Edge, two additional rogues edge skills sounds amazing. Though, again, comes late (17)
Double Debilitation- against foes in combat an additional -2 to hit or AC is meh at this point for allies, but the bonus to hit for me can be handy
Improved Evasion- shouldn't be failing many reflex saves, but always nice to have.
Confounding blades- I can basically deny Large enemies any AoOs on demand, though with slow reaction, it probably won't be need.
Dispelling Strike- can be rather useful, but requires taking major magic rogue talents.
any thoughts?
I haven't looked over the other ones enough at the moment though both the magus and alchemist seem interesting.