Along with racial mods, how about class ability mods. These mods would be for your starting class at 1st level only.
Alchemist- +2Dex +2Int
Arcanist- +2Int +2Cha
Barbarian- +2Str +2Con
Bard- +2Dex +2Cha
Bloodrager- +2Str +2Cha
Cavalier- +2Str +2Con
Cleric- +2Wis +2Cha
Druid- +2(Str, Dex, or Con) +2Wis
Fighter- +2Str +2Con
Gunslinger- +2Dex +2Wis
Hunter- +2(Str, Dex, or Con) +2Wis
Inquisitor- +2(Str, Dex, or Con) +2Wis
Investigator- +2(Str, Dex, or Con) +2Int
Kineticist- +2Dex +2Con
Magus- +2(Str, Dex, or Con) +2Int
Medium- +2Con +2Cha
Mesmerist- +2(Str or Dex) +2Cha
Monk- +2Str +2Dex +2Wis
Ninja- +2Dex +2Cha
Occultist- +2(Str or Dex) +2Int
Oracle- +2Wis +2Cha
Paladin- +2Str +2Cha
Psychic- +2Int +2(Wis or Cha)
Ranger- +2 to any two(Str, Dex, Con, or Wis)
Rogue- +2Dex +2(Int or Cha)
Samurai- +2Str +2Con
Shaman- +2Wis +2Cha
Shifter- +2Str +2Dex +2Wis
Skald- +2Str +Cha
Slayer- +2Str +2Dex
Sorcerer- +2(Int or Wis) +2Cha
Spiritualist- +2(Str or Dex) +2Wis
Summoner- +2(Str or Dex) +2Cha
Swashbuckler- +2Dex +2Cha
Vigilante- +2 to any two
Warpriest- +2(Str, Dex, or Con) +2Wis
Witch- +2Int +2(Wis or Cha)
Wizard- +2Int +2Wis
This is essentially what PF2 does, of course. In PF1 it would favour SAD characters. For example, a paladin doesn't really care about much other than Str and Cha, but a ranger wants essentially everything except Cha. So on the same point buy (presumably reduced to allow for the extra +2) the paladin would be strictly advantaged over the ranger.
Something I like is playing against type. Your system (and PF2s) make that harder. Do not like.
I think you'll also find some disagreement on who needs what stats. My Bloodrager definitely has a hogher CON than CHA, so the +2 CHA is pretty wasted there. I also don't know why Oracles get +2 WIS ...
Some of the MAD vs SAD stuff can be solved by having a cap for first level abilities (nothing over 18 at level 1), meaning the Wizard might be able to spend more on CON/DEX, but they can't just pump their INT to the stratosphere and be more wizard. The Paladin might still end up better off than the Ranger, but the disparity won't be as bad generally.
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Yeah, one of my gripes against pf2 is the increased amount of forced ability scores. When I run a pf1 game, my home rule is no racial ability modifiers. Everyone instead gets +2 to one mental stat and +2 to one physical stat of their choice. I like encouraging my players to play what they want, not forcing choices on them based on stereotypes.
Looking over your list, I have played many of those classes and dumped one of the stats you listed for them. There are many archetypes, feats, choices of class features, even items that will change what ability scores are primary for any given class.
Gnoams, so you don't give an ability penalty?
I also like the idea of stats by level gaining a +2 to one stat at level 1 and +2 for three stats at level 4 and every four levels after. Another idea is just give 1 point physical and 1 point mental stat boost every level or every even level starting at 2nd.
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Along with racial mods . . .
I have one very big problem with your suggestion. You are essentially suggesting boosting the typical key stat scores for each class even higher. Which will presumably raise the overall power level of your campaign and (in turn) make playing an atypical build even less attractive/effective.
Now; if your home group loves big numbers and plays with the most common builds, maybe it will work for you. But it's definitely a negative to me.
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Gnoams, so you don't give an ability penalty?
I also like the idea of stats by level gaining a +2 to one stat at level 1 and +2 for three stats at level 4 and every four levels after. Another idea is just give 1 point physical and 1 point mental stat boost every level or every even level starting at 2nd.
Nope no penalty. I tend to run fairly challenging games so a little boost is fine. Players normally choose a race with a -2 to their dump stat, so it tends to have very little impact anyway.
I've thought about doing something like that too, but never tried it. It's one thing I really like about starfinder and pf2 is the stat boosts. To balance it, i'd remove enhancement magic items from the game, and make the stat boosts also count as enhancements so they don't stack with spells like bulls strength. +10 over 20 levels is the same as a +6 enhancement and +4 inherent, so I'd remove inherent bonuses as well and it should theoretically work out ok.
No Skrayper, this is not in place of racial mods but I would love to get rid of (most)stat boosting magic items though I have no problem with stat boosting spells, potions, etc. working as normal.
No belafon, my current group doesn't use any of these rules(I am not currently DMing). These are just ideas I have been thinking about for a while.
So what are everyone's starting stat generation rules and what kind of stats do your players/characters tend to have?
For changes like this, the first question you should always ask yourself is "what problem am I trying to solve?", and if there is no problem, "what does my change improve?".
Because honestly, I don't see how this in any way makes the game better. It increases the differences between dedicated and non-dedicated characters a bit, but I don't see how that improves the game. Meanwhile, your system increases the effect of SADness, and non-standard builds get even harder to make work.
I think there is a way to make the concept improve the game, and that's by having the class based ability mods not improve the primary ability score (e.g. key ability score for full casters, Str/Dex for martials). That way you can lesser the downside of MADness, because a +2Wis helps the Monk more than the Wizard, without notably increasing the overall power level (which giving the Wizard +2 Int does). As a by-product, this also (mostly) lessens the problem that your system nerfs e.g. dex-based Fighter builds. Either system needs a way to include archetypes etc. that change the key ability score.
Then we just make the class bonus a +2 to any two stats you want with Monk and Shifter getting 3.
I'd think class ability score mods work better if always one of both boosts is free to allocate. And if some character option changes the most important score (like empyreal / sage bloodline for sorcerer or archer archetype for fighter), it should also change the fixed score bonus.
What's the point of such a system? It makes decisions easier for new players - and even for some experienced players who try a new concept or suffer from a heavy case of decision paralysis.
Then we just make the class bonus a +2 to any two stats you want with Monk and Shifter getting 3.
Have you even read my post?
Without a bunch of back and forth bashing or "correcting" can someone or two please explain the opposing viewpoints on stat-boosting magic items? This is a new issue/topic to me. Aside from the "predictability/boring" factor of the "big 6" I don't see the issue.
I will try, but it will likely be uncomplete.
Arguments in favor of Big 6 as actual items:
+ useful in many situations, so they are attractive to players (and to GMs who want to hand out something that will likely be accepted)
+ rather low-priced, given how often they apply (IMO Paizo overrates situational bonuses, so in comparison working-most-of-time bonuses become rather cheap)
+ easy to understand, especially since there is a series of each, from +1 to +5 (only bigger issue might be whether the bonus types stacks something else)
Arguments against Big 6 as actual items:
- can be perceived as boring, in comparison to items which actually allow new actions
- usually superior to other items for the same item slot (given roughly the same price), so a mechanics-driven player will almost always take a Big 6 item - the others basically don't exist for them, reducing variety (hence reducing amount of different experiences, hence reducing fun)
- render some class abilities (partially) obsolete, when they provide bonuses of the same type (mainly spells such like bull's strength, greater magic weapon, but also domain powers, school powers etc.)
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someone or two please explain the opposing viewpoints on stat-boosting magic items?
Pro: They're easy rewards to hand out. If GMing for people who require frequent tangile rewards to stay interested, removing the big 6 might make doing that hard to accomplish.
Con: They make the game worse for everyone who isn't described by the above.- They result in almost all other items being sold, no matter how interesting; especially those items in the respective slot.
- They force (or at least drive) players to be mechanics-minded, as taking the flavor option can notably lessen a character's survivability.
- They destroy almost every attempt at making a cool magic item, as the focus lies solely on numerical bonuses. In general, they make magic items feel less "magical".
- They make a low magic item game require an adjustment of difficulty, as the game literally expects PCs to have the big 6.
- They increase loot distribution quarrels, as everyone in the party wants them.
- They can lead to frustration, if the awesome new +x weapon or armor doesn't fit the character (doesn't match the Weapon Focus, wrong max dex, etc.).
- They directly tie the character's prowess to the finding of loot, strongly rewarding behaviour like robbing ever tomb, and general "thieving murderhobo" playstyle, even more so in comparison when using non-standard exp/levelup systems. This makes the game more combat-focussed unless the GM put in extra work.
Unless you're GMing for young children or people with ADD, I strongly recommend using ABP. I'm using it for my current campaign, and I'm lovign it. It allowed me to remove magic item shops altogether, and even change magic item identification system from a boring roll to an awesome try-it-out.
on the topic of how do we generate stats;
one absurd and fun way we tried is rolling 24d6, discard the lowest 6 and make six sets of 3 from the remaining, with typically rerolling the entire set if the total is under X. It's just fun to roll that many dice at once!
When I find myself making a system to make up for bad rolls by buffing stats to acceptable levels, I ask myself, "Why don't you just use stat arrays?"
Sounds like a much simpler solution would be to increase the number of points allowed for stat generation. That way your players can put the bonus where they want.
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My favourite method so far is:
15 point buy.
Every level after 1st you get another point to spend on your point buy (not an ability point, just a point fornthe point buy).
Obviously you can save your points up so you can spend them on something higher than a 13.
The only change I'd make to this system is to give 1 extra point just to save on time remembering your score (15+level is easier to remember than 15+level-1). It'd be *slightly* more powerful, but not really enough to matter.
My favourite method so far is:
15 point buy.
Every level after 1st you get another point to spend on your point buy (not an ability point, just a point fornthe point buy).
Obviously you can save your points up so you can spend them on something higher than a 13.
That's... pretty amazing, actually. Every level (or every few) you have an interesting decision whether to pay a lot for high reward or less for lower reward. And whether to go for well-planned long-term boosts or tempting short-term benefits.
No matter whether you play a wizard or a monk, it's interesting and balanced. And if you don't like the decision making, you can still focus on incrementing your favourite score, it just has slightly diminishing returns. A wizard, built the "classic" way, would end up with (pre-racial) Int 19 at level 4, 20 at 9, 21 at 14 and 22 at 20.
Just for clarification, what is ABP?
My favourite method so far is:
15 point buy.
Every level after 1st you get another point to spend on your point buy (not an ability point, just a point fornthe point buy).
Obviously you can save your points up so you can spend them on something higher than a 13.
That's... pretty amazing, actually. Every level (or every few) you have an interesting decision whether to pay a lot for high reward or less for lower reward. And whether to go for well-planned long-term boosts or tempting short-term benefits.
No matter whether you play a wizard or a monk, it's interesting and balanced. And if you don't like the decision making, you can still focus on incrementing your favourite score, it just has slightly diminishing returns. A wizard, built the "classic" way, would end up with (pre-racial) Int 19 at level 4, 20 at 9, 21 at 14 and 22 at 20.
Oh yeah I should have said you can take your stats higher than 18, but it costs more. Stat costs follow the same patern as usual, and are as follows:
Stat // // cost for one upgrade.
7 // // (-)
8 // // +2
9 // // +1
10 // // +1
11 // // +1
12 // // +1
13 // // +1
14 // // +2
15 // // +2
16 // // +3
17 // // +3
18 // // +4
19 // // +4
20 // // +5
21 // // +5
22 // // +6
Those are the costs pre-racial and pre-age-modifier.
And I think you couldn't start higher than 18 (post racial/age I think).
So my Bloodrager is the only Front-line character in Iron Gods, and I wanted to just pump STR, but instead I keep having to upgrade my other stats just to stay alive =P
Stats at L-1: S-16, D-10, C-15, I-10, W-10, C-13
Stats at L-3: S-16, D-12, C-15, I-10, W-10, C-13
Stats at L-8: S-18, D-12, C-15, I-10, W-10, C-13
Stats at L-11: S-18, D-12, C-16, I-10, W-10, C-13
Stats at L-13: S-18, D-12, C-16, I-10, W-10, C-14
Stats at L-16: S-18, D-14, C-16, I-10, W-10, C-14
(And then more INT/WIS to round it all out)
But this is how it's gone so far after needing more defence (and not really needing more offence):
Stats at L-1: S-16, D-10, C-15, I-10, W-10, C-13
Stats at L-3: S-16, D-12, C-15, I-10, W-10, C-13
Stats at L-8: S-16, D-12, C-16, I-10, W-10, C-13
I'm level 10 now (and I've upped my STR to 17) but I'm thinking of taking Combat Expertise at level 11 so ...
Stats at L-11: S-16, D-12, C-16, I-13, W-10, C-13
Stats at L-14: S-18, D-12, C-16, I-13, W-10, C-13
Stats at L-16: S-18, D-12, C-16, I-13, W-10, C-14
Stats at L-19: S-18, D-14, C-16, I-13, W-10, C-14
As you can see that decision making has really come to the front for this character, delaying that STR upgrade for 6 levels is rough =P