Why on earth is Winged Evolution a 16th-level feat!?

[Moppy]

I find new players are surprised by the lack of penalty in RAW for shooting up. So, I do not consider it a bad rule to have. We can however argue a lot about how the GM is overworked and that it slows the game, and whether its worth having.

You can get by without it just fine, but when you have a situation involving obvious high ground like a fortress, hill, or flying-carpet-gunship, it's very weird not have it. Having extended bow and vision range from your castle tower on a hilltop is one of the reasons why they were built in the first place.

We (well, I) put a -2 to hit if the target is outside the first range band and the gradient is 4:1 or worse (ie, 25 feet up at 100 foot range is 4:1). Gets the point across and I can divide by 4 as its just half twice. Adjusting range itself is mechanically harder and adding a dice modifier is functionally similar.

[CrimsonKnight]

Moppy wrote:

I find new players are surprised by the lack of penalty in RAW for shooting up. So, I do not consider it a bad rule to have. We can however argue a lot about how the GM is overworked and that it slows the game, and whether its worth having.

You can get by without it just fine, but when you have a situation involving obvious high ground like a fortress, hill, or flying-carpet-gunship, it's very weird not have it. Having extended bow and vision range from your castle tower on a hilltop is one of the reasons why they were built in the first place.

We (well, I) put a -2 to hit if the target is outside the first range band and the gradient is 4:1 or worse (ie, 25 feet up at 100 foot range is 4:1). Gets the point across and I can divide by 4 as its just half twice. Adjusting range itself is mechanically harder and adding a dice modifier is functionally similar.

that is fine that is what home brew rules are all about. If your table likes it great! all being said it is not RAW and some table may find it slows the game.

[Dubious Scholar]

The only penalty needed for shooting up is to just calculate the distance in three dimensions, imo.

[Gortle]

Sagiam wrote:

Flight is an exception because flight is always an exception this edition. The earliest anyone gets temporary flight is 7th. The earliest anyone gets perma-flight is 17. As it stands the eidolon already is getting perma-flight 1 level earlier than anyone else. I could definitely see evolution surge's flight getting dropped to 4th level; so you can get it one level earlier than stormwind flight; seventh(because you can only use it on the eidolon), but there's no way temporary and perma-flight are going to be allowed at levels earlier then these.

It starts a bit earlier than that.

Glide is available in ancestry feats
No damage from falling.
Or controlled falling in a glide.
Levitate is like speed zero flight a 3rd level spell
From 7ft level it kicks up woth proper flight but limited duration

There is no reason a low level Flight Feat couldn't be made.

[Sagiam]

Gortle wrote:

Sagiam wrote:

Flight is an exception because flight is always an exception this edition. The earliest anyone gets temporary flight is 7th. The earliest anyone gets perma-flight is 17. As it stands the eidolon already is getting perma-flight 1 level earlier than anyone else. I could definitely see evolution surge's flight getting dropped to 4th level; so you can get it one level earlier than stormwind flight; seventh(because you can only use it on the eidolon), but there's no way temporary and perma-flight are going to be allowed at levels earlier then these.

It starts a bit earlier than that.

Glide is available in ancestry feats
No damage from falling.
Or controlled falling in a glide.
Levitate is like speed zero flight a 3rd level spell
From 7ft level it kicks up woth proper flight but limited duration

There is no reason a low level Flight Feat couldn't be made.

Unless some rules about catching air currents and updrafts are printed (which I don't see happening), I don't see glide as flight. It's just fancy slow fall and can be situationally useful, but it takes a fifth level ancestry feat, and you can't move upwards with it.

For an ability that does let you move upwards let's take a look at levitate, a third level spell that let's you move 30 feet per entire round straight up as long as you do nothing else.
But this ability takes a 3rd level spell slot, which means that Paizo has balanced this ability to be as powerful, useful, and requiring as much resource expenditure as a FIREBALL.

Which makes for a good example of how much they value flight this edition. And I don't see a theoretical levitate style pseudo-flight not being made irrelevant by a good climb speed.

[Dubious Scholar]

Leshy Glide can be used to do some shenanigans for sure... but only with additional resource investment. You need a way to get high up in the first place. If there's like, a wall you can climb and jump off of, or you have some other ability that can go up fast... sure, you can psuedo-fly to negate obstacles, and possibly fight from the sky while laughing at enemies.

[Gortle]

Sagiam wrote:

Gortle wrote:

Sagiam wrote:

Flight is an exception because flight is always an exception this edition. The earliest anyone gets temporary flight is 7th. The earliest anyone gets perma-flight is 17. As it stands the eidolon already is getting perma-flight 1 level earlier than anyone else. I could definitely see evolution surge's flight getting dropped to 4th level; so you can get it one level earlier than stormwind flight; seventh(because you can only use it on the eidolon), but there's no way temporary and perma-flight are going to be allowed at levels earlier then these.

It starts a bit earlier than that.

Glide is available in ancestry feats
No damage from falling.
Or controlled falling in a glide.
Levitate is like speed zero flight a 3rd level spell
From 7ft level it kicks up woth proper flight but limited duration

There is no reason a low level Flight Feat couldn't be made.

Unless some rules about catching air currents and updrafts are printed (which I don't see happening), I don't see glide as flight. It's just fancy slow fall and can be situationally useful, but it takes a fifth level ancestry feat, and you can't move upwards with it.

For an ability that does let you move upwards let's take a look at levitate, a third level spell that let's you move 30 feet per entire round straight up as long as you do nothing else.
But this ability takes a 3rd level spell slot, which means that Paizo has balanced this ability to be as powerful, useful, and requiring as much resource expenditure as a FIREBALL.

Which makes for a good example of how much they value flight this edition. And I don't see a theoretical levitate style pseudo-flight not being made irrelevant by a good climb speed.

These are precusors to real flight. They make obvious starting points for example if you wanted to make flight as a scaling level 2 feat or a base ability of your eidolon. Then you start with no falling damage as you have wings. Higher levels this becomes limited then full flight.