Strengths of the current summoner

[Pronate11]

Verzen wrote:

So is it even a 'dragon' if we don't even get dragon traits either? No. It's just a normal, boring human if they dont even get their racial traits.

Because as we all know, the average human has very high physical stats, speaks draconic, and has a breath weapon.

[Ravingdork]

Verzen wrote:

Now that they finally created the summoner class, the Eidolon, which was the crunchiest crunch of all of crunch in PF1, is a shadow of its former self. It's a pregen. You cant modify it at all. And no, selecting evolution feats 1) Are not nearly the same thing and 2) You dont get nearly enough of them and 3) You can't modify or control what exactly your Eidolon is at all. You need to work in a specific little package that they put up and that just isn't fun. It's incredibly disappointing for a game BASED on crunch.

I don't think this is going to be nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Why? Because we're not seeing half the class feats yet. I'm sure there will be one that adds a breath weapon to the eidolon (if not right away, before too long). PF2E is set up in such a way that it would be extremely easy for them to add unlimited feats to expand the kinds of eidolons you can create.

That being said, I do agree that there are only so many feats to go around, so maybe the summoner could use an extra class ability that grants them a couple bonus feats with the Evolution trait. Something similar to the fighter's Combat Flexibility and Improved Flexibility perhaps.

[Verzen]

Pronate11 wrote:

Verzen wrote:

So is it even a 'dragon' if we don't even get dragon traits either? No. It's just a normal, boring human if they dont even get their racial traits.

Because as we all know, the average human has very high physical stats, speaks draconic, and has a breath weapon.

You can get all of that with just a kobold lol

[Pronate11]

Verzen wrote:

Pronate11 wrote:

Verzen wrote:

So is it even a 'dragon' if we don't even get dragon traits either? No. It's just a normal, boring human if they dont even get their racial traits.

Because as we all know, the average human has very high physical stats, speaks draconic, and has a breath weapon.

You can get all of that with just a kobold lol

so you can represent a dragon with a small, humanoid dragon if we just make it large and not humanoid. Genius!

[Ravingdork]

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

At least I could design it however I wanted to design it rather than paizo telling me, "You must only have an angel, a beast, a dragon, or a phantom. Can't be anything else!"

Way to be disingenuous, Paizo hasn't said that at all.

We have a sampling of options for the purposes of playtesting, there's going to be more in the final, there's most likely going to be more released in later books as well.

Agreed. It doesn't sound like you read the playtest document very closely, Verzen. They clearly state that they will have the following frames at launch:

Arcane eidolons include dragon eidolons, construct eidolons, and amalgam eidolons. Divine eidolons include representatives of the many families of divine servitors, such as angels, demons, and psychopomps (note that this is not a complete list). Occult eidolons include phantoms as well as "far stranger beings from beyond mortal comprehension." Primal eidolons include beasts, elementals, fey, and plants.

That covers pretty much all the different types of creatures in the Bestiaries. I'm just not seeing very many of the same limits you seem to be. We probably won't get everything at launch, but I'll bet you there will very few creative limitations after five years.

[Verzen]

Ravingdork wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

At least I could design it however I wanted to design it rather than paizo telling me, "You must only have an angel, a beast, a dragon, or a phantom. Can't be anything else!"

Way to be disingenuous, Paizo hasn't said that at all.

We have a sampling of options for the purposes of playtesting, there's going to be more in the final, there's most likely going to be more released in later books as well.

Agreed. It doesn't sound like you read the playtest document very closely, Verzen. They clearly state that they will have the following frames at launch:

Arcane eidolons include dragon eidolons, construct eidolons, and amalgam eidolons. Divine eidolons include representatives of the many families of divine servitors, such as angels, demons, and psychopomps (note that this is not a complete list). Occult eidolons include phantoms as well as "far stranger beings from beyond mortal comprehension." Primal eidolons include beasts, elementals, fey, and plants.

That covers pretty much all the different types of creatures in the Bestiaries. I'm just not seeing very many of the same limits you seem to be. We probably won't get everything at launch, but I'll bet you there will very few creative limitations after five years.

Oh I read that, certainly. Do NOT mistake the fact I didn't read that. I just didn't want to type up all the various pregens they have planned. I HATE pregens and refuse to play any pregens because I LOVE being creative with the mechanics. I find more fun in that than actually physically playing the class. Weird, right? I am a MECHANICS person. I love maths and mechanics and that's why I play.

[KrispyXIV]

Verzen wrote:

Oh I read that, certainly. Do NOT mistake the fact I didn't read that. I just didn't want to type up all the various pregens they have planned. I HATE pregens and refuse to play any pregens because I LOVE being creative with the mechanics. I find more fun in that than actually physically playing the class. Weird, right? I am a MECHANICS person. I love maths and mechanics and that's why I play.

I primarily DM, so most of my player side experience is designing characters, which I find fun. I rarely get to play, but when I do I'm very excited about it. But as you say, building characters is probably the most fun I have with the process.

I'm also something of an optimizer. I don't mean I set out to build the best character, but I find an image in my head, build a story, and then assemble the best mechanics to fit it.

Currently, I find the Summoner as written is very good for supporting building a wealth of characters and Eidolons.

I just find that small distinctions, like skills and natural attacks, are every bit as informative of the mechanics of the Eidolon as bigger ones.

[Verzen]

Quote:

I'm also something of an optimizer. I don't mean I set out to build the best character, but I find an image in my head, build a story, and then assemble the best mechanics to fit it.

Currently, I find the Summoner as written is very good for supporting building a wealth of characters and Eidolons.

What's so wrong with my idea then?

I LOVE how they are allowing us to essentially design what kind of attacks our Eidolons use. GREAT. LOVE that. But I also want them to go a step further and allow us to create our own body design. What if I want an ice ooze? Well, I should be able to, from level 1, have an ooze resistant to ice that has ice attacks, and ooze traits.

And they should give the Eidolons the traits associated with the ancestry of the creature automatically to help differentiate them. If you can precision damage an ooze, it doesn't make much sense. If you can paralyze a dragon, it doesn't make much sense.

[Verzen]

That's like being able to heal an undead with the heal spell. It would break a bit of immersion.

[KrispyXIV]

Verzen wrote:

What's so wrong with my idea then?

Its overly complicated, breaks the design paradigms of PF2E, overloads low level characters with higher level abilities, and most of all it isn't actually necessary for things to work so long as the player is flexible in their thinking.

I would be shocked beyond belief if an Eidolon got something as powerful as immunity to precision damage at level 1, Ooze or no Ooze.

[Ravingdork]

Yeah, I'm not looking forward to a million new after-thought mechanics like in First Edition.

I like the modular system of Second Edition that STILL allows for a theoretically unlimited number of diverse and unique options.

[Verzen]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Verzen wrote:

What's so wrong with my idea then?

Its overly complicated, breaks the design paradigms of PF2E, overloads low level characters with higher level abilities, and most of all it isn't actually necessary for things to work so long as the player is flexible in their thinking.

I would be shocked beyond belief if an Eidolon got something as powerful as immunity to precision damage at level 1, Ooze or no Ooze.

It's as overly complicated as.. what exactly? It's literally exactly like our current feat system with some front loading for flavor options. How exactly is that over complicated? What part of, "Choose from this list" is hard to understand? I am genuinely curious. You can't claim something is over complicated without explaining how exactly it is.

[Verzen]

Quote:

overloads low level characters with higher level abilities

Where did I say this? At all? lol

Quote:

I would be shocked beyond belief if an Eidolon got something as powerful as immunity to precision damage at level 1, Ooze or no Ooze.

If they both share HP, just because your Eidolon is immune to precision damage.. doesn't mean you are.

[Verzen]

Ravingdork wrote:

Yeah, I'm not looking forward to a million new after-thought mechanics like in First Edition.

I like the modular system of Second Edition that STILL allows for a theoretically unlimited number of diverse and unique options.

Except our Eidolon creation experience is incredibly dull.

[KrispyXIV]

Verzen wrote:

Where did I say this? At all? lol

You've multiple times now asked for broad immunities or resistances to various damage types and effects based on Eidolon type.

These things are valued as higher level effects in PF2E, and when they appear at low levels it is generally very restricted.

[Verzen]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Verzen wrote:

What's so wrong with my idea then?

Its overly complicated, breaks the design paradigms of PF2E, overloads low level characters with higher level abilities, and most of all it isn't actually necessary for things to work so long as the player is flexible in their thinking.

I would be shocked beyond belief if an Eidolon got something as powerful as immunity to precision damage at level 1, Ooze or no Ooze.

In fact, I'd be completely comfortable with our Eidolon being as powerful as an AC if we got things like immunity to precision damage as an ooze Eidolon or other traits like undead get harm heals it etc etc.

Give us some flavor I am willing to be less powerful for some of that cool flavor.

[Verzen]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Where did I say this? At all? lol

You've multiple times now asked for broad immunities or resistances to various damage types and effects based on Eidolon type.

These things are valued as higher level effects in PF2E, and when they appear at low levels it is generally very restricted.

You mean resistance to energy attacks? Which a level 1 tempest oracle gets? Or some of the ancestries start out with? Oh wow. So much OP.

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

But I also want them to go a step further and allow us to create our own body design.

You CAN do that though. You want to make your Elemental Eidolon a sexy blue lady? You'll be able to do that.

Verzen wrote:

And they should give the Eidolons the traits associated with the ancestry of the creature automatically to help differentiate them. If you can precision damage an ooze, it doesn't make much sense. If you can paralyze a dragon, it doesn't make much sense.

Ah, there we have it.

And no.

You're not playing an NPC, you don't get those abilities that would frankly be OP to have on a PC. Play an ooze because you want to play an ooze. It doesn't break anything. Just like not letting Eidolons have a bunch of attacks and pounce doesn't break anything.

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Where did I say this? At all? lol

You've multiple times now asked for broad immunities or resistances to various damage types and effects based on Eidolon type.

These things are valued as higher level effects in PF2E, and when they appear at low levels it is generally very restricted.

You mean resistance to energy attacks? Which a level 1 tempest oracle gets? Or some of the ancestries start out with? Oh wow. So much OP.

And Immunities, and just now asking for hypothetical ooze Eidolons to be immune to crits (seriously OP), or for Dragon Eidolons to be immune to sleep and paralysis.

Edit: You said Precision damage, not crits, but my points still stands.

[OrochiFuror]

You can have what you want with the current system, just balanced. Innate traits are often going to be a hard no if they come with crazy passives, resistance will be 1\2 level max, and any non physical damage will either be single digit like the angels holy damage or maybe reduced to d4 like Phoenix stance. Your going to have to curb your expectations, what your imagining is your level 10 Eidolon, you need to work backwards some to a healthy starting point.

[Verzen]

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

But I also want them to go a step further and allow us to create our own body design.

You CAN do that though. You want to make your Elemental Eidolon a sexy blue lady? You'll be able to do that.

Verzen wrote:

And they should give the Eidolons the traits associated with the ancestry of the creature automatically to help differentiate them. If you can precision damage an ooze, it doesn't make much sense. If you can paralyze a dragon, it doesn't make much sense.

Ah, there we have it.

And no.

You're not playing an NPC, you don't get those abilities that would frankly be OP to have on a PC. Play an ooze because you want to play an ooze. It doesn't break anything. Just like not letting Eidolons have a bunch of attacks and pounce doesn't break anything.

There is a HUGE difference between having an Eidolon lawnmower and having a few defensive traits that don't really matter to killing enemies. My Eidolons precision immunity wouldn't make ME immune to precision damage. Just my Eidolon. If we share HP, just target the summoner with it. Pounce and having 8 attacks was so much more powerful than that BECAUSE it was offensive and it was a lawnmower. It wasn't defensive.

[Verzen]

You are comparing apples to oranges.

[Pronate11]

Verzen wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Where did I say this? At all? lol

You've multiple times now asked for broad immunities or resistances to various damage types and effects based on Eidolon type.

These things are valued as higher level effects in PF2E, and when they appear at low levels it is generally very restricted.

You mean resistance to energy attacks? Which a level 1 tempest oracle gets? Or some of the ancestries start out with? Oh wow. So much OP.

In fact, I'd be completely comfortable with our Eidolon being as powerful as an AC if we got things like immunity to precision damage as an ooze Eidolon

you literally just asked for a broad IMMUNITY, presumably at level one.

[Verzen]

Pronate11 wrote:

Verzen wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Where did I say this? At all? lol

You've multiple times now asked for broad immunities or resistances to various damage types and effects based on Eidolon type.

These things are valued as higher level effects in PF2E, and when they appear at low levels it is generally very restricted.

You mean resistance to energy attacks? Which a level 1 tempest oracle gets? Or some of the ancestries start out with? Oh wow. So much OP.

In fact, I'd be completely comfortable with our Eidolon being as powerful as an AC if we got things like immunity to precision damage as an ooze Eidolon you literally just asked for a broad IMMUNITY, presumably at level one.

Yeah. As our schtick.

You guys would probably be like, "Why do fighters get to have expert attack at level 1 while everyone else gets trained? That's no fair!"

Or "Why do you rangers get reduced MAP? That's no fair. No one else gets that!"

Well, I want to feel like I actually am in control of an actual monster. Not a monster by name only.

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

But I also want them to go a step further and allow us to create our own body design.

You CAN do that though. You want to make your Elemental Eidolon a sexy blue lady? You'll be able to do that.

Verzen wrote:

And they should give the Eidolons the traits associated with the ancestry of the creature automatically to help differentiate them. If you can precision damage an ooze, it doesn't make much sense. If you can paralyze a dragon, it doesn't make much sense.

Ah, there we have it.

And no.

You're not playing an NPC, you don't get those abilities that would frankly be OP to have on a PC. Play an ooze because you want to play an ooze. It doesn't break anything. Just like not letting Eidolons have a bunch of attacks and pounce doesn't break anything.

There is a HUGE difference between having an Eidolon lawnmower and having a few defensive traits that don't really matter to killing enemies. My Eidolons precision immunity wouldn't make ME immune to precision damage. Just my Eidolon. If we share HP, just target the summoner with it. Pounce and having 8 attacks was so much more powerful than that BECAUSE it was offensive and it was a lawnmower. It wasn't defensive.

Saying they could make the Eidolon overpowered as much as they want because the Summoner is gonna be this huge, useless liability is not only a major assumption on your part, it's also not a legitimate argument.

[Verzen]

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

But I also want them to go a step further and allow us to create our own body design.

You CAN do that though. You want to make your Elemental Eidolon a sexy blue lady? You'll be able to do that.

Verzen wrote:

And they should give the Eidolons the traits associated with the ancestry of the creature automatically to help differentiate them. If you can precision damage an ooze, it doesn't make much sense. If you can paralyze a dragon, it doesn't make much sense.

Ah, there we have it.

And no.

You're not playing an NPC, you don't get those abilities that would frankly be OP to have on a PC. Play an ooze because you want to play an ooze. It doesn't break anything. Just like not letting Eidolons have a bunch of attacks and pounce doesn't break anything.

There is a HUGE difference between having an Eidolon lawnmower and having a few defensive traits that don't really matter to killing enemies. My Eidolons precision immunity wouldn't make ME immune to precision damage. Just my Eidolon. If we share HP, just target the summoner with it. Pounce and having 8 attacks was so much more powerful than that BECAUSE it was offensive and it was a lawnmower. It wasn't defensive.

Saying they could make the Eidolon overpowered as much as they want because the Summoner is gonna be this huge, useless liability is not only a major assumption on your part, it's also not a legitimate argument.

Yeah your strawman is noted. If you have no counter argument, construct one made of straw! Works 200% of the time!

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

Yeah. As our schtick.

You guys would probably be like, "Why do fighters get to have expert attack at level 1 while everyone else gets trained? That's no fair!"

Or "Why do you rangers get reduced MAP? That's no fair. No one else gets that!"

Well, I want to feel like I actually am in control of an actual monster. Not a monster by name only.

Not even remotely the same.

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

But I also want them to go a step further and allow us to create our own body design.

You CAN do that though. You want to make your Elemental Eidolon a sexy blue lady? You'll be able to do that.

Verzen wrote:

And they should give the Eidolons the traits associated with the ancestry of the creature automatically to help differentiate them. If you can precision damage an ooze, it doesn't make much sense. If you can paralyze a dragon, it doesn't make much sense.

Ah, there we have it.

And no.

You're not playing an NPC, you don't get those abilities that would frankly be OP to have on a PC. Play an ooze because you want to play an ooze. It doesn't break anything. Just like not letting Eidolons have a bunch of attacks and pounce doesn't break anything.

There is a HUGE difference between having an Eidolon lawnmower and having a few defensive traits that don't really matter to killing enemies. My Eidolons precision immunity wouldn't make ME immune to precision damage. Just my Eidolon. If we share HP, just target the summoner with it. Pounce and having 8 attacks was so much more powerful than that BECAUSE it was offensive and it was a lawnmower. It wasn't defensive.

Saying they could make the Eidolon overpowered as much as they want because the Summoner is gonna be this huge, useless liability is not only a major assumption on your part, it's also not a legitimate argument.

Yeah your strawman is noted. If you have no counter argument, construct one made of straw! Works 200% of the time!

Insults definitely aren't helping your argument.

You're claiming it's okay to give the Eidolon powerful abilities such as immunities because you view the Summoner as just a liability.

[Verzen]

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

But I also want them to go a step further and allow us to create our own body design.

You CAN do that though. You want to make your Elemental Eidolon a sexy blue lady? You'll be able to do that.

Verzen wrote:

And they should give the Eidolons the traits associated with the ancestry of the creature automatically to help differentiate them. If you can precision damage an ooze, it doesn't make much sense. If you can paralyze a dragon, it doesn't make much sense.

Ah, there we have it.

And no.

You're not playing an NPC, you don't get those abilities that would frankly be OP to have on a PC. Play an ooze because you want to play an ooze. It doesn't break anything. Just like not letting Eidolons have a bunch of attacks and pounce doesn't break anything.

There is a HUGE difference between having an Eidolon lawnmower and having a few defensive traits that don't really matter to killing enemies. My Eidolons precision immunity wouldn't make ME immune to precision damage. Just my Eidolon. If we share HP, just target the summoner with it. Pounce and having 8 attacks was so much more powerful than that BECAUSE it was offensive and it was a lawnmower. It wasn't defensive.

Saying they could make the Eidolon overpowered as much as they want because the Summoner is gonna be this huge, useless liability is not only a major assumption on your part, it's also not a legitimate argument.

Yeah your strawman is noted. If you have no counter argument, construct one made of straw! Works 200% of the time!

Insults definitely aren't helping your argument.

You're claiming it's okay to give the Eidolon powerful abilities such as immunities because you view the Summoner as just a liability.

Saying that you misconstrued my argument is an insult? Really?

I did NOT say that Eidolons can have unlimited power as long as the summoner is a liability. I am saying that the Eidolon needs something that actually makes them INTO that monster. Not just a doppleganger of that monster. I want to feel like I am actually in control of an ACTUAL monster. ACTUAL. MONSTER. That's the niche. That's what should make us stand out.

We have AC classes. Want to play a class with a pet? Druid is right there for you. Full spellcasting and everything. But unless there is something about this class that really pops or stands out from the rest as its own UNIQUE construction, why play it over a druid?

[Verzen]

It's funny how you guys are all like, "It's totally fine if you own a dragon. Oh but the dragon can't fly... oh and the dragon gets none of its resistances.. Oh and the dragon only has the shape of a dragon.. at least it gets fire breath though. "

Is it really a dragon at that point? If I am taxonomically defining what a cat is and I said, "Oh but it doesn't have incisors. Oh it doesn't have fur or claws either. Nor does it have a tail. Oh and it's bipedal.. Oh and doesn't meow either.

Is it really a cat at that point? No. If you remove every aspect that makes it that thing, it ceases being that thing.

[KrispyXIV]

On Topic -

Strengths of the Summoner include Spellcasting that isn't actually that bad, for the most part.

For one thing, you get a fully relevant spell (on level, or level -1) for four encounters in the adventuring day. For most adventuring days, thats a big spell per level - which isn't far off from what other spellcasters are budgeting.

For a full half your characters life, those spells are just as effective as any casters for whatever you want to do with them. For the rest, you have fully open access to all of the none-save and attack based spells.

This also means you get to access all of the cool utility associated with whatever list you pick.

Moreover, you unlock access to all the associated consumables as well. Scrolls are extremely potent now, and underutilized in general.

If you want more spells, you're stats are perfect for picking up either Sorcerer (which can add any spell list you like) or bard (fantastic multiclass, especially for a Summoner). As well, since there aren't a ton of must have Summoner Feats, you can generally afford several choices of feat from your chosen class if you want to go more deeply in.

[Pronate11]

Verzen wrote:

It's funny how you guys are all like, "It's totally fine if you own a dragon. Oh but the dragon can't fly... oh and the dragon gets none of its resistances.. Oh and the dragon only has the shape of a dragon.. at least it gets fire breath though. "

Is it really a dragon at that point? If I am taxonomically defining what a cat is and I said, "Oh but it doesn't have incisors. Oh it doesn't have fur or claws either. Nor does it have a tail. Oh and it's bipedal.. Oh and doesn't meow either.

Is it really a cat at that point? No. If you remove every aspect that makes it that thing, it ceases being that thing.

And you're amusing the won't get that and never will. there will be other options in the official release. You want those options? say you want them in the survey. Want a way to fly at lvl 1? ask for it, probable with a reduction of damage dice. Don't complain about a lack of options when we don't have all the options yet.

[Verzen]

Pronate11 wrote:

Verzen wrote:

It's funny how you guys are all like, "It's totally fine if you own a dragon. Oh but the dragon can't fly... oh and the dragon gets none of its resistances.. Oh and the dragon only has the shape of a dragon.. at least it gets fire breath though. "

Is it really a dragon at that point? If I am taxonomically defining what a cat is and I said, "Oh but it doesn't have incisors. Oh it doesn't have fur or claws either. Nor does it have a tail. Oh and it's bipedal.. Oh and doesn't meow either.

Is it really a cat at that point? No. If you remove every aspect that makes it that thing, it ceases being that thing.

And you're amusing the won't get that and never will. there will be other options in the official release. You want those options? say you want them in the survey. Want a way to fly at lvl 1? ask for it, probable with a reduction of damage dice. Don't complain about a lack of options when we don't have all the options yet.

If the playtest is anything to go after, we have far less options than the unchained Summoner did. And the unchained summoner already restricted a bunch of stuff.

[KrispyXIV]

Verzen wrote:

If the playtest is anything to go after, we have far less options than the unchained Summoner did. And the unchained summoner already restricted a bunch of stuff.

I would encourage you to go reread Mark's posts in the main thread for this subforum. At one point, he goes through and lists all of the evolutions that were available to the PF1 summoner, talks about which and how many of them are already represented in some form or another, and identifies the rest.

He is aware of the options that previously existed, and has essentially made a checklist.

It seems unlikely you won't be able to do everything you could in 1E, in some form or another.

[Pronate11]

Verzen wrote:

Pronate11 wrote:

Verzen wrote:

It's funny how you guys are all like, "It's totally fine if you own a dragon. Oh but the dragon can't fly... oh and the dragon gets none of its resistances.. Oh and the dragon only has the shape of a dragon.. at least it gets fire breath though. "

Is it really a dragon at that point? If I am taxonomically defining what a cat is and I said, "Oh but it doesn't have incisors. Oh it doesn't have fur or claws either. Nor does it have a tail. Oh and it's bipedal.. Oh and doesn't meow either.

Is it really a cat at that point? No. If you remove every aspect that makes it that thing, it ceases being that thing.

And you're amusing the won't get that and never will. there will be other options in the official release. You want those options? say you want them in the survey. Want a way to fly at lvl 1? ask for it, probable with a reduction of damage dice. Don't complain about a lack of options when we don't have all the options yet.

If the playtest is anything to go after, we have far less options than the unchained Summoner did. And the unchained summoner already restricted a bunch of stuff.

how many bloodlines did the play-test sorcerer have?

[Verzen]

Pronate11 wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Pronate11 wrote:

Verzen wrote:

It's funny how you guys are all like, "It's totally fine if you own a dragon. Oh but the dragon can't fly... oh and the dragon gets none of its resistances.. Oh and the dragon only has the shape of a dragon.. at least it gets fire breath though. "

Is it really a dragon at that point? If I am taxonomically defining what a cat is and I said, "Oh but it doesn't have incisors. Oh it doesn't have fur or claws either. Nor does it have a tail. Oh and it's bipedal.. Oh and doesn't meow either.

Is it really a cat at that point? No. If you remove every aspect that makes it that thing, it ceases being that thing.

And you're amusing the won't get that and never will. there will be other options in the official release. You want those options? say you want them in the survey. Want a way to fly at lvl 1? ask for it, probable with a reduction of damage dice. Don't complain about a lack of options when we don't have all the options yet.

If the playtest is anything to go after, we have far less options than the unchained Summoner did. And the unchained summoner already restricted a bunch of stuff.

how many bloodlines did the play-test sorcerer have?

Dude. It's literally not about, "How many packages did something have"

The EIDOLON.. itself... was customizable. In PF2 it's not. It's literally a pregen.

[Thaliak]

I was excited about this thread until it turned into an argument about customization that's been done in other threads.

Siegfriedliner, I like your list of positives. I'd add "it allows people to dabble in spellcasting and martial capabilities at the same time, which is nice for people who have trouble deciding what to focus on or want to contribute in any situation" and "because summoners change their spell repertoire every level, it might be more forgiving to poor decisions than other spontaneous spellcasters."

[siegfriedliner]

Its inevitable its really hard to encourage people to be positive, it seems the summoner remains divisive.

[KrispyXIV]

siegfriedliner wrote:

Its inevitable its really hard to encourage people to be positive, it seems the summoner remains divisive.

I'm just easily led astray. And distracted. I've said a lot of good things about the Summoner in various places, I just haven't had a chance to gush further here.

It does a lot of things I like, but more than anything it currently is a class I can play and the general build of it isn't going to ruin anyone else's fun. I can be good at a lot of things if not the best, and I'm not going to steal anyone's identity.

I don't think it's perfect, and I think we can get some more customization added in somewhere because currently it does feel like I could play the class to 20 and never feel like I need to pick up an Evolution for my eidolon, since its math is fine by default and the identity for my eidolon is written and described.

Is that a Strength of the class, or not, that I don't need to really invest for my Eidolon to be mostly sufficient? Its considered a strength for Fighters and other classes, so it likely should be here as well.

[Xenocrat]

This thread is fondly reminding me of the champion PF2 playtest. Needs more dramatic promises to never play again if their demands aren’t met, though.

[Verzen]

Quote:

It does a lot of things I like, but more than anything it currently is a class I can play and the general build of it isn't going to ruin anyone else's fun. I can be good at a lot of things if not the best, and I'm not going to steal anyone's identity.

At the cost of pretty much not having an identity ourselves.

[Thaliak]

Siegfriedliner, thanks for trying to encourage some positivity. I'm all for identifying issues with both classes and discussing ways they can be fixed, but it's also valuable and fun to ask what we can do with the imperfect creations we have.

KrispyXIV, I'd definitely call the ability to ignore evolution feats a benefit because that reduces the need for system mastery and allows players who want more skills or spells to get them through archetypes.

Since it gets an extra action a turn and can ride its eidolon or use Tandem Move to stay close to the front lines, the summoner should excel at using bard compositions, as others have noted. For the same reason, it loses less than most classes by sustaining spells.

For me, the most interesting sustainable spell is Illusory Creature, which can provide flanking and two extra attacks that do not affect the summoner's MAP. The illusion can be disbelieved and is easy to kill, but the spell has enough out-of-combat applications I can see a player including it in their small repertoire regardless.

The other spells that stood out to me were Flaming Sphere, which has the potential to provide extra damage that isn't affected by MAP; and Aqueous Orb, which might be able to drag melee enemies away from the front line. I'm hoping both spells' ability to trigger multiple saves will help compensate for summoners' lower casting proficiency.

A summoner might also get more use out of the "sustain-to-grow" spell Bless and the Abjurer Focus spell Protective Ward.

Am I missing any sustained spells that summoners might find worthwhile? I haven't played since this edition's playtest, so it's hard for me to evaluate spells.

[KrispyXIV]

Thaliak wrote:

A summoner might also get more use out of the "sustain-to-grow" spell Bless and the Abjurer Focus spell Protective Ward.

I'm looking at having my Eidolon take Magical Evolution and Greater Magical Evolution, and it occurred to me that my Eidolon makes and infinitely better Bless caster than my Cleric ever did :)

[Martialmasters]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Thaliak wrote:

A summoner might also get more use out of the "sustain-to-grow" spell Bless and the Abjurer Focus spell Protective Ward.

I'm looking at having my Eidolon take Magical Evolution and Greater Magical Evolution, and it occurred to me that my Eidolon makes and infinitely better Bless caster than my Cleric ever did :)

well of course. you are in melee and the other martials are much more valuable for doing damage than your eidolon. and the cleric has many more spell slots to do something useful with.

*smacks eidolon in the face*, go bless the useful ones.

[KrispyXIV]

Martialmasters wrote:

well of course. you are in melee and the other martials are much more valuable for doing damage than your eidolon. and the cleric has many more spell slots to do something useful with.

*smacks eidolon in the face*, go bless the useful ones.

Seriously? Its a valid improvement on a Cleric doing the same thing, regardless of the relative power of Eidolons and other Martial characters, who, lacking their own Eidolons (or rather, a Summoner), should be superior in combat.

Maybe don't use your time tearing down legitimate positive feedback to grind this axe.

[Thaliak]

Using Bless with Magic Evolution makes sense. When I looked for other emanation spells that might be more powerful if they came from the eidolon rather than the summoner, I came across Reaper's Lantern, which can enfeeble undead characters or halve the amount of healing living creatures receive. I doubt that's worth spending a Level 8 feat on even in undead or cleric-heavy campaigns, but it might be thematic for a psychopomp or other herald of death.

So is Sepulchral Mask, which has a small chance to reduce enemies' Will for one round.

From an optimization standpoint, I'm not sure what to do with Greater Magical Evolution. My gut thought was, "Since the eidolon will be close to enemies most of the time, you should look for a powerful touch spell that lacks the incapacitation trait and treat the eidolon as a more action-efficient version of Reach Spell." I didn't find any. The closest I came was Shockwave, which generates a 15-foot cone that can knock enemies prone on a failed save and renders them flat-footed even if they succeed.

I imagine the eidolon could also get utility spells that you expect to cast frequently but don't want to commit spell slots to, such as Alarm, and in a desert campaign, Create Water; long-lasting buffs, such as Longstrider, which gives a +10 status bonus to speed for eight hours; short-range buffs, such as Blur; and counters that are more useful for the eidolon than the summoner, such as See Invisibility.

Edit: I missed that Greater Magical Evolution scales to give slots beyond 1st and 2nd level. That might open some more interesting options.

[KrispyXIV]

Thaliak wrote:

Edit: I missed that Greater Magical Evolution scales to give slots beyond 1st and 2nd level. That might open some more interesting options.

Yep. Its essentially a feat for an extra level -2 and level -3 slot, that can be used by your Eidolon instead of yourself.

It helps significantly that the base Magical Evolution is a path for the Eidolon to pick up the Shield cantrip, which it can make good use of.

[Gortle]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Thaliak wrote:

Edit: I missed that Greater Magical Evolution scales to give slots beyond 1st and 2nd level. That might open some more interesting options.

Yep. Its essentially a feat for an extra level -2 and level -3 slot, that can be used by your Eidolon instead of yourself.

It helps significantly that the base Magical Evolution is a path for the Eidolon to pick up the Shield cantrip, which it can make good use of.

I guess the shield cantrip works if you are in the situation regularily where you are giving all your actions to your eidolon.

Some thoughts:
True Strike
Mirror Image
Invisibility (greater) and Blink
The thought of casting a Battle Form on an Eidolon is amusing but suboptimal.
The Eidolon can Summon a Minion for itself?
Plenty of buffs
But also those spells which you don't like to cast so much because they require you to be in the front line.

You can use offensive spells as well as their spells DC is not too bad.
Hmmm a caster who wants to melee and can cast spells on themselves.