Eidolon's should benefit from Apex items and get better stats in general.

[Raveve]

While reading the class for my playtest games I noticed that Eidolons fall very behind on stats at the later levels. They start at 16 main stat and then to further exacerbate this they do not benefit from Apex Items. This leaves them at a disadvantage on their attack modifier when compared to martials at some levels. For a class trying to keep the Eidolon in parity with martial classes to not have those things means they feel inadequate when compared to them. Summoners have very limited spell casting so if their Eidolon falls behind martials because of stats they can feel underwhelming and less fun(this is my personal experience from playtesting). What does the community in general think?

[KrispyXIV]

I think the idea that, when the Summoner gets their Apex item the Eidolon should also get +1 to hit via some means, is likely probably not hotly contested.

How to implement is up in the air, but I think being more than 1 point behind on attack bonus is going to be universally unwanted.

Being behind at all is questionable - maybe it helps with keeping Eidolons a step behind full player characters and is valuable for party feel, but i could also be convinced otherwise.

I dont know that Eidolons need better attributes in general though.

[manbearscientist]

Apex items, yes. In general? I don't think it matters as much.

The difference between a 16 (no apex) and an 18 is:

-1 from 1 to 4 (4 levels)
-0 from 5 to 9 (5 levels)
-1 from 10 to 14 (5 levels)
-0 from 15 to 16 (2 levels)
-1 from 17 to 19 (3 levels)
-2 at 20.

The -2 at the very end almost doesn't matter. In general, a 16 would be down -1 for about half the game minus the Apex item. The Apex item alone changes the equation, making it so that it is at -1 for 12 levels of actual play versus being -1 for 9 and -0 for 10.

I don't think it needs both. Even just being able to benefit from an Apex item, you'd be tied for most of the game.

[siegfriedliner]

I think some customisation of eidolon stats in much the way that a pc customises its stats might be neat.

Maybe take 2 - 4 points from the pregen and tie them to a background/ability equivalent.

Something like Loud Roar — +2 Charisma and you ignore the shared language requirements of demoralise/intimidate

Strong Back - +2 strength and you can carry two additional load

Divine Messenger - +2 Wis and your base speed increases by 5

[Dubious Scholar]

My concern with stats is mainly that it doesn't seem like there's a good way for eidolons to do well with mental stats right now. Like beast eidolon can have at best 12 CHA when it gets its roar.

[KrispyXIV]

siegfriedliner wrote:

I think some customisation of eidolon stats in much the way that a pc customises its stats might be neat.

Maybe take 2 - 4 points from the pregen and tie them to a background/ability equivalent.

Something like Loud Roar — +2 Charisma and you ignore the shared language requirements of demoralise/intimidate

Strong Back - +2 strength and you can carry two additional load

Divine Messenger - +2 Wis and your base speed increases by 5

I actually really like this idea in concept (having your initial features tied to Attribute Boosts), but it feels like a luxury item.

My main concern would be that it is essentially fluff on top of Eidolon base forms, and it sounds like Summoner is going to have an issue with page space.

I dont know that I'd want this the expense of more potential evolution feats, for example.

[siegfriedliner]

KrispyXIV wrote:

siegfriedliner wrote:

I think some customisation of eidolon stats in much the way that a pc customises its stats might be neat.

Maybe take 2 - 4 points from the pregen and tie them to a background/ability equivalent.

Something like Loud Roar — +2 Charisma and you ignore the shared language requirements of demoralise/intimidate

Strong Back - +2 strength and you can carry two additional load

Divine Messenger - +2 Wis and your base speed increases by 5

I actually really like this idea in concept (having your initial features tied to Attribute Boosts), but it feels like a luxury item.

My main concern would be that it is essentially fluff on top of Eidolon base forms, and it sounds like Summoner is going to have an issue with page space.

I dont know that I'd want this the expense of more potential evolution feats, for example.

At the moment the eidolons are each nearly identical they have mostly the same stats, speed and no adaptions for their different forms or nature's and a level 1 they have one token ability to show they are different from each other.

They need some more customisation.

[Dubious Scholar]

Yes, but that can be accomplished by saying things like:
Summoner gets a level 1 eidolon feat at level 1
Eidolon stats have 2 ability boosts at level 1 to apply (and adjust baseline accordingly)
Just having different stat lines on them, it sounds like they're homogenized for the playtest atm.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'm in general agreement that better stats would be better for the game and the eidolon's power level.

PCs who start with a 16 in a stat are hardly helpless, though, and the Eidolon being on par with them is not the end of the world. The real necessity is something to make up for the Apex Item at high levels.

I'd still be happier if you could start with Str or Dex 18, but it's not too terrible if you can't.

[Amaya/Polaris]

There’s a whole section laying out which magic items benefit your Eidolon if you invest them, and it’s a pretty generous section. Seems to me they simply forgot to specify Apex boosts there. (Which I totally understand, seeing as I regularly forget that Apex items are a thing.)

[KrispyXIV]

Alfa/Polaris wrote:

There’s a whole section laying out which magic items benefit your Eidolon if you invest them, and it’s a pretty generous section. Seems to me they simply forgot to specify Apex boosts there. (Which I totally understand, seeing as I regularly forget that Apex items are a thing.)

I'd prefer if the Eidolon wasn't limited to the same Attribute as the Summoner honestly.

Much prefer a 17th level ability along the lines of "Apex Evolution - the first time you invest an Apex item, choose one of your Eidolons attributes and increase it by 2."

[Gortle]

KrispyXIV wrote:

I think the idea that, when the Summoner gets their Apex item the Eidolon should also get +1 to hit via some means, is likely probably not hotly contested.

How to implement is up in the air, but I think being more than 1 point behind on attack bonus is going to be universally unwanted.

Being behind at all is questionable - maybe it helps with keeping Eidolons a step behind full player characters and is valuable for party feel, but i could also be convinced otherwise.

The eidolon can be behind a little compared to the other characters - that can be OK. As long as the eodolon feels special and has some really cool abilities. At the moment it just doesn't feel special enough. Eidolons need a few cool abilities - like "pounce" but not as ridiculously over powered - to stand out, and make us feel good about them.

[KrispyXIV]

Gortle wrote:

At the moment it just doesn't feel special enough. Eidolons need a few cool abilities - like "pounce" but not as ridiculously over powered - to stand out, and make us feel good about them.

I think the Beast Eidolons charge is actually the intended "new implementation" for Pounce, and its pretty good for moving and attacking.

I'm hoping we'll see several of these more interesting attack routine/action enhancers like this and Draconic Fury available as evolutions as well.

[Dubious Scholar]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Gortle wrote:

At the moment it just doesn't feel special enough. Eidolons need a few cool abilities - like "pounce" but not as ridiculously over powered - to stand out, and make us feel good about them.

I think the Beast Eidolons charge is actually the intended "new implementation" for Pounce, and its pretty good for moving and attacking.

I'm hoping we'll see several of these more interesting attack routine/action enhancers like this and Draconic Fury available as evolutions as well.

Cat AC has an explicit Pounce ability too, which is Stride+Strike for one action.

I don't know if evolutions will have the same abilities available, but I would hope the final book has attack routine evolutions, yes.