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Cavern elves aren't drow no, drow are fairly distinctive in golarion and originally were warped by magics.
Also, elves can turn into drow, which is kinda fun.
You can find out more about them on pages 124-129 of the inner sea races book. It is for pf1e but like the other two inner sea books its lore is mostly still valid.
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Cavern Elf is generally for non-Drow who nevertheless might have lived underground. The Elves of Jinin in Tian Xia, for example, spent a very long time underground (it's how they wound up over in Tian Xia, in fact), but are definitively not Drow.
Drow might be either an Ancestry or Heritage when they show up with PF2 stats, and if a GM wants to homebrew a version of them Cavern Elf is not a bad starting place, but it does not in and of itself represent them.
Our main concern was not let the cavern elf mistaken for a drow and because so lynched asap.As far as I can tell, none of the current Elf Heritages change what the Elf looks like, so this should likely not be an issue.
Well, they don't absolutely require it. But the general Elf stuff says
Elves gradually adapt to their environment and their companions, and they often take on physical traits reflecting their surroundings. An elf who has dwelled in primeval forests for centuries, for example, might exhibit verdant hair and gnarled fingers, while one who’s lived in a desert might have golden pupils and skin.
So "You were born or spent many years in underground tunnels or caverns where light is scarce. You gain darkvision." (the Cavern Elf description) implies that they've been there long enough to get cosmetic changes. I'd expect them to be either grey or albino (can't decide which).
Of course, any particular Cavern Elf might have dwelt underground long enough to get darkvision and be grey, then dwelt in forests enough to change from grey to greenish without losing the darkvision yet. So there's plenty of room for variety.
Would people necessarily know what a drow looks like? A lavender skinned elf might draw some attention but I doubt people would be immediately hostile.
I could certainly imagine them being bought in as a rare heritage.
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So "You were born or spent many years in underground tunnels or caverns where light is scarce. You gain darkvision." (the Cavern Elf description) implies that they've been there long enough to get cosmetic changes. I'd expect them to be either grey or albino (can't decide which).
Of course, any particular Cavern Elf might have dwelt underground long enough to get darkvision and be grey, then dwelt in forests enough to change from grey to greenish without losing the darkvision yet. So there's plenty of room for variety.
True in general, but re-read the bit you quote. Their skin does not actually change color (at least not usually), only ancillary stuff changes. Note that the elf who dwells in a forest for centuries is described with hair color changes and a mild change in their fingers, not greenish skin.
This is also consistent with the art.
All of which is to say, no amount of this gets you to looking much like a drow.
Would people necessarily know what a drow looks like? A lavender skinned elf might draw some attention but I doubt people would be immediately hostile.
I could certainly imagine them being bought in as a rare heritage.
The events of Second Darkness publicized the Drow. They are now a known commodity, at least among scholars or people paying attention to that sort of thing.
True in general, but re-read the bit you quote. Their skin does not actually change color (at least not usually), only ancillary stuff changes. Note that the elf who dwells in a forest for centuries is described with hair color changes and a mild change in their fingers, not greenish skin.So "You were born or spent many years in underground tunnels or caverns where light is scarce. You gain darkvision." (the Cavern Elf description) implies that they've been there long enough to get cosmetic changes. I'd expect them to be either grey or albino (can't decide which).
Of course, any particular Cavern Elf might have dwelt underground long enough to get darkvision and be grey, then dwelt in forests enough to change from grey to greenish without losing the darkvision yet. So there's plenty of room for variety.
OTOH the elf who dwells in the desert is described with "golden pupils and skin." So the examples are 50-50.
All of which is to say, no amount of this gets you to looking much like a drow.
Oh, certainly. Even if they become charcoal grey all over, or albino, they'll cause no confusion with lavender.
I would imagine Cavern elves are what happens when an elf sits at the end of a tunnel, angrily scowling at drow for a few centuries.
Just to expand on what others said, I believe it's fair to say that Drow were Cavern Elves before becoming Drow, separating from Jinin Elves over the Demonology stuff that triggered the Drow transformation. Jinin (who are cast as very Lawful "Minkaian" Samurai cosplayers) do seem to be the only example of Cavern Elves existing in Golarion (and only example of non-Drow Elves living underground), although it's fair to say Elves are presented as adapting to new environments (13th level Ancestry Feat "Wandering Heart" even allowing to change "Environmental" Heritage Feat in only 1 week's time). Without Wandering Heart, Heritage Feats can't normally be Retrained, but fair to say that an Elf of ANY parentage growing up underground could spontaneously develop Cavern Elf Heritage / Darkvision. (pure RAW clearly doesn't present any impediment to freely choosing Heritage at character creation, but I'm just speaking in terms of setting consistency)
Skin tone and other coloration does seem presented as adapting to environs, although that can't be solely tied to just "Environmental" Heritages as some Elves have non-Environmental specific heritages. Probably fair to say there may be single "Environmental" heritage that is "typical" (but not universal) for given region, and there is "typical" appearance that goes along with this region... The rules aren't really strict on this, but that seems reasonable description of the general state of affairs on Golarion, which specific PCs can adhere to or diverge from.
cut down on the number of dancer ancestries that were so widespread in PF1.
Huh? Dancer ancestries?
cut down on the number of dancer ancestries that were so widespread in PF1.Huh? Dancer ancestries?
Presumably Dex/Cha, which is by far the most common stat spread from 1e.
Presumably Dex/Cha, which is by far the most common stat spread from 1e.cut down on the number of dancer ancestries that were so widespread in PF1.Huh? Dancer ancestries?
More specifically Dex/Cha/-Wis, i would imagine. Typically being depicted as an agile and social race (but one prone to bad decisions). This includes EVERY single race that is vaguely cat like gets that spread (catfolk, tiger skin walkers, and rakshasa tieflings), as well as ifrit and fetchlings.
If you get a set of races that are part of a set (4 elements, various blood lines, etc), you could be safe to assume that there was this kind of stat spread somewhere in there.
Presumably Dex/Cha, which is by far the most common stat spread from 1e.cut down on the number of dancer ancestries that were so widespread in PF1.Huh? Dancer ancestries?More specifically Dex/Cha/-Wis, i would imagine. Typically being depicted as an agile and social race (but one prone to bad decisions). This includes EVERY single race that is vaguely cat like gets that spread (catfolk, tiger skin walkers, and rakshasa tieflings), as well as ifrit and fetchlings.
If you get a set of races that are part of a set (4 elements, various blood lines, etc), you could be safe to assume that there was this kind of stat spread somewhere in there.
Hmmm... Never saw that spread and said to myself "now THERE sure is a dancer...". I must be missing something.
Agile + Charming. Kinda makes sense.
More on topic, while Cavern Elves aren't drow. I've always sort of figured "just take cavern elf" was intended to be a path to let someone play a drow without Paizo having to explicitly stat them up or name them.
Agile + Charming. Kinda makes sense.
Sounds like a stage magician, gamblers, ninja/spy, ect.
Now I do agree Cha gets more races/ancestries than other mental stats for some reason.
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There's a difference between known among scholars and people paying attention and known to the general public.
A drow in many places might pass without trouble, at least until rumours get passed on to someone in the know.
I mean, they were pretty recently revealed publicly. The evil, demon worshiping, weird-colored Elves from beneath the surface who want to steal you away into slavery.
Do you think, in a world with the printing press, that wasn't publicized really widely in every newspaper, broadsheet, and textbook on the people's of the Inner Sea? Because I'm pretty sure something that newsworthy got published a lot. The details may well have been deeply wrong, racist, or both in some of the sources in question, but people have sure as hell heard of them at this point unless they've been living somewhere without access to news from elsewhere (which is possible, I suspect many people in the Land of the Mammoth Lords haven't heard the news yet, for example), but the basics are pretty common knowledge at this point.
In game terms, Drow are Common, and knowing about them is around a DC 15 Society check. This is the same DC as a Nature check to know about a pony.
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There's a difference between known among scholars and people paying attention and known to the general public.
A drow in many places might pass without trouble, at least until rumours get passed on to someone in the know.
I mean, they were pretty recently revealed publicly. The evil, demon worshiping, weird-colored Elves from beneath the surface who want to steal you away into slavery.
Do you think, in a world with the printing press, that wasn't publicized really widely in every newspaper, broadsheet, and textbook on the people's of the Inner Sea? Because I'm pretty sure something that newsworthy got published a lot. The details may well have been deeply wrong, racist, or both in some of the sources in question, but people have sure as hell heard of them at this point unless they've been living somewhere without access to news from elsewhere (which is possible, I suspect many people in the Land of the Mammoth Lords haven't heard the news yet, for example), but the basics are pretty common knowledge at this point.
In game terms, Drow are Common, and knowing about them is around a DC 15 Society check. This is the same DC as a Nature check to know about a pony.
What people know of and believe might be very different though. While there are printing presses, there are also likely tabloids too.
I mean... "weird colored, demon worshiping underground elves"? Doesn't sound realistic. Must be some crazy hype or stories bored people tell their kids to get them to behave.
In a similar vein, I have heard of aliens (specifically greys). But if one walked up to me, I would be curious and try to make contact, since I don't know if it would really get the probe out.
In a similar vein, I have heard of aliens (specifically greys). But if one walked up to me, I would be curious and try to make contact, since I don't know if it would really get the probe out.
Hey buddy, where do those Chupacabra live? They anywhere near the Mngwa or the Elwetritsch?
LOL Next you're going to try to convince me Heliocentrism is real...
There's a difference between known among scholars and people paying attention and known to the general public.
A drow in many places might pass without trouble, at least until rumours get passed on to someone in the know.
I mean, they were pretty recently revealed publicly. The evil, demon worshiping, weird-colored Elves from beneath the surface who want to steal you away into slavery.
Do you think, in a world with the printing press, that wasn't publicized really widely in every newspaper, broadsheet, and textbook on the people's of the Inner Sea? Because I'm pretty sure something that newsworthy got published a lot. The details may well have been deeply wrong, racist, or both in some of the sources in question, but people have sure as hell heard of them at this point unless they've been living somewhere without access to news from elsewhere (which is possible, I suspect many people in the Land of the Mammoth Lords haven't heard the news yet, for example), but the basics are pretty common knowledge at this point.
In game terms, Drow are Common, and knowing about them is around a DC 15 Society check. This is the same DC as a Nature check to know about a pony.
What people know of and believe might be very different though. While there are printing presses, there are also likely tabloids too.
I mean... "weird colored, demon worshiping underground elves"? Doesn't sound realistic. Must be some crazy hype or stories bored people tell their kids to get them to behave.
In a similar vein, I have heard of aliens (specifically greys). But if one walked up to me, I would be curious and try to make contact, since I don't know if it would really get the probe out.
What seems particular crazy about that in the context of golarion? Demons, elves, and unground civilizations are all pretty well documented to exist. What about their combination makes it seem implausible?
Fair. More like: "Another weird underground race out to kill us all. Who can keep track?"
Well it's kind of like pointing to printing presses while ignoring things like penny dreadfuls. And printed items aren't exactly cheap so it limits who's reading them. Pathfinder Chronicles are chapbooks and those cost 50gp in PF1 figuring.
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What seems particular crazy about that in the context of golarion? Demons, elves, and unground civilizations are all pretty well documented to exist. What about their combination makes it seem implausible?
People thought that the platypus was an elaborate prank, since the shipping distance between Australia and Europe made sending a live one impractical. So people thought someone got creative with taxidermy by stitching some random animals together.
We, as players, have a near omniscient perspective. When we see the book have a line like "some rumors say that [this person had this shocking past]", we can think "well, they probably had that past, sine the writer probably wouldn't bring it up otherwise".
But people in setting? They have to deal with a world filled with rumors, incomplete information, intentional fabrication by anti-Kyonin factions, etc. And worst of all- BARDS, and their tendency to pay for their drink by turning a tale of a random mugger into an international conspiracy.
Real information comes at a steep price, both in the money for the info, and the time it takes to even find someone reliable. So the random person on the street might only know of drow as a passing rumor that came from a couple countries away.
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Fair.... More like: "Another weird underground race out to kill us all. Who can keep track?"
Exactly my take on it, and like the real world, most people need motivation and perceived relevance to them in order to care about tracking such distinctions.
That some people encountered Elves living underground somewhere far away from them doesn't inherently trigger that, beyond "oh huh, those Elves are weirdos huh?" (Elves themselves being pretty rare and isolationist in setting, something perhaps ignored since they are "core trope" from meta perspective) The detail that they look different might not have been transmitted... Or maybe it was but not in connection to anything else, so it's just "oh huh, another color of Elf". The detail that they are demon worshipping slavers might not have been transmitted, but could end up associated with with Elves in general and not Drow discretely (again, Elves being obscure and small population people might be prone to distrust or hold inaccurate beliefs about). Maybe Dow could be conflated with other species known to live underground that is similar from perspective of far away surface folk. Who really wants to go there anyways? So most people would lump it together as "that dark scary place with monsters".
The point being most people aren't too motivated to adhere to rigorous accuracy here... Same way media gets away with it's constant stream of "North Korea killed some person... Oh wait, they're alive, but we are totally serious journalists" bullshit, or Americans not really distinguishing between various nationalities or ethnicities that are "close enough" in their minds. Or consider the medieval myths about crazy creatures or humanoids who lived in parts of the world they had vague awareness of, but they wouldn't really know much context to make sense of any specific detail they might accurately learn. Basically, people in setting perspective do not plausibly approach their understanding of world as we players do, with every attested statblock a concrete fact we have unlimited perfect knowledge of.
Also, using creature Commonality as guide to in-world perceived knowledge does not seem something to rely on if you desire verisimillitude IMHO, it's just a very crude brush with vast majority of things being "Common". That's mostly aimed at player/GM metagame perspective (which can be very distorted by metafactors like "core status" of Elves etc) IMHO, not immersive collective consciousness in setting.
The detail that they are demon worshipping slavers might not have been transmitted, but could end up associated with with Elves in general and not Drow discretely (again, Elves being obscure and small population people might be prone to distrust or hold inaccurate beliefs about).
It certainly doesn't help matters that the regular elves were keeping the drow a secret. It might appear to be a conspiracy and collusion, rather than an attempt at hiding cultural shame.
I am sure someone is recording a very angry rant for wax tube record players where he exposes Kyonin for hiding the dastardly rituals that the elves (implied to be all elves in the rant) were performing underground.
Don't forget the white/silver hair and pure white pupilless eyes (other elves lack pupils too but they are all singular colours or black)
They are pretty distinctive.
I'd 100% expect things to get distorted, but weird blue skinned elves being bad news? I'd expect that bit to generally make it through pretty clearly. It's a simple concept and the distortions are likely to make the Drow seem more unpleasant, rather than less.
Time to take Lore: body art to paint/dye yourself a different color. Mehndi, for instance, can be brown, white, red, black and gold and lasts 24-72 hours and the same materials can stain your hair for 4-6 weeks.
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Everyone already knew what drow were, except for not believing them real.
The drow are infamous throughout the world, but until recently most assumed stories of demon-worshipping, underground-dwelling elves were spooky legends crafted to share around a campfire. Today, the existence of drow is an understood truth, and while their presence in the dark caverns deep below is unsettling, they seem content to leave the surface world alone for now.
It's a lot easier to spread the news that boogeymen are real when everyone already knows what boogeymen supposedly are.
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I'd 100% expect things to get distorted, but weird blue skinned elves being bad news? I'd expect that bit to generally make it through pretty clearly. It's a simple concept and the distortions are likely to make the Drow seem more unpleasant, rather than less.Time to take Lore: body art to paint/dye yourself a different color. Mehndi, for instance, can be brown, white, red, black and gold and lasts 24-72 hours and the same materials can stain your hair for 4-6 weeks.
Oh, disguises totally work. Never said otherwise. A Drow just walking around, though? That's gonna be an issue.
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The drow are infamous throughout the world, but until recently most assumed stories of demon-worshipping, underground-dwelling elves were spooky legends crafted to share around a campfire. Today, the existence of drow is an understood truth, and while their presence in the dark caverns deep below is unsettling, they seem content to leave the surface world alone for now.
Sounds like on the Golarion scale of "what's coming to kill us this week" drow don't really make it to the top of things to worry about.
The drow are infamous throughout the world, but until recently most assumed stories of demon-worshipping, underground-dwelling elves were spooky legends crafted to share around a campfire. Today, the existence of drow is an understood truth, and while their presence in the dark caverns deep below is unsettling, they seem content to leave the surface world alone for now.Sounds like on the Golarion scale of "what's coming to kill us this week" drow don't really make it to the top of things to worry about.
LOL With Common goblins, the least of your worries is Drow sneaking around. :P