Backstabber trait damage doesn't stack with Sneak Attack

[NemoNoName]

In a fun reversal, the Backstabber trait on weapons does not stack with Sneak Attack damage.

Meaning weapons that are supposed to be extra good for sneak attacking are not any better than any other weapon. :D Fun

[Taja the Barbarian]

And you are getting this from???

[Djinn71]

Additional damage is not the same thing as a bonus to damage, it stacks.

[NemoNoName]

Both types are precision damage.

Damage

Djinn71 wrote:

Additional damage is not the same thing as a bonus to damage, it stacks.

Errr, please link me where it says so, I can't find it.

[HammerJack]

That question is a little backwards. On most cases, the rules say what something is, not what it isn't. You can see what precision is at https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=340

You won't find it under bonus types.

[shroudb]

NemoNoName wrote:

Both types are precision damage.

Damage

Djinn71 wrote:

Additional damage is not the same thing as a bonus to damage, it stacks.

Errr, please link me where it says so, I can't find it.

yes, but neither source is "bonus precision damage"

Quote:

As with checks, you might add circumstance, status, or item bonuses to your damage rolls, but if you have multiple bonuses of the same type, you add only the highest bonus of that type.

"bonuses" are defined as Proficiency, Item, Circumstance and Status, nothing more (somewhere in chapter 9 where it says how you roll). For penalties, it's the same types+Untyped.

in sort, additional damage, stacks, because nothing forbits it to stack.

the only thing that doesnt stack is bonus damage, and that's (so far) limited to +x status bonus to damage, +x circumstance bonus to damage and +x item bonus to damage (i'm not sure that +x item bonus to damage even exists btw, cant recall seeing this anywhere)

that's also the reason why Property runes have this additional rule:

Quote:

Property runes add special abilities to armor or a weapon in addition to the item’s fundamental runes. If a suit of armor or a weapon has multiple etchings of the same rune, only the highest-level one applies.

because without it, nothing would forbit you to run 3xFlaming rune and get 3x fire damage (as an example).

but, as an additional example, a Fire Poi with a flaming rune WOULD add the flaming damage of the rune on top of the flaming damage of the weapon.

[ExOichoThrow]

Yeah, it's not a circumstance, item or status bonus, its just additional damage. I see no reason why anyone would rule it to not stack with sneak attack.

[GM OfAnything]

Circumstance, item, and status are all types of bonuses. Only the highest bonus of a type applies in most situations. Precision, fire, and bludgeoning are all types of damage. Damage always adds up.

For an example, the bonus damage from the weapon traits forceful and twin don't stack as they are both circumstance bonuses to the damage a weapon already does.

The backstabber trait does not give a bonus to damage, the weapon does additional damage of the precision type.

[NemoNoName]

I see. It sounds like a bad case of using similar language.

So just to confirm, but:
Investigator Strategic Strike
Rogue Sneak Attack
Swashbuckler Finisher

=> These all stack too?

[Shandyan]

NemoNoName wrote:

I see. It sounds like a bad case of using similar language.

So just to confirm, but:
Investigator Strategic Strike
Rogue Sneak Attack
Swashbuckler Finisher

=> These all stack too?

Yep, which is why multiclassing into rogue/investigator/swashbuckler gives you a worse version that the base class gets

For example, getting sneak attack by multiclassing into rogue costs a feat and gives 1d4 damage, which improves to 1d6 at 6th level, and never gets any better. A real rogue has 2d6 by level 5, and eventually maxes out at 4d6. There's no way to get strategic strike via multiclassing, and finishers are capped in a similar way to sneak attack.

[NemoNoName]

Sure, but you can combine this to up your Strategic Strike damage by 2d6 total (by getting the Basic Finisher and Sneak Attack).

I agree it's hardly ideal, but theoretically doable.

[shroudb]

NemoNoName wrote:

Sure, but you can combine this to up your Strategic Strike damage by 2d6 total (by getting the Basic Finisher and Sneak Attack).

I agree it's hardly ideal, but theoretically doable.

yes, but you have to fullfil all 3 requirements to gain all the benefits.

So, you both need to be using your Devise a stratagem roll, be attacking a flat-footed target and have Panache to spend to get all precision damage sources.

It's not impossible, but it is not something you can count for on every round. Plus, that's something like 5 class feats to get there (3 for one archetype and 2 for the other).

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah, that's legal. I doubt it's ever practical to combine all of that, but it's legal.

Rogue Multiclass for even more Skills and Sneak Attack on an Investigator is actually a pretty decent mechanical choice if you're more interested in the 'skill-focused, Int-based combatant' side of Investigator than the actual investigations (and are going melee...flanking being the best way to leverage the Sneak Attack).

[Xenocrat]

The real benefit to understanding that you can combine precision damage are the big sources available in APG archetypes like Eldritch Archer and Assassin on top of your class source, not combining a class with another classes's weak sauce MC dedication precision damage.

[Andrew the Warwitch]

Too bad the "backstabber" weapons are not what a rogue would normally carry.

[Deadmanwalking]

Andrew the Warwitch wrote:

Too bad the "backstabber" weapons are not what a rogue would normally carry.

Some are. Goblin Rogues with dogslicers are pretty on point, and a war razor is basically a straight razor, which is a classic for gang members and the like, and specifically described as easily concealed up a sleeve.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Andrew the Warwitch wrote:

Too bad the "backstabber" weapons are not what a rogue would normally carry.

Some are. Goblin Rogues with dogslicers are pretty on point, and a war razor is basically a straight razor, which is a classic for gang members and the like, and specifically described as easily concealed up a sleeve.

• Dogslicer - Uncommon, Martial weapon, d6 weapon die: Perfectly decent weapon, but still requires an ancestry feat to gain access (and another for the crit specialization).
  
• Fighting Fan - Uncommon, Martial weapon, d4 weapon die: Even if you somehow gain access and proficiency, you are almost certainly better off with a Shortsword outside of social situations where holding a fan is more acceptable than a blade.
  
• Filcher's Fork - Uncommon, Martial weapon, d4 weapon die: Really not worth the ancestry feat to gain access.
  
• War Razor - Common, Martial weapon, d4 weapon die: Easy to actually purchase, but basically impossible to be fully proficient in (you can get trained from a general feat, but that's it).

As for concealable weapons, the actual 'Conceal an Object' rules make all light weapons equally easy to conceal, so there is no apparent mechanical advantage there...

[Deadmanwalking]

Goblin Rogues are not exactly uncommon, but fair enough on the War Razor. We really still need an Archetype to get weapon Proficiencies for one-handed weapons like Mauler is for two-handed ones.

Almost every other Proficiency category has an equivalent, but not that one yet.

[Gisher]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Andrew the Warwitch wrote:

Too bad the "backstabber" weapons are not what a rogue would normally carry.

Some are. Goblin Rogues with dogslicers are pretty on point, and a war razor is basically a straight razor, which is a classic for gang members and the like...

Or perhaps a Tiefling with the Barber background who has trod a path that few have trod? ;)

[Gisher]

Andrew the Warwitch wrote:

Too bad the "backstabber" weapons are not what a rogue would normally carry.

They do often carry weapons with the agile and finesse traits. For Kobolds, there is the Between the Scales feat that lets you add backstabber to those against flat-footed opponents.