Summoner - My suggestion and predictions

[Verzen]

I have been analyzing the summoner from PF1 chained and unchained. There are two ways that the designers could go with this. One of which is the unchained version. You pick a pet, you get an already established pet build like an outsider version of animal companion. It gets a few unique abilities, like animal companions, and then off they go.

The other way I see things going is that the eidolon is a lot like PF1 chained where you can customize your Eidolon. PF2e already has a built in way to accomplish this in the system itself. Familiars in PF2e are fairly customizable with familiar abilities. You can give your familiars the ability to speak, for example. This will provide a fairly decent basis for a truly customizable Eidolon without sacrificing customization in order to limit its power. (Ultimately what PF1e did with changes with unchained summoner)But then we could also select feats or abilities that are roughly of equal power similar to Animal Companions and what differentiates animal companions. So not only do we get our choice of which combat abilities we can provide the Eidolon, we can pick what cosmetic/support changes that we may supply our Eidolon as well.

The other thing we ought to analyze is the four different paths of magic we can take in PF2e. Sorc in PF1 were strictly arcane, but in Pf2e, they branched out in their magical capabilities.

Since outsider isn't the only type of creature that can be summoned, we should open up the summoner to all four paths of magic.

You want to summon a giant gorilla or nature beast that is like a supped up animal companion infused with magic? Go primal.

You want to summon an outsider? arcane

Want to summon a aberration? Occult

Want to summon an undead monstrosity? Go divine.

Why should we limit the summon to strictly arcane/outsider when there are a ton of possibilities on what kind of thing you're summoning? After all, you have zero idea how you're able to summon it or where it came from.

Did it come from the outer planes? Outsider. Did it come from the boneyard? Undead. Did it come from a nature plane?

The possibilities with customization is endless with these 4 base choices you can make. The choices you can make would then provide a base for your summon and you customize it from there with general powers that could be applied in multiple ways.

With that said, to simplify the concept I am talking about...

You have four choices. Divine, arcane, occult, Primal

Divine provides your eidolon with a possible series of choices one of which is undead. Another could be an angel, etc and they provide base bonuses with the ability for some customization similar to familiars that provide some minor support and cosmetic changes.

Arcane would allow an outsider, which would provide certain abilities for an outsider.

Occult would be abberations or something similar.

Primal would be a bit similar to animal companion.

Then all summoners at level 1 get a modified Command Companion ability which reads as

Command Eidolon
2 actions
Command your Eidolon. Your Eidolon gets 3 actions.

This way you can move and then command your eidolon OR cast a spell with 1 action and command your eidolon OR cast a spell and skip commanding your eidolon for that turn. This would allow Eidolons a bit more power, but restricting their power in terms of action economy and it would put the focus on the Eidolon being front and center while the caster is less important for the summoner, which is what it should be and what would help separate the Summoner from say.. a druid.

Summoners should also get 1 focus spell that they can choose that would strictly cost 1 action point but would provide support for their Eidolon in one way or another.

This is what I think the summoner will end up being.

Choosing a customizable eidolon path, then using 2 actions for 3 eidolon actions.

Thoughts? Criticisms?

[Themetricsystem]

I personally think that 1 action for 2 actions per the minion rules is probably for the best otherwise you'll instantly be dealing with a Class that is as mobile as a rock if they want to do... well anything on their own and also have the E remain useful.

A better tack may be simply allowing them to take the Command Minion action twice in exchange for a Focus Point and allowing 1 Action for the E even if the Summoner doesn't spend the Action.

/shrug

[AnimatedPaper]

They already said they were going to let summoners pick traditions and that would determine your eidolon's type. One example they had was a beast creature associated with Primal casting.

[Temperans]

Well there are somethings that really bothered me reading that post.

1) Outsiders are not Arcane. Outsiders is a term to describe any creature from a plane other than the material plane. That is fiends, angels, psychopomps, aberation, archons, etc.

2) Undead are not part of the Boneyard. Pharasma hastes undead creation and can barely tolerate control over the undead. The outsider connected to the Boneyard are the Psychopomp, which guide the spirit of the dead.

3) If anything is connected to Primal is going to be the First World. That place is very wild and will very much not have any animal companion.

4) Why are you making out the Eidolon as just a Familiar/Animal Companion? Eidolons are a lot more powerful, a lot more customizeable, and a lot more free to do what they want.

5) Eidolon evolutions are not cosmetic changes, and the Unchained Eidolon subypes are merely a skeleton of what you can build. Evolutions determine both the abilities and body of the Eidolon. The cosmetics? Well that is whatever the player and GM agree upon and should not be limited by feats.

6) Spending 2 action to get 3 actions from the Eidolon is just bad. That should never be the case. And as implied previously. Eidolons are not minions. They should not be following the minions rules at all and just be there own thing with full action economy.

[Salamileg]

Temperans wrote:

6) Spending 2 action to get 3 actions from the Eidolon is just bad. That should never be the case. And as implied previously. Eidolons are not minions. They should not be following the minions rules at all and just be there own thing with full action economy.

I agree with everything but this. I think you can make a perfectly good summoner using things based off the minion rules (but not used exactly). I'm personally hoping for the summoner and eidolon to have 4 actions that they can split between each other however they see fit, with one side unable to get more than 3 actions at a time.

[Temperans]

Salamileg wrote:

Temperans wrote:

6) Spending 2 action to get 3 actions from the Eidolon is just bad. That should never be the case. And as implied previously. Eidolons are not minions. They should not be following the minions rules at all and just be there own thing with full action economy.

I agree with everything but this. I think you can make a perfectly good summoner using things based off the minion rules (but not used exactly). I'm personally hoping for the summoner and eidolon to have 4 actions that they can split between each other however they see fit, with one side unable to get more than 3 actions at a time.

The minion trait is too restrictive. 2 actions per turn and no reaction, and the player must spend an action.

What you described cannot be done with the minion rules. It simply would require the whole thing to be scrapped. And so its just better to make a new system just for the Eidolon.

Also I really do think Eidolons need to have all 3 actions and their reactionn just like all other non minion creatures. Because at the end of the day, an Eidolon is not and was not a Minion.

[kaid]

Given they are talking about magus not having a full 10 level of casting ability I kinda suspect summoners will be as well. The trade off for raw spell power can then offset improving the potency of their eidolon as a more primary focus of their combat capability. I would also suspect they can do 1 action to give eidolon 3 actions instead of 2 as they likely will be paying some personal power price for a better pet than other non dedicated classes can get.

[AnimatedPaper]

kaid wrote:

Given they are talking about magus not having a full 10 level of casting ability I kinda suspect summoners will be as well. The trade off for raw spell power can then offset improving the potency of their eidolon as a more primary focus of their combat capability.

That's already been confirmed too. In the playtest at minimum, Summoners will follow the same progression as Magus, except spontaneous instead of prepared.

[Curaigh]

Agreed: 1 action for 2 actions is most probable. At the very least I think there would be a sustain action as to protect action economy.

At AnimatedPaper: source?

[Perpdepog]

AnimatedPaper wrote:

They already said they were going to let summoners pick traditions and that would determine your eidolon's type. One example they had was a beast creature associated with Primal casting.

I hope Paizo is a bit more flexible with tradition-to-eidolon coorelations, mostly because, thus far, all outsider-type bloodlines for the sorcerer--which is currently our closest parallel of what this kind of flexibility might look like--are divine. With so many eidolon possibilities being outsiders it'd be a shame if the summoner was so chained to just picking the divine list.

[Elfteiroh]

BTW, we already have example of things that change the minion rules without scrapping everything, like giving a familiar a reaction. (Partner in Crime, in APG)
They can totally use the minion rules and append them with changes. I could see them starting like a normal minion, but getting class features that boost the number of actions a command gives, feats that give some reactions, or even just « evolutions » that do the same thing that you choose/gain, like the familiar abilities.

[Temperans]

As far as I am know all Eidolons are outsiders. No exceptions. No loop holes.

The real question is which type of outsider it is. In which cases there are 20+ subtypes listed for PF1 Unchained Eidolon.

No Eidolon is just a ghost, animal, or spirit. The closest thing to a "Spirit" Eidolon is a Shadow Eidolon.

**********************

* P.S. I dont agree on feat/evolution locking access to reactions and more actions. As I have been saying, Eidolons are not a Familiar.

Dont treat the Eidolon as a Familiar.

[Salamileg]

Temperans wrote:

No Eidolon is just a ghost, animal, or spirit. The closest thing to a "Spirit" Eidolon is a Shadow Eidolon.

Hasn't a beast eidolon already been confirmed?

[Temperans]

Salamileg wrote:

Temperans wrote:

No Eidolon is just a ghost, animal, or spirit. The closest thing to a "Spirit" Eidolon is a Shadow Eidolon.

Hasn't a beast eidolon already been confirmed?

In PF2 a Beast is specifically not an Animal, the Beast trait is for creatures that have an Int mod of more than -3 and often have the ability to talk and reason. It is a lot closer to the Magical Beast type from PF1.

My point still stands. Eidolons are not ghosts, spirits, or animal.

With the loss of the Outsider type, I can see Paizo being more open with what type of creatures can become Eidolons. But I would hope that they still follow the rule that all Eidolons are from a different plane. So a Beast Eidolon I can very well see as being from the First World, just like Fey Eidolons.

[Curaigh]

Temperans wrote:

Salamileg wrote:

Temperans wrote:

No Eidolon is just a ghost, animal, or spirit. The closest thing to a "Spirit" Eidolon is a Shadow Eidolon.

Hasn't a beast eidolon already been confirmed?

In PF2 a Beast is specifically not an Animal, the Beast trait is for creatures that have an Int mod of more than -3 and often have the ability to talk and reason. It is a lot closer to the Magical Beast type from PF1.

My point still stands. Eidolons are not ghosts, spirits, or animal.

With the loss of the Outsider type, I can see Paizo being more open with what type of creatures can become Eidolons. But I would hope that they still follow the rule that all Eidolons are from a different plane. So a Beast Eidolon I can very well see as being from the First World, just like Fey Eidolons.

Or an outsider that inhabits the body of a natural beast, pile of bones, statue, kitchen table. The outsider being the animating force. It would be fun to play a character that has an cat on riding his shoulder most of the time, and then he calls an outsider and has battle-cat instead. (sort of a synthesist for a bonded animal combo).

Also, where is the 'beast eidolon' confirmed?

[AnimatedPaper]

The gencon livestream event.

link

[Temperans]

Curaigh what you described sounds kind of like a Kami Eidolon.

Those are able to hide inside their Ward.

[Curaigh]

Thanks Animated Paper.

The kami is similar, but it doesn't replace the ward or even alter it. I was thinking more of Billy Baston & Shazam or Kringor & Battlecat. In any case, it was just an idea of making an 'outsider' that isn't an outsider per se.

Summoner was one of the most unique classes PF added to the game & probably my favorite. I know as implemented it had some issues but it was entirely possible to not build the balance destroying monster that caused unchained to come about. I am glad to see it come back. :)