Damge Calculation for critical hit with a Greater Pick?

[Rafse]

I’am a 10th lvl Dwarf fighter with a barbarian dedication with titan Mauler.
When I do a Critical/power attack with rage and vengeful hatred active.
And uses my great pick of striking with Grievous rune.(are of course master with it)
Is it right that the damage will look like this?
Weapon+strikinig rune+power attack: 4D12
Strengh 20: 5
Weapon specialisation: 3
Rage+Titan mauler: 6
Vengful haterd: 5
Fatal weapon trait: 1D12
Critical specialization Effects+Vengful rune: 20

(4D12+5+3+6+5)x2+1D12+20=maxdamge 166

Is it broken, or am I calculating it wrong?

Blessings
Rafse.

[HumbleGamer]

I don't know what the vengeful rune is ( I guess you mean the grievous rune ).

Quote:

Pick The extra damage from the critical specialization effect increases to 4 per weapon damage die.

Apart from that, the fatal extra trait should be add to the x2 I guess.

(5D12+5+3+6+5)x2+20=maxdamge 178

[masda_gib]

The effects of Vengeful Hatred and the Grievous rune only count the actual weapon dice. In your case 2 dice.
So VH adds 2 damage and the rune adds 8.

[Deriven Firelion]

What is Vengeful Hatred?

[Staffan Johansson]

HumbleGamer wrote:

Apart from that, the fatal extra trait should be add to the x2 I guess.

No, that was correct in the original calculation. Fatal does two things on a crit: swap the regular damage dice, and add another damage die. The additional damage die falls under the "extra damage on a crit" rule and thus isn't doubled.

[Staffan Johansson]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

What is Vengeful Hatred?

Dwarf feat that adds 1/weapon damage die to damage against creatures that either have a particular creature trait you pick when taking the feat (drow, duergar, giant, or orc, or that the GM approves as being an ancestral enemy), or that have given you a critical hit which dealt damage some time during the last minute.

[Rafse]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

What is Vengeful Hatred?

Power attack says "If this Strike hits, you deal an extra die of weapon damage. If you’re at least

10th level, increase this to two extra dice"

Fatal says "The fatal trait includes a die size. On a critical
hit, the weapon’s damage die increases to that die size
instead of the normal die size, and the weapon adds one
additional damage die of the listed size"

Critical Specialization Effectson om Pick says:
"The weapon viciously pierces the target, who
takes 2 additional damage per weapon damage die"

Grievious Rune says"The extra damage from the critical specialization effect increases to 4 per weapon damage die."

I can not read anywhere that this is only the weapon dice, and the striking rune. You have that for any other source?

But I see that I have not read the Vengful hatred good enough.

"You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to damage
with weapons and unarmed attacks against creatures with
that trait. If your attack would deal more than one weapon die
of damage (as is common at higher levels than 1st), the bonus
is equal to the number of weapon dice or unarmed attack dice."

[Draco18s]

I can find no text that explicitly states what a "weapon damage die" is, but I will point out that Deadly states:

Quote:

On a critical hit, the weapon adds a weapon

damage die of the listed size.

Fatal uses slightly different language, but I suspect that it was done to make it clear that a d8 Fatal d12 weapon "added a d12" at the end not, increased existing dice to d12, then add a d8 ("because that's what the weapon damage dice are").

So I'm willing to go along with the Deadly/Fatal dice being counted for the purposes of Vengeful and Grievous.

GM: "How many dice did you roll for that?"
Player: "Six"
GM: "Then you add six times four (24) bonus damage."

[Taja the Barbarian]

Fatal d12: On a crit, Weapon Die is 1d12 (doubled on a crit), and you get 1 additional die (NOT doubled on a crit)
Great Pick: 1 die (doubled on a crit)
Striking Rune: +1 die (doubled on a crit)
Power Attack: + 2 dice (doubled on a crit)

Strength Bonus: +5 (doubled on a crit)
Fighter Specialization: +3 (doubled on a crit)
Pick Specialization / Grievous Rune bonus: +4 per weapon die (NOT doubled on a crit).
Vengeful Hatred: +1 per weapon die (doubled on a crit)
Rage / Titan Mauler: +6 (doubled on a crit)

By my count, you end up with:
+(4d12+4) * 2 (weapon dice + Vengeful)
+1d12+1 (fatal bonus die + Vengeful)
+(6+5+3) * 2 = 28 (Rage, strength, & specialization)
+4*5 = 20 (Grievous rune bonus)
= either
9d12 + 57 (if you want to roll all the dice) or
(4d12+28) * 2 + 1d12 + 1 (if you are just doubling the damage roll)
Either way, I'm coming up with 66 - 165 damage

In the original post, the Vengeful Hatred bonus is calculated as 5 * 2 = 10, when is should probably be (4 * 2) + 1 = 9.

[Taja the Barbarian]

On the topic of 'is this broken' first we need to compare to similar weapons like a greatsword, greataxe, or maul.

These weapons all have 1d12 weapon dies but lack the Fatal trait and the extra damage on a crit specialization bonus, so their crit damage (all other things being equal) should be:
8d12 + 36 or 44-132 damage plus either becoming flat-footed (sword), knocked prone (maul), or damaging up to 2 adjacent targets (axe).

The extra 1d12+21 damage from a Great Pick crit looks impressive, but if it is not enough to actually kill your target outright, the Flat-Footed or Prone conditions are probably better for your party (assuming the target doesn't already have those conditions, of course).

The other thing to keep in mind is non-crit damage:
Greatpick: 4d10+18 or 22-58 damage
Other d12 weapon: 4d12+18 or 22-66 damage
The Greatpick average damage is 4 points behind, while the crit damage is 27.5 ahead, which indicates you need to crit more than 1/8th of your successful attacks for the Greatpick to pull ahead in overall damage: Statisically, this seems fairly likely (if you need a roll of 10-13 to hit, the pick does less damage overall) but it still means the bonus damage on a crit isn't quite as impressive as it might seem...

[Draco18s]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Statisically, this seems fairly likely (if you need a roll of 10-13 to hit, the pick does less damage overall) but it still means the bonus damage on a crit isn't quite as impressive as it might seem...

And this why I say that Deadly/Fatal is a trait that you pay a die size for, and then get that same die size back "only on a crit."

[Blave]

Haven't gone through all calculations in this topic, but the numbers in the original post are wrong.

Check the "Counting Damage Dice" rules:

Quote:

Effects based on a weapon’s number of damage dice include only the weapon’s damage die plus any extra dice from a striking rune. They don’t count extra dice from abilities, critical specialization effects, property runes, weapon traits, or the like.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Okay, charted up the overall damage comparison a bit:
Please note this just a straight damage comparison and doesn't take the conditions inflicted on a crit by the other weapon options.

Assuming you attack 20 times and roll each d20 value once, the Greatpick vs. 1d12 weapon damage by d20 roll required (RR) to hit should come out to:

RR / WpnDmg (Notes)
21+/ -004.0 (No Crits Possible)
20 / +027.5 (Only Crits)
19 / +023.5 (1 hit, 1 crit)
18 / +019.5 (2 hits, 1 crit)
17 / +015.5 (3 hits, 1 crit)
16 / +011.5 (4 hits, 1 crit)
15 / +007.5 (5 hits, 1 crit)
14 / +003.5 (6 hits, 1 crit)
13 / -000.5 (7 hits, 1 crit)
12 / -004.5 (8 hits, 1 crit)
11 / -008.5 (9 hits, 1 crit)
10 / -012.5 (10 hits, 1 crit)
09 / +015.0 (10 hits, 2 crits)
08 / +042.5 (10 hits, 3 crits)
07 / +070.0 (10 hits, 4 crits)
06 / +097.5 (10 hits, 5 crits)
05 / +125.0 (10 hits, 6 crits)
04 / +152.5 (10 hits, 7 crits)
03 / +180.0 (10 hits, 8 crits)
02 / +207.5 (10 hits, 9 crits)

So, it looks like ridiculously easy to hit targets really let the Greatpick shine, but the extra damage is kinda lackluster at best if the number you need to roll to hit is in the mid to upper mid-range.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Blave wrote:

Haven't gone through all calculations in this topic, but the numbers in the original post are wrong.

Check the "Counting Damage Dice" rules:

Quote:

Effects based on a weapon’s number of damage dice include only the weapon’s damage die plus any extra dice from a striking rune. They don’t count extra dice from abilities, critical specialization effects, property runes, weapon traits, or the like.

Okay, that would change the calcs significantly:

+(2d12+2) * 2 (Base Weapon + Striking Rune + Vengeful)
+(2d12+0) * 2 (Power Attack)
+(1d12+0) * 1 (fatal bonus die)
+(6+5+3) * 2 = 28 (Rage, strength, & specialization)
+4 * 2 = 8 (Grievous rune bonus)
= either
9d12 + 40 (if you want to roll all the dice) or
(4d12+20) * 2 + 1d12 (if you are just doubling the damage roll)
New total is 49 - 148 damage, which is only 1d12 + 8 better than a non-fatal 1d12 weapon.

Okay, the Pick Specialization bonus is seeming fairly lackluster now...

[Draco18s]

Blave wrote:

Quote:

Effects based on a weapon’s number of damage dice include only the weapon’s damage die plus any extra dice from a striking rune. They don’t count extra dice from abilities, critical specialization effects, property runes, weapon traits, or the like.

Wow I can't believe I managed to not-see that section.

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Okay, the Pick Specialization bonus is seeming fairly lackluster now...

See earlier comment about Deadly/Fatal...

[Rafse]

Blave wrote:

Haven't gone through all calculations in this topic, but the numbers in the original post are wrong.

Check the "Counting Damage Dice" rules:

Quote:

Effects based on a weapon’s number of damage dice include only the weapon’s damage die plus any extra dice from a striking rune. They don’t count extra dice from abilities, critical specialization effects, property runes, weapon traits, or the like.

Wow that one was my missing part. This clear up everthing, and make fatal and deadly. much more down to earth.

This core book sometimes feels like a easter egg hunt. Rules spread all over the place.

Thank you very much.

[Blave]

Rafse wrote:

This core book sometimes feels like a easter egg hunt. Rules spread all over the place.

There are absolutely rules that could be easier to find, but this one in particular is literally in the weapons chapter where weapon damage is explained. Not use where else you'd expect something like that? ;)

I think many rules are only obscure because too many players only skim the rules once and rarely take the time to actually read them carefully. Happens frequently to me as well.

[Draco18s]

Blave wrote:

I think many rules are only obscure because too many players only skim the rules once and rarely take the time to actually read them carefully. Happens frequently to me as well.

Also when you search "weapon damage dice" that particular rule doesn't actually get caught. Because it uses the phrase "weapon's number of damage dice."