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I love psionics so much and it is so integral to my homebrew world that I just went ahead and made my own stuff instead of waiting for a third party to do it for me. I made its own spell list, the psion, and an alternative with power points.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1uP40j5HY29ClwZun8aAjETyyODBAusYo?us p=sharing
Upon reflection, and bearing in mind that the Synthecist ability will be a 1st level class feat, I think if the spirirtualist gets attached to the Summoner chassis, the Medium is pretty well served.
Upon reflection, and bearing in mind that the Synthecist ability will be a 1st level class feat, I think if the spirirtualist gets attached to the Summoner chassis, the Medium is pretty well served.
My impression of Medium is that it's a class that switches between different "classes" (or for the playtest version, different abilities) via low-level possession. If there's only one spirit, then it's covering Spiritualist but not really Medium.
Upon reflection, and bearing in mind that the Synthecist ability will be a 1st level class feat, I think if the spirirtualist gets attached to the Summoner chassis, the Medium is pretty well served.My impression of Medium is that it's a class that switches between different "classes" (or for the playtest version, different abilities) via low-level possession. If there's only one spirit, then it's covering Spiritualist but not really Medium.
That's a fair point. I think in practice most default to a single spirit depending on their party, but the option should be there.
Which, actually, I wonder how modifiable an eidolon will be on a daily basis. If you're able to make changes each day like a familiar, then you can get the feel of having a different spirit each day simply by swapping abilities.
The themes for all 3 are also very very different. Summoner is all about customization, Spiritualist is all about personofication of emotions, Medium is all about talking to dead people and getting possessed.
I have no idea why people keep trying to put those 3 very different classes together.
Because if you are possessed each day by your eidolon, and your eidolon is a spirit, and it lasts all day like the Synthecist did in Pf1, that's going to look a lot like the medium on at least a mechanical level. Won't be identical, since you presumably won't get class feats and such, but at least you can convert a medium from PF1 a heck of lot sooner than waiting for a full medium class.
Would work even better if, like in my reply to Quidest, you're able to change abilities out each morning like you can with your familiar. Actually I rather hope that is the case anyways.
If they do Evolutions like they did in PF1 it will only be a change on level up or after using the Transmogrify spell.
As for Synthesist Eidolon vs Medium Spirits. They have vastly different effects.
* Synthesist Eidolon lets you take the form of the Eidolon, gaining: All of its attacks, bonus HP, all of its physical stats, all of its evolutions, etc.
* Medium Spirits however give very specific abilities thematic for each spirit, with no way to customize that spirit.
Medium Spirits have a lot more unique abilities besides just being better at combat. Stuff that is just not replicated by a Summoner's Eidolon. Not to mention that the Medium who over uses the Spirit risks losing some control. Meaning that Medium Spirits is a lot closer to the PF2 Oracle Ancestors Curse, but much more central to the theme.
Here's the thing, you're talking about PF1. I'm talking about PF2. We don't know if any of the things you mention are true in PF2. Heck, the devs themselves don't even know, because they haven't finished either class yet.
Which is why I posed the question. None of us know how far the chassis will stretch, or what concepts it will cover. It could be as narrow as you've been saying in this and other threads, but there's no reason to assume it is.
We'll find out in a few weeks either way.
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I think that what makes sense for the Medium depends a lot on whether they are aiming for the Medium class fantasy or for how Mediums actually work in PF1e, which are very different things.
I think that the fantasy of the Medium was supposed to be that you have the flexibility to embody different archetypes to a reasonable degree based on which type of spirit you had, and that you could flex into different roles as it was advantageous to do so. Erasmus's story, for example, makes being a Medium sound like you get to be a flexible jack-of-all-trades, carefully choosing which strengths to emphasize as you need them.
PF1 did not deliver on this fantasy very well at all for a wide range of reasons. Because you needed (with most archetypes) to choose one for the day, you weren't really that good at being adaptive. Seriously exacerbating this, shifting spirits doesn't rearrange your stats or feats or the resources you've invested in magic items or anything, so you would end up pretty mediocre at everything if you actually tried to spread out your strengths.
In practice, it made sense to have a "main" spirit as much as you could manage, at least for days where you expected any combat. It usually made sense for that spirit to be the Champion, because the Champion does a better impression of the other classes that might normally fill that role than most of the other spirits do. The whole structure of the class creates a feedback loop; the more you invest in one spirit, the more you want to use that one spirit, which in turn makes you want to invest more in that spirit.
If I was trying to design a class for Erasmus vs. if I were trying to design a class for replicating the 1e Medium experience, those classes would not have a great deal in common.
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We only have the info for PF1 as to how the Summoner has been done. That info will no doubt affect how the Summoner gets made for PF2.
PF2 is set in Golarion so all the PF1 Summoners are cannon. If its impossible to make even a token PF1 Summoner than Paizo would have failed on being able to tell the same stories. And those stories very much include the Eidolon as I have described to some extent or another.
I definitely agree. I just don't really see how giving summoners more flexibility, the ability to cover more concepts, precludes them from being able to cover their previous concepts. If there was a change that did eliminate previous options, then I would agree the class design needs to be reworked, but as long as the change is additive I wouldn't mind it personally.
As an example, we already know summoners will be able to cast from any tradition (in the playtest at least). That doesn't mean Arcane summoners are cut adrift, just that they aren't the only ones any more, and are now on equal footing with archetypes like Fey callers (any bets on this one being primal, occult, or both?). For a more speculative change, if eidolons could swap out abilities daily like a baseline PF2 familiar instead of being locked in like a PF1 or high level PF2 one, I don't see how that stops you from using the same abilities for your eidolon each day. Just don't swap abilities except when you level up.
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Building on that last point, I'm curious what creature types will be associated with the Occult tradition. I assume Ethereal, Aberration, Dream, and possibly Fey are on the table. Spirit I still think can be an option; while we don't have an example of a spirit that isn't also an incorporeal undead, my reading of the trait doesn't seem to necessitate them being so defined. And if not, I'm curious if shadow will be an option again, as they are incorporeal undead, without even the Shadow trait tying them to another plane. Ancestor and Storykin Eidolons would be interesting to see brought forward, and the latter might especially benefit from the more flexible ability option I would like to see.
The Medium is very much a 3.5 Binder, not a PF1 Summoner. It unknown yet what Paizo will ultimately do for PF2. I just dont want it to be a Summoner.
That's fine. I had not actually advocating one way or another on if it is preferable for Paizo do mediums this way. I'm wondering aloud if it is possible. In fact, even if I'm 100% correct and a facsimile of the medium is possible to be built out of the summoner chassis, I'd still prefer them to also make a Medium class that worked differently, so as to give an additional mechanical riff on the same theme. I generally push towards flexible multiclass feats, but assuming you speak for more than just yourself, that would not work to satisfy you. It sounds like they'll need something like cleric doctrines; six different variations of proficiency bumps and bonus feats that are fixed.
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Based on summoning spells, creature types break down like this:
Arcane: Animal, Construct, Elemental, Dragon, Undead,
Divine: Celestial, Fiend, Undead,
Occult: Aberration, Fey, Undead,
Primal: Animal, Fey, Fungus, Elemental, Giant, Plant
Based on what Skill is used to identify them, the following creature types might also be available:
Arcane: Beast,
Divine: Monitor,
Occult: Astral, Ethereal, Ooze, Spirit,
Primal: Beast,
Notably, only Fey and Undead can be summoned by traditions other than the one associated with the Skill for identifying them (and Undead are only sort of summoned).
So, if we're to have Eidolons affiliated with specific Traditions, Occult can probably get Aberrations, Oozes, Spirits, and maybe Fey (I doubt they get Astral or Ethereal options...though I could be wrong). That seems a reasonable set of options. In fact, let's go through options that would work per Tradition (assuming Undead are not available...if they are they probably get added to either Divine, or everyone but Primal):
Arcane: Beast, Construct, Elemental, Dragon,
Divine: Celestial, Monitor, Fiend,
Occult: Aberration, Ooze, Spirit,
Primal: Beast, Fey, Elemental, Plant/Fungus,
That's three or four options for each, which seems reasonable enough. If they need to be 'extraplanar' thematically (and maybe they do) this list probably becomes as follows (maybe leaving Beast aside, though there I agree you can probably get First World and other extraplanar examples):
Arcane: Beast, Elemental,
Divine: Celestial, Monitor, Fiend,
Occult: Aberration, Spirit,
Primal: Beast, Fey, Elemental,
That's down to two or three options each (maybe 1 to 3 if you ditch Beast), and looking very possible as a list.
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Arcane seems really starved which would be bad considering the class was originally Arcane. Primal and Occult seem fine.
We have several examples of extraplanar dragons, so I'd add that to Arcane as well. I want to say constructs too, but I'd be leery of including either them or Undead. Spirits are one thing (assuming the trait can be cleaved from incorporeal undead), but undead and constructs have too many automatic immunities.
Inevitables are a type of construct so there is no reason to have 2 different constructs.
If you're chaotic, inevitables won't really work.
If spirits have too many immunities for a summoner, they have too many immunities for a spiritualist. Good thing spirits don't have any immunities inherent to the trait. They aren't even necessarily incorporeal.
Source Core Rulebook pg. 636 1.1
Spirits are ephemeral creatures defined by their spiritual self and often lacking a physical form.
I think there's a pretty good chance that if they do go with a system where you have eidolon categories inspired by existing creature categories, like the Unchained Summoner, they'll simply have one consistent type regardless, to entirely sidestep the issues with type-based immunities. (That type was Outsider in Pathfinder 1e.) Spiritualist phantoms were also Outsiders. In other words, the existence of type-based immunities or other inconvenient type-based traits may be a moot point; it's a problem that PF1e already solved, and even if they have to invent a new type to do it, the same solution could be pretty easily applied to PF2e. I'm not sure where the assumption that type-based immunities would ever be a problem even came from.
Also, there definitely shouldn't be a Spiritualist/Medium class. Those classes have only the most superficial things in common. The differences between Spiritualist and Summoner can be pretty easily be reconciled, especially as both classes would have to be pretty significantly redesigned. Mashing together Spiritualist and Medium is like mashing together Oracle and Cavalier because Alahazra and Alain are both humans.
I was tying the classes based on their mechanics. Spiritualist Phantom's manifestations and elemental focus combines a lot better with Medium's Spirits. And then both have a similar thematic but different output.
In any case Spiritualist and Medium do not mesh well with how Summoners and Eidolons work.
I think you're getting distracted by the fact that Spiritualist and Medium both involve the idea of a ghost going inside your head; mechanically, the classes couldn't have less in common, while the Spiritualist is directly designed as a Summoner variant, with highly parallel mechanics. In a hybridized Summoner/Spiritualist class, you'd probably just make various iconic Phantom abilities into feats and/or evolution options. (I think it's useful to think of such as class as a hybrid between the two; there's no reason that an Eidolon can't have an emotion-themed aura, for example.) Yes, there are salient differences between Summoners and Spiritualists, and in some cases those differences stand out because of how highly alignable the classes are otherwise, but they're pretty straightforward to reconcile.
Meanwhile, Spiritualist and Medium have so little in common that I'm not sure where you'd even start with trying to hybridize them. You'd be essentially either creating an entirely new concept out of only the thinnest thematic ties, completely jettisoning the mechanical feel of one of the two classes, or creating a weird frankenclass that's two completely unrelated things stapled together. "Something involving ghosts going into you" is not a core mechanical conceit in the same way that the the chassis created for the Summoner and then cloned for the Spiritualist is.
Also, phantoms don't have an elemental focus; are you thinking of some other class? Do you mean "emotional" focus? If anything, Summoners have a slightly stronger tie to elemental stuff than Spiritualists.
As for the construct not working for chaotic? What is the problem with that? Eidolons dont have alignment restrictions. The most difficult part is trying to convince a Lawful Neutral Monitor that your brand of Chaotic is all to fix/destroy the other brands of Chaotic.
That sounds like great RP potential.
They did have alignment restrictions, actually. Both Chained and Unchained. Unchained is actually a bit looser, as you have to select a subtype alignment within 1 step of your own. Chained Eidolons matched your alignment exactly.
I think there's a pretty good chance that if they do go with a system where you have eidolon categories inspired by existing creature categories, like the Unchained Summoner, they'll simply have one consistent type regardless, to entirely sidestep the issues with type-based immunities. (That type was Outsider in Pathfinder 1e.) Spiritualist phantoms were also Outsiders. In other words, the existence of type-based immunities or other inconvenient type-based traits may be a moot point; it's a problem that PF1e already solved, and even if they have to invent a new type to do it, the same solution could be pretty easily applied to PF2e. I'm not sure where the assumption that type-based immunities would ever be a problem even came from.
Types mostly don't work like that in PF2. All the PF1 stuff of "oozes are immune to crits, dragons have low-light vision out to 120 ft, etc" is mostly gone. In fact, almost no creature types have specific rules at all, with the exception of constructs and undead. Admittedly there are strong suggestions, like that spirits mostly are incorporeal, but its not actually cut and dried.
So the problem, such as it is, is also solved in PF2, as long as you avoid those two types.
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I'm jumping in here late to the party, and am looking at some TL;DRs, but it seems the topic at hand in the present time is Spiritualists compared to Summoners and Mediums, and boy can I interject! So, a few months ago I tried to homebrew a class (might work on it more, might not) that was essentially the Summoner and Spiritualist at the same time, along with some other thing, and I can to the realization is that the main difference is how much the user is screwed with if their buddy bites it. Spiritualist's ghosts are kind of like a Stand or Persona, it's intrinsically tied to your being, and harm to it means (in some way shape or form) harm to you, while a Summoner's Eidolon is like a Fate/ Servant or a Planer Ally, it's there to help you punch stuff and maybe even take hits for you, but if it dies... not much happens, you just gotta twiddle your thumbs until you can activate a resummoning ritual, and then everyone is right as rain again. While it's gone you've lost a key form of DPS and defense, but you as a being are mostly unaffected, if not potentially better off in some way (no more leech on your magic). As to Mediums... They can't materialize their spirit buddy can they? So it's really just an oddly specific self-buff at the end of the day, it's just funny how you get there, and that can be done in a bunch of different ways. Sorry if I'm rambling, long day -.-
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Upon reflection, and bearing in mind that the Synthecist ability will be a 1st level class feat, I think if the spirirtualist gets attached to the Summoner chassis, the Medium is pretty well served.
Okay Temperans, I was wrong. *slides over $.25* *but takes it back because I live in CA and there are taxes*