Dragon Disciple problems


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


There is an issue. It implies that only Dragon blooded sorcerers have to stick with their chosen type. yet kobolds and barbarians could potentially have 2 different dragon types, thus extra resistances.

I am also not to fond of Scales of the dragon. On a personal opinion it makes no sense for a dex cap on something that is supposed to be as natural to the user as their skin. Like Kobolds suddenly are hindered by their own scales? Dragon blooded sorcerer's who have experienced the scales growing many times now find themselves suddenly restricted by their own body?


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Kobolds are special like that, and Barbarians gaining additional resistances only apply while raging after a certain level. Sorcerers never receive energy resistance unless they activate their claws, which is available by 1st level, and plus they scale, and aren't meant to be that defensive of a character. In short, Dragon Disciple is meant for non-Draconic Sorcerers who want some of the Dragon Bloodline goodies without playing an actual Sorcerer for it. Consider that by 9th level with Multi-Talented, a Human or Half-Elf can take Sorcerer dedication with the Draconic Bloodline and, boom, have instant access to the Dragon Disciple archetype.

And to be fair, a similar restriction is there for Animal barbarians with their natural skin, along with an item like Bracers of Armor somehow being more restrictive than an entire suit of normal explorer's clothing. At the end of the day, this serves as a balance mechanism so that characters with ridiculous amounts of Dexterity aren't beating the characters AC who have heavy armor, which makes a bit of sense. They have to pay for that AC with reduced Dexterity (which affects saves and skills) and reduced movement. Why pay for that for the AC when you can just take certain options that let you forgo that?


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Dragon Disciple should do more to juice up the Dragon Form. Having it once per hour at level 18 is too little too late.

At such high levels it's weird that you can't stay a dragon for longer (maybe a weaker version indefinitely), or get something that makes it better than everyone else's dragon form.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
They have to pay for that AC with reduced Dexterity (which affects saves and skills) and reduced movement.

Dex Cap only affects AC and not saves and skills fyi


demlin wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
They have to pay for that AC with reduced Dexterity (which affects saves and skills) and reduced movement.
Dex Cap only affects AC and not saves and skills fyi

The DEX cap is also removed entirely if you're proficient with the armor and have the requisite STR score.

I think the statement is more meant that characters who use heavy armor are less likely to invest in their DEX at all, affecting those skills and saves, compared to investing in say, STR and CON and such.


Inquisitive Tiefling wrote:
demlin wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
They have to pay for that AC with reduced Dexterity (which affects saves and skills) and reduced movement.
Dex Cap only affects AC and not saves and skills fyi

The DEX cap is also removed entirely if you're proficient with the armor and have the requisite STR score.

I think the statement is more meant that characters who use heavy armor are less likely to invest in their DEX at all, affecting those skills and saves, compared to investing in say, STR and CON and such.


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Inquisitive Tiefling wrote:
demlin wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
They have to pay for that AC with reduced Dexterity (which affects saves and skills) and reduced movement.
Dex Cap only affects AC and not saves and skills fyi

The DEX cap is also removed entirely if you're proficient with the armor and have the requisite STR score.

I think the statement is more meant that characters who use heavy armor are less likely to invest in their DEX at all, affecting those skills and saves, compared to investing in say, STR and CON and such.

It doesn't remove the Dex Cap, it removes the armor check penalty and a portion of the speed loss.


Argol wrote:

There is an issue. It implies that only Dragon blooded sorcerers have to stick with their chosen type. yet kobolds and barbarians could potentially have 2 different dragon types, thus extra resistances.

Definitely unfair

Argol wrote:


I am also not to fond of Scales of the dragon. On a personal opinion it makes no sense for a dex cap on something that is supposed to be as natural to the user as their skin. Like Kobolds suddenly are hindered by their own scales? Dragon blooded sorcerer's who have experienced the scales growing many times now find themselves suddenly restricted by their own body?

Scales of the Dragon is bad, 3 extra points of elemental resistance for the loss of a point of AC, a really bad trade. I would not take it if it was free, let alone costing you a valuable class feat.


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Gortle wrote:


Scales of the Dragon is bad, 3 extra points of elemental resistance for the loss of a point of AC, a really bad trade. I would not take it if it was free, let alone costing you a valuable class feat.

Scales of the Dragon is fantasamundo, just because it doesn't stop applying when under a Polymorph effect. Since it is a status bonus, it transfers over, basically just making those forms tankier.

Dragon Form at level 11 for instance has 29 AC normally, which is pretty poor considering that your caster could be at 30 with +4 Dexterity and a +2 armor rune in Explorer's Clothing. This makes Dragon Form an actual improvement.

This continues as you level up, making your best form at each level quite a bit tankier than human form. And as you can simply use Explorer's Clothing and forsake the status bonus until transforming while still getting the resistance you don't even have to take the human form AC drop.


manbearscientist wrote:
Gortle wrote:


Scales of the Dragon is bad, 3 extra points of elemental resistance for the loss of a point of AC, a really bad trade. I would not take it if it was free, let alone costing you a valuable class feat.

Scales of the Dragon is fantasamundo, just because it doesn't stop applying when under a Polymorph effect. Since it is a status bonus, it transfers over, basically just making those forms tankier.

Dragon Form at level 11 for instance has 29 AC normally, which is pretty poor considering that your caster could be at 30 with +4 Dexterity and a +2 armor rune in Explorer's Clothing. This makes Dragon Form an actual improvement.

This continues as you level up, making your best form at each level quite a bit tankier than human form. And as you can simply use Explorer's Clothing and forsake the status bonus until transforming while still getting the resistance you don't even have to take the human form AC drop.

You have made some good points. But I still don't see it as adviseable.

Dragon Scales still works when you aren't wearing armour which is nice if you are caught off guard.

But you also have to be unarmoured to gain it's status bonus. Which means you will have to take any armour off before you transform. Because your armour is definitely still on once you have transformed. If you are wearing any armour that is quite a bit of time to do.

A +2 status to AC is nice, but there are other ways to get a status bonus like a protection spell. The Dex limit is impossible to work out as you don't have a relevant Dex score while in Dragon form. But that Dex limit will apply all the rest of the time as as you can't turn the Scales off. There is enough space that GMs will vary on their interpretation of this. But I suspect most GMs will force the Dex Limit.

So most of the time I see that you will be down on AC

Liberty's Edge

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Scales of the Dragon isn't a meaningful AC loss for unarmored casters who start with Dex less than 16 (a very real group, especially if going Str-based melee as Dragon Disciple encourages).

If you start with a 16, you can hit 20 (and thus better AC than Dragon Scales) at level 15. At Dex 14, you can't hit it until level 20, which is rather a short lived benefit to invest two stat-ups in. And if you started with a 12 or less, you can never exceed it at all.

Now, starting with less than Dex 14 is a rather niche problem for unarmored casters. Starting with only a 14, however, is not. That's a decently common stat spread, honestly.

And, if you've started with Dex 14, then Dragon Scales allows you to never invest in Dex again if you so desire. That's a pretty fair amount of extra stat points to invest elsewhere, which isn't nothing.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Scales of the Dragon isn't a meaningful AC loss for unarmored casters who start with Dex less than 16 (a very real group, especially if going Str-based melee as Dragon Disciple encourages).

If you say so, but my casters tend to start in light armour (via a very easy general feat) so having the +5 AC bonus from level 1 is quite doable. They get out of it later.

I shudder at the thought of this in melee


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Don't forget: Access is not the same as Prerequisities

Every character can theoreticly become a dragon bloodline sorcerer. It's just [Uncommon] among those who are not part of th listed classes/races

Liberty's Edge

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Oh, it's not actually great in melee, but starting Dex 14 or so and not investing in armor is not super uncommon among casters.

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