UncleExpendable |
Here's a build that works great if your DM is fun, or crazy, or a little drunk, and willing to squint hard enough. If you are a fan of goblins, explosions, and people wielding weapons that are patently too large for them, then read on!
Blammo is a goblin gunslinger using the Oversized Goblin variant. He is therefore a Medium sized creature with +2 STR, +2 DEX, and -2 CHA. As far as his other goblin racial traits, nothing has been changed, so take any that you like. Junk Tinker, for instance seems quite thematic.
Ability Scores
10 point: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 5
15 point: Str 16, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 5
20 point: Str 16, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 5
25 point: Str 16, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 16, Cha 5
A note on the high strength: I'm not sure how much pathfinder says that a cannon weighs (spoilers). I figure that with muleback cords or extradimensional space, we can figure this one out by the time it's important. If your DM can't be asked to keep track of encumbrance, so much the better.
Skill Points
We have between 3 and 5 per level depending on Favored Class bonuses and which array you got stuck with. I recommend picking a few of your best options and maxing them out, considering. Perception is (as usual) one of your best options, Craft: Alchemy will help to keep you in ammo for a fraction of the usual cost, and Stealth is also an okay option given our light armor and high Dex (especially if your cannon is in a bag of holding or something). If you plan to take Siege Gunner at level 5 (or Master Siege Engineer at level 10), you will also need ranks in K. Engineering or Profession: Siege Engineer.
Traits
Surprise Weapon (+2 to hit with improvised weapons)
(Any other trait that you would like)
Level 1 (Gunslinger: Musket Master)
Class Features: Deeds, Grit, Gunsmith
Feats: Rapid Reload (Musket) and Goblin Gunslinger
Goblin gunslinger is the only part of this build I would consent to being a bit suspect for two reasons. RAW it allows goblin characters to wield firearms as though they were medium size, but I don't think that it's a stretch to rule that it would allow us to do the same with large weapons, given that we're medium sized already. Otherwise, a standard sized goblin would lose this ability if Enlarge Person were cast on him. If your DM is already bucking at this idea, read no further. My condolences. If everything checks out as I've said, then congratulations! Grab your 3d6 musket and load it with paper cartridges. You're already gunslinging like a pro.
Level 2 (Gunslinger: Musket Master)
Class Features: Nimble +1
Feats: None
Not much has changed yet. A +1 AC will help to keep Blammo alive for now, though. Keep shooting your musket.
Level 3 (Gunslinger: Musket Master)
Class Features: Deeds
Feats: Rapid Reload: Cannon
Now for the second shaky part of Goblin Gunslinger. Maybe buy your DM another drink before telling him about this part. According to the section on inappropriately sized weapons here "In most cases, a Large or larger creature can use a siege firearm as a two-handed firearm, but the creature takes a –4 penalty for using it this way because of its awkwardness." This leads me to make two assumptions. First, and most importantly, that since we are able to wield firearms as though we were a size larger, that we too are capable of hoisting a fracking cannon onto one shoulder and using it as a two handed firearm, and two, that the "-4 penalty" imposed is the standard nonproficiency penalty one takes for wielding an improvised weapon (an item not designed to be wielded as a weapon) in combat. Thanks to the Fast Musket deed, we can reload this improvised two handed weapon as though it were a pistol, meaning Rapid Reload: Cannon allows us to reload paper cannonball cartridges as a free action. If you made it this far, you're in the clear! Maybe buy the DM another drink to celebrate.
You're now toting a 6d6 siege weapon as a main weapon, with a musket for a sidearm. Don't forget that you can also load Blast Shot for the same price as a normal cannonball (10gp if you make it yourself) to do the same damage to everyone in a 30 foot cone with a much lower chance of misfire. The only trade off? Your shots no longer ignore hardness. Too bad. Did you know our standard ammunition ignores all hardness? It does.
Your main problem now is how expensive (and heavy) your ammo is. Best solution I can think of is to grab up a custom magic item of abundant ammunition as soon as possible. Mine is a chest slot item I call the Cannoneer's Bandolier. As a 1st level spell cast at 1st level, with a minute duration, it should cost 4,000gp to have it always on. Odds are, you'll be able to grab it sometime between now and 4th level. If not, maybe a wand?
Lvl 4 (Gunslinger: Musket Master)
Class Features: Bonus Feat
Feats: Throw Anything
Assuming everything I said about improvised weapons checked out, this should remove the penalty for attacking with the cannon (doesn't say you actually have to throw it) and put you at Full BAB plus Dex plus 2 trait bonus to hit with the thing. Considering it resolves on touch AC for the first 100 feet range increment, you won't be missing much.
Lvl 5 (Gunslinger: Musket Master)
Class Features: Musket Training
Feats: (Seige Engineer)
If your DM didn't buy that shtick about improvised weapons, then forget Throw anything and the Surprise weapon trait. Take EWP: Cannon at third level and just grab this feat at fifth. Even if he does let the improvised weapon thing go, you might pick this anyway, depending on how afraid you are of misfires.
Also, we get Dex to damage with all two handed firearms this level, which rocks.
Lvl 6-8 (Monk: Zen Archer)
Class Features: Flury of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Way of the Bow, Zen Archery, Fast Movement
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Perfect Strike, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Precise Shot, Point Blank Master
I like to consider this the "Holy frack, I forgot I was a ranged character" period. This dip helps us pick up a bunch of the feats we otherwise might have been taking, had we not been focusing on getting a cannon. Also, nets us +10 movement, and +3 to all our saves. Losing one point of BAB isn't great, but it doesn't suck either, considering we're attacking Touch AC. If your DM allows the non-paizo archetype Zen Marksman though, take that instead. It's just as good as Zen archer, and all of it works for your cannon.
Lvl 9+
Lots of good options here; feats are as good for ranged characters as they always are, so grabbing levels in fighter wouldn't go amiss. Fighter also comes with Weapon Training, and the "Warrior Spirit" option, to allow for on-the-fly enchanting. Depending on whether or not your DM ruled that your cannon is an improvised weapon, you might pick up the (non Paizo) improved catch off-guard feat to get sneak attack on your cannon attacks, if for some reason your cannon isn't doing enough damage for you. You could also make a strong case for the Shikigami Style chain of feats to drive your damage total into the stratosphere (your DM would be well within his rights to lob something heavy at your head at this point). Eldritch Archer Magus might also be an interesting choice, allowing for cannonballs that deliver spell attacks. Basically any full base attack class with a couple extra feats will be good as gold from here on in.
By the way, if your character happens to be level 10 or more at creation, I'd also like to point out that you can skip being a musket master by taking the Master Siege Engineer feat. This will lower your reload time to a move action with a siege weapon to a move action. Rapid Reload: Cannon would then reduce your reload time to free action without even requiring paper cartridges.
When it comes to later game items, just focus on the big 6:
Magic Weapon
Enchant the heck out of your cannon, if you're able. If not, grab all the magic ammo you can lay your grubby goblin mitts on
Magic Armor
A monk's robe isn't a terrible choice here, but don't be afraid to put on some light armor if you need to. We aren't using any monk abilities that we'd lose by donning it.
Cloak of Resistance
To keep our saves high
Stat-boosting item (headbands for mental stats, belts for physical)
Wisdom for Headbands, Dex for Belts
Ring of Protection/Amulet of Natural Armor
Realy helps our survivability, especially if we're using our Monk unarmored AC
Feats I recommend from this point onward:
Shikigami Style
Shikigami Mimicry
Shikigami Manipulation
Improved Precise Shot
Clustered Shots
Deadly Aim
Any other ranged feats
avr |
I'm fairly sure the -4 for using a siege firearm as a large creature isn't due to non-proficiency or improvised weapon. It looks like it's just because the weapon is too damn big.
Though if you really want to use a big gun look at the culverin or even the double hackbutt, and this may be one of the rare situations where vital strike is useful.
UncleExpendable |
I looked round, but couldn't find anything in the way of clarification. In the end my group and I landed on the "improvised weapon" rule on account of it not being built to be used in the way it's being wielded, but your mileage may vary. I guess you can always just eat the -4 and grab things like Weapon Focus to mitigate the problem.
Meirril |
Goblin Gunslinger actually says you can use medium firearms without taking the size penalty. That is HUGELY different than letting you treat a goblin as being medium sized.
The really disappointing thing about Goblin Gunslinger is you're still small, and you're still limited to using 2 hands worth of firearm.
When you move up a size light are treated as one-handed weapons, and one-handed weapons are treated as 2-handed weapons. You can't wield 2 handed weapons of a larger size unless you have something that specifically says you can. Guess what? Goblin Gunslinger isn't worded in a way that would allow you to do that.
What I found interesting is if you are a goblin gunslinger and you get polymorphed/transmuted into a large creature, you can use medium sized pistols (without size penalty) as light weapons, which is beneficial for Two Weapon Fighting.
Derklord |
First of all, I take offense at the statement of "a build that works great if your DM is fun" - unless everyone has agreed up front to build something ridiculous and rule-ignoring, this build here is extremely likely to ruin the other players' fun. Letting one player get away with everything is not the mark of a good GM, it's exactly the opposite.
That out of the way, I hope you realize that just about no part of this actually works.
- Even if your GM allows you to apply Goblin Gunslinger to large firearms if you're medium sized, you still aren't a "Large or larger creature" and therefore the respective section of the rules never applies to you.
- The -4 penalty for a large+ creature using a cannon is neither a non-proficiency penalty nor an improvised weapon penalty. You cannot remove this penalty by any means.
- Even if a creature can use siege firearms as if they were two-handed firearms, they are still classified as siege firearms - the "use" is only for firing them. They don't work with Rapid Reload ("The Rapid Reload feat (...) does not reduce the time it takes to load siege firearms."), they don't qualify for Fast Musket, and they use siege firearm ammunition, which doesn't know cartridges. If you aren't actually large, you'd also need a crew of 2 to operate a cannon.
- There are no projectile improvised weapon. The concept simply doesn't exist.
Overall, this goes beyond stretching the rules a bit. This is fully in "make up your own rules" territory. As a GM I could totally get behind using a large musket with the feat and Oversized Goblin, but that doesn't change the other issues.
If you want something that actually works, as far as I can see, apparently one can use firearms of any size, at a stacking penalty. I didn't even know that. A medium sized goblin wielding a gargantuan sized musket seem to work just fine, it would deal 8d6 damage at a -8 penalty.
UncleExpendable |
I'm sorry to upset you, Dreklord. I realize that the build I proffered is a little unorthodox, and relies on several assumptions. My remarks as to getting your DM drunk to make him agree to the build, or encouraging DMs in the scenario to enact violence on their players are largely intended as attempts at humor. Mostly the games I play in are heavy RPG and light crunch, so don't worry, I haven't been using Blammo to one-shot level appropriate dungeon rooms starting at level 3. I didn't create him to ruin other people's fun, I created him because the idea of a chubby goblin wielding a cannon like a bazooka tickled me.
As I said earlier, if your DM isn't willing to entertain the conceit that Goblin Gunslinger allows a medium goblin to wield a firearm as though he were a large sized creature, the rest of the build is kaput. Your suggestion (and avr's suggestion) of just using a really big gun is probably a much better option at that point. Although, it does bear mentioning that an ogre or centaur character could pull this off without the feat, so if you still are intent on wielding a cannon, find a large race (or someone to cast enlarge person on you) and avoid the argument. Personally, I don't think it's that much of a stretch, especially since (as you mentioned) characters may already wield whatever size firearms they like.
While Throw Anything does not specify an "improvised projectile weapon" which as you say, is not a phrase mentioned anywhere on the SRD, I would argue that an "improvised ranged weapon" could cover a ship's cannon used in a creative way. Mostly because I think that would be cool, but also because I believe wielding an overlarge and awkward object that was never designed to be a two handed firearm falls well within the established territory of what the improvised weapon rules were designed to cover. If you were my DM, and disagreed, I would respect your judgement and take my -4 to attacks (again, assuming of course you have already agreed to how Goblin Gunslinger was used earlier, or I had been forced to change the character's race to one that was either naturally or magically large).
I'm not sure where the line is on "may use as a two handed firearm" vs "is a two handed firearm" in regard to fast musket, but if your DM is pulling out rationale like that, I think it's safe to assume he doesn't like the build. Or maybe doesn't like you. Maybe consider finding a different group.
One last thing to note: If you were to decide to pursue an ogre cannon wielder, and your DM were hesitant to indulge you in calling a cannon an "improvised ranged weapon" as covered by Throw Anything's umbrella (perhaps because of being caught up by the word "throw" in the feat's name), then I would recommend the Ogre racial feat Quick at Hand instead.
Ganstandt |
There are a few things you forgot to factor in on this build.
1. You never bought exotic weapon proficiency siege engine(any).
2. You cannot use rapid reload on siege weapons.
3. A cannon is not a firearm and can't use firearm alchemical charges to speed up a reload.
4. The cannon requires 3 standard actions to reload.
You would need to find a gm that would let you take rapid reload for siege weapons and have haste on you permanently in order to reload and fire this thing every other turn. Or have a dedicated crew to reload your cannon every turn to let you fire every turn.
A large creature gets around this problem by counting as 4 crew, so they can reload and fire every turn.
Derklord |
I'm sorry to upset you, Dreklord. I realize that the build I proffered is a little unorthodox, and relies on several assumptions. My remarks as to getting your DM drunk to make him agree to the build, or encouraging DMs in the scenario to enact violence on their players are largely intended as attempts at humor.
My offense is literally only with the part I quoted in regards to that statement ("a build that works great if your DM is fun"), because it directly says that any GM not allowing it is not "fun". And since the game is supposed to be fun, this carries the notion that any GM not allowing this build was bad. I think the exact opposite is the case, a GM has to follow the agreed upon rules to be a good GM. If the group has agreed to play Pathfinder, it's the GM's duty to stop builds that outright (and in this case exessively ) break the rules of Pathfinder.
I believe wielding an overlarge and awkward object that was never designed to be a two handed firearm falls well within the established territory of what the improvised weapon rules were designed to cover.
Not the slightest. The improvised weapon rules describes them as "objects not crafted to be weapons", and that the objects are "not designed for this use". You are using a weapon designed to be loaded, pointed at a target, and then fired by loading it, pointing it at a target, and firing it. That's exactly the use it was designed for. A cannon is made to be a weapon, and it's used as a weapon, even if you carry it on your shoulder instead of whatever it's suppoed to be mounted on. That's not an improvised weapon, period.
Oversized weapon rules are completely seperate from improvised weapon rules.
If you use an object as an improvised weapon, you stop using any rules that normally govern it, and any statistics it may have, apart from its size and weight. I don't think you could actually use a cannon as an improvised weapon, as it doesn't have a listed weight, but even if you could, it would be a melee weapon or thrown weapon with a 10ft range increment, target regular AC, and crit for x2 damage. It wouldn't profit from anythign that improves cannons (e.g. Weapon Focus), as per this FAQ.
I'm not sure where the line is on "may use as a two handed firearm" vs "is a two handed firearm" in regard to fast musket, but if your DM is pulling out rationale like that, I think it's safe to assume he doesn't like the build. Or maybe doesn't like you.
Or maybe the GM simply wants to do a game of Pathfinder, not make-up-your-own-rules. You're once again implying that a GM who doesn't let you do anything you want is a bad GM, and I have to object to that.
Name Violation |
There are a few things you forgot to factor in on this build.
1. You never bought exotic weapon proficiency siege engine(any).
2. You cannot use rapid reload on siege weapons.
3. A cannon is not a firearm and can't use firearm alchemical charges to speed up a reload.
4. The cannon requires 3 standard actions to reload.
You would need to find a gm that would let you take rapid reload for siege weapons and have haste on you permanently in order to reload and fire this thing every other turn. Or have a dedicated crew to reload your cannon every turn to let you fire every turn.
A large creature gets around this problem by counting as 4 crew, so they can reload and fire every turn.
A creature that is proficient in firearms is also proficient in siege firearms, but not other siege engines.
linkGanstandt |
A creature that is proficient in firearms is also proficient in siege firearms, but not other siege engines.
link
Musket master only gets two handed firearms proficiency. You need to re-buy ewp firearms in order to use pistols and firearm siege weapons.
The cannon is a standard siege weapon, on the standard siege weapon list, thus you would need to pick up exotic weapon proficiency (cannon) in order to wield it without the non-proficient penalty. Or any siege weapon proficiency, including picking up ewp firearms and then also picking up siege master to get proficiency in all siege weapons.
Claxon |
I'm sorry to upset you, Dreklord. I realize that the build I proffered is a little unorthodox, and relies on several assumptions.
I'm going to side with Derlord on this.
The implication of your introduction is that anyone who wouldn't allow your build to work is badwrongfun and a bad GM.
Personally I see it the exact opposite, any GM who would allow this and wouldn't tell other players in advance that they can make equally ridiculous builds is a bad GM who is enabling one players fun at the expense of others.
Your build isn't unorthodox. It's not a slightly different interpretation of the rules.
It's out and out wrong and breaking the rules.
That doesn't mean you couldn't ask a GM to let you play it, but you shouldn't be surprised when most tell you no.
Quixote |
I feel like the OP's post was pretty lighthearted and playful. It's important to be aware of how your audience might interpret what you say (sometimes you can offend people without meaning to), but I think it's also important to try and see what the speaker is trying to convey before stringing them up for implications they didn't deliberately imply. Communication, two way street, etc.
It's a fun concept and an interesting thought exercise, but it does seem to stretch the rules too thin in several places.
I'd be interested in seeing a steampunk- goblin warren, with...maybe a hobgoblin gunslinger at the head? Something that feels similar to this. Add in some goblin alchemists, crazy seige engines, a couple trolls and a bugbear sniper.
Claxon |
I mean, I'd be all for finding a way to play a goblin which wields a culverin (an actual firearm instead of siege weapon) that was oversized and having a comical sort of effect. And in might be one thing to stretch those rules in some places, but I feel like the OP just out right disregarded the rules and just said "Hey mate, don't worry. It's fineeeeee." with a wink and a grin like we should just accept it.
Quixote |
Goblin Gunslinger plus large goblin equalling large-sized firearms definitely isn't RAW, but I can see the logic there. I can't say I'd disallow it (though "large goblin"... no. Not in at of my settings).
And going from there to the rules about large characters welding seige weapons? I get it, sure.
Negating all the penalties and getting free reloads and Dex to damage is where I would draw the line. I mean, don't ask for a RAI ruling on some things and try to exploit the RAW of others. C'mon, now.
Actually...a group of ogres who stole some cannons and are trying to use them as muskets would be pretty cool. Not effective on average, but I bet you could make some PC's sweat over the potential carnage. And when the party gets close, the giants have some (very heavy) clubs to beat them with.