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Taken from the Environmental Rules section. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules
Does this mean that Acid Splash does 1d3 + 1d6 damage?
Acid
Corrosive acids deals 1d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as in a vat of acid), which deals 10d6 points of damage per round. An attack with acid, such as from a hurled vial or a monster's spittle, counts as a round of exposure.
The fumes from most acids are inhaled poisons. Those who are adjacent to a large body of acid must make a DC 13 Fortitude save or take 1 point of Constitution damage each round. This poison does not have a frequency, so a creature is safe as soon as it moves away from the acid.
Creatures immune to acid's caustic properties might still drown in it if they are totally immersed (see Drowning).
Aww... that makes me sad.
Aww... that makes me sad.On the other hand, the tears of munchkins......
I wish I had the pleasure of being a munchkin. The GM is pretty restrictive and has a grudge against spell casters so I'm looking for ways to contribute that don't involve a crossbow.
Sleep, Grease, and Color Spray are a good start.
Be an alchemist, they get all the vancian-style preparation goodness of a caster, without being a caster! Plus you'll be able to create acid by the gallon!
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If you want the most powerful wizard cantrips, my opinion is the following
Ray of Frost (Evoker's only):You add 1/2 your level to a ranged touch attack that you can cast all day. At low levels it is only like a d3+1 but at mid/high levels you get a +4 or +5 to damage, thus making your damage more consistent. Too bad it only works with evoker wizards (or admixturists)
Acid Splash:In combat, it stops fast healing and does as much as ray of frost (but I believe no SR and I know fewer things resist acid).
Flare:You can use this to disrupt spellcasters. Just ready to cast this if they are about to cast a spell. Great for when you run out of cantrips.
Daze:Like flare, but a bit more powerful. Too bad it has a 4HD restriction.
Dancing Lights:You pop 4 glowing orbs in there face. GM's may vary, but I have seen this work for a -1 to attack rolls, concentration checks to cast spells, whatever the GM thinks would apply.
Be an alchemist, they get all the vancian-style preparation goodness of a caster, without being a caster! Plus you'll be able to create acid by the gallon!
Something tells me the GM in question would hate that even more.
*stuffs Paragon Surge spell back in his bag*
Well, I guess that wont go...
DESCRIPTION
You fire a small orb of acid at the target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The orb deals 1d3 points of acid damage. This acid disappears after 1 round.
What is the purpose of the last line about the acid existing for 1 round? Does the acid do anything while existing? Does it somehow behave as environmental acid?
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DESCRIPTION
You fire a small orb of acid at the target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The orb deals 1d3 points of acid damage. This acid disappears after 1 round.What is the purpose of the last on the about the acid existing for 1 line?
Stuff created by Instantaneous conjuration creation spells usually lasts forever once created, so, without that sentence, someone with that cantrip could cast that spell every round, for hours on end, as part of his apprenticeship, to create hundreds of gallons of acid for his spellcasting guild or mean penny-pinching instructor to sell for many hundreds of gold pieces. (And driving down the price of acid, conjured or alchemical, to mere copper, within a couple of days, since anybody who wants acid, for tanning or metal work or whatever, already has buckets of the stuff...)
Creation: a creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.
Create water, another instantaneous conjuration (creation) cantrip has the same caveat, although the water lasts 1 day.
Essentially, both cantrips have these limits so that they don't unduly change setting assumptions, in a world where they can be cast at will, instead of a limited number of times per day.
Clearly Prestidigitation is the most powerful cantrip.
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Clearly Prestidigitation is the most powerful cantrip.
Ah, I forgot to add that one to my list, along with mage hand. Think of how awesome that cantrip would be in real life (Free microwave, artificial flavoring, spammable card decks, etc.) and with Mage Hand, just drop daggers on people when they annoy you.
Detect Magic is the cantrip I use the most often, hands down. That doesn't necessarily make it the best, though.
It all depends on the role your caster has adopted, and how you are identifying "powerful". Almost all of them are great if used intelligently. Two that I haven't seen mentioned that I have used to GREAT effect over the years are "dancing lights" and "ghost sound". With two casters in the party combining those two is remarkably powerful.
In terms of what cantrip is used the most and is the most indispensable when used, "light" and "detect magic" would be near my top.
Damage dealing cantrips would be near the bottom of my list for many, many reasons. "Prestidigitation" is great for role playing or flavor, and "mage hand" is very situational, but a lot of fun.
Can't you wear through stone walls with Acid splash given enough time however?
Its one of my favorites really. Locked door? Lemme just take a minute. A full minute of splash the lock should do the trick.
Can't you wear through stone walls with Acid splash given enough time however?
Its one of my favorites really. Locked door? Lemme just take a minute. A full minute of splash the lock should do the trick.
Only if your GM ignores this rule:
Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.
Which puts your acid splash doing 1 damage. And if the object has any hardness at all gets reduced to 0.
Certainly there are acid mixtures that will eat through a metal lock, but acid splash isn't of that strength.
Detect Magic is probably more powerful. Even partially negating Invisibility is pretty nice.
Read Magic is also pretty powerful if you want to use scrolls reliably at low levels,
especially if you can't spare Skill Ranks to invest in Spellcraft.
Even if he did, unless the thing has a hardness of less than 3 the Acid Splash will still be doing 0 damage a hit.
Hardness doesn't apply to energy attacks; the halving is instead of that, not in addition to.
Unless I'm gravely mistaken.
Also I thought there was a rule about acid usually being an exception to that or something.
Edit: no, I'm an idiot. Hardness does apply.
Ignores??? A GM could easily rule that Acid is particularly effective against Metal. And he'd be telling the truth. And he wouldn't be ignoring that rule.
Did you actually do the math on that? Even if by "GM discretion" it is ruled that the energy type is "especially effective", Hardness still applies. Which is Hardness 8 for most stone/masonry and Hardness 10 for most metal. Which these Cantrips are just not getting past. Objects are also Immune to Critical Hits, so even if it's allowed to "Hold the Charge" for Ranged Touch spells, Coup de Grace will not do anything. Only with pretty substantial damage-augmentation abilities and/or Metamagic can the damage on these start to think about overcoming that Hardness, and even then it will be slow going getting thru the actual HPs. (90hp/1' thickness of masonry, 180hp/1' thickness of stone, 60hp/2" thickness of metal or 360hp/1' of thickness of metal)
Hardness doesn't apply to energy attacks; the halving is instead of that, not in addition to.
Unless I'm gravely mistaken.
I think it's safe to say you're mistaken, if not necessarily GRAVELY mistaken ;-).
Besides not saying that Hardness doesn't apply, the entry for Energy Damage and Damaging Objects explicitly recognizes that Hardness still does apply:Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness.There IS an additional category that is relevant here: Vulnerability, but no guidance is given, so unless an energy type or material type explicitly says so, there is no reason to expect it to apply:
Vulnerability to Certain Attacks: Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may ignore the object's hardness.
Yea acid vs metal and fire vs wood are pretty much the reason for the certain objects exception.
But unlike the "particularly effective" rule, that rule is not suggested to be up to GM discretion.
The "whole section" isn't filled with GM interpretation, any more than the rest of the rule-set, only the specific mention of GM discretion is.
The "Vulnerability" rule can be invoked by any material/damage type combination that wish to invoke it, but the rules aren't calling out "apply this as you wish".
Sure, that's what "any more than the rest of the rule-set" means.
Of the elemental damage cantrips, is Acid Splash the best?
Better than Ray of Frost, or Jolt?
I would say yes. I'm still fairly certain I can get through a 1/2 inch of a metal hinge with it. Or obliterate some portion of a locking mechanism with it. Provided its made of metal. Perhaps I was over exaggerating with the stone wall. I think the energy types were more fleshed out in 3.5 in regards to objects. And I was fairly certain acid auto bypassed hardness.
Yup thats where I was getting it from. Acid and Sonic in 3.5 ignored Hardness.
Disregarding the (By RAW likely impossible) object destruction effects, Acid Splash is the superior one for the simple fact that it is A.) The least commonly resisted element and B.) Ignores SR.
It's identical in every other way as far as I know.
Disregarding the (By RAW likely impossible) object destruction effects, Acid Splash is the superior one for the simple fact that it is A.) The least commonly resisted element and B.) Ignores SR.
It's identical in every other way as far as I know.
Ray of Frost is evocation allowing evokers to up its damage.
Disregarding the (By RAW likely impossible) object destruction effects, Acid Splash is the superior one for the simple fact that it is A.) The least commonly resisted element and B.) Ignores SR.
It's identical in every other way as far as I know.
Acid splash is not a ray and as such is not counted as a weapon for things like inspire courage, flagbearer and such.
I have once (as a thought experiment) made a level 1 sorc build who could deal 1d3+7 damage with his ray of frost. It would have been somewhat less with acid splash.
Cantrips are great if used thoughtfully. Imagine if your wizard were CONSTANTLY accompanied by a 5# sack of stones? Especially when you ready an action to drop it from several feet away on the head of anyone coming through a door.
Prestidigitation + anything is a great spell combo in spell traps. Personally I like Pres. + Create Water. Soda fountains, cold springs, colored water, etc.
Create Water spammed enough times makes loose soil and earth into muddy loam. A 5# sack of clay, + Create Water, and suddenly you've got 5# of slick mud. Pretty handy if you don't have any more Grease spells laying around...
Create Water can also be a shower if you're not dropping it into a container. That and Prestidigitation might be enough for Concealment so the rogue can stealth if your GM's nice.
Have a rogue in the party with Craft: Trapsmith? Have access to coiled wire? Consider having some spring-loaded traps made for your next dungeon delve. Have them be unlocked and simple to open and spring. Then cast Open/Close for some real fun!
Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, etc are fine attack options (as shown above or in other build threads) when combined with feats and character options. Their damage can get as high as a crossbow, they can be used as Sneak Attacks and better yet, since they're energy damage they can affect A LOT of things. Acid Splash, on its own won't do enough damage but an Acid Splash juiced up enough to do 1d3+6 can burn through wood or possibly even stone. That's a real corner case though, so I wouldn't count on it.
Never underestimate the power of Dancing Lights and Ghost Sound. These two are some of the best distractions you can provide at low levels. Not to mention the fact that you can have FOUR torches, not just one, floating around you and re-spamming every so often for NO visibility issues. Ever.
Message. How many times has my group of players yelled at the ranger for sneaking away so far and then NOT being able to tell them she's under attack so they waste valuable time finding her? Finally I became a benevolent GM and politely reminded my wizard player that his character could ensure that none of the party was EVER outside communications.
There are SO many good utilities here. You don't have to be a b/a or a spell monster to use them well, just be creative and really consider their use. Sure, a lot of these uses run out by about level 5-6, but by then you've got so many spells/resources you no longer need them. Even still, the last thing to remember about cantrips is... YOU CAN DO THEM ALL DAY!
If your party is captured and all your weapons removed, so long as the wizard's chains are loose enough for them to use Somatic components he's NEVER unarmed (Ray of Frost is only V/S to cast). If it weighs 5# or less you NEVER have to pick it up or move it at all. You'll never be without water, or light.
Look at it another way; human beings have forever been plagued by the basic needs of food, water and shelter. If Your party has casters with access to Create Water and a single attack cantrip other than Disrupt Undead, combined with at least 1 rank in Survival, you'll NEVER have to deal w/those basic needs ever again. You can use survival to find small game, shoot it w/Ray of Frost and then thaw/cook it over an fire started with Spark. You then fill all your canteens with fresh water and you're fine indefinitely. Need shelter? Mage Hand to stack twigs/branches/small logs/pine boughs/bracing stones and make a ridiculous survival shelter 5#'s at a time.
Seriously, sometimes I wonder why people make fun of these things...
Yea acid vs metal and fire vs wood are pretty much the reason for the certain objects exception.
These are classic conclusions but I have to mention that using a spark on a fresh log outside or acid on the usually (and historicaly) corrosion-resistant metal locks (rust and locks really can't play well ...) won't always mean WIN!
I simply don't think that acid vs metal and fire vs wood should be assumed as "by default" situations.
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There are so many ways to analyze and resolve the attempts to use cantrips in "creative" ways. Especially for those who want to walk the line between "real world physics" and "magic".
Some things to consider are:
1. Real World Physics: "Acid" is not a "thing". It's a chemical designation that covers a wide range of substances. Some of those substances are quite good at dissolving metals. Some are quite bad. In many cases the acids that are very good at dissolving organic compounds (like, say, human tissue) are very bad at dissolving metals. So, what kind of "acid" is the acid in "acid splash" or other acid based spells or effects in the game? In fact some of the most caustic substances that do the best job of dissolving things are actually bases, the very opposite of acids. So if a player were to play the "real world physics" card on me I might very well decide that "acid spash" is an acid that is very good against flesh, but pretty much useless against metal.
2. Magic: "Acid" in the game is not a specific chemical, it's an energy type. As such it only does exactly what the energy type "acid" says it does, nothing more, and as such, a piddly cantrip level of damage might fail to penetrate the objects hardness by rule.
3. Real World Physics: Acid is not an instantaneous thing. In most cases it's not fast at all. Mythbusters did an episode on acid dissolving a bunch of different types of materials and some of the strongest acids (including hydrochloric and hydrofluoric acids) barely made a blemish on any of the objects (except sheetrock, which it totally dissolved) in EIGHT HOURS. To get any decently fast response (still measured in tens of minutes, not seconds) required adding a "secret sauce" that accelerated the acid's effect. The "secret sauce" was hydrogen peroxide, which greatly accelerates the acid reaction. So if you want to acid through a lock, and you want to play "real world physics" you better have a bunch of hydrogen peroxide on you. And hydrogen peroxide is a pretty dangerous substance.
4. Game Rules as Written: It is never clear in the rules of the system when objects are made of actual chemistry, or when they are made of the "elements" of fire, earth, air, etc. The rules tend to bounce around and do a little of both. What is "fire?" Is it chemical oxidation of air, or is it an elemental force? You can't really be sure. So what is acid? Who knows?
5. Game Rules as Intended: It's all about game balance. Cantrips do what cantrips do, no more, no less. Trying to get them to do more is a game exploit and should be avoided simply to keep the game from becoming a rules arms race.
Now, having said that, I like creativity and tend to reward players who come up with clever ways to utilize their resources. But I also run my own world and in my world the world does follow real world physics when I can, just for consistency's sake. So in my game if someone ever tried to acid splash a lock, I'd probably tell them that it's very, VERY slow going, and the rest of the party might want to go out for dinner and a show while the cantrip is being cast until the caster is hoarse. Unless they figure out how to accelerate the process. One of the drawbacks of being a physicist is that if someone wants to play the "physics" card, I can pull out the whole deck.
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And hydrogen peroxide is a pretty dangerous substance.
Sure you're not thinking of a hydroxide (of some kind)?
Because the hydrogen peroxide in my bathroom has yet to hurt me.
And hydrogen peroxide is a pretty dangerous substance.Sure you're not thinking of a hydroxide (of some kind)?
Because the hydrogen peroxide in my bathroom has yet to hurt me.
Go check out the concentration of hydrogen peroxide in that bottle Rynjin. Or better yet, do some research on hydrogen peroxide.
Highly concentrated hydrogen peroxide is a highly reactive substance and was used widely as rocket fuel. It is considered a highly toxic caustic agent. It is commonly used in making improvised explosives.
Go check out the concentration of hydrogen peroxide in that bottle Rynjin. Or better yet, do some research on hydrogen peroxide.
Highly concentrated hydrogen peroxide is a highly reactive substance and was used widely as rocket fuel. It is considered a highly toxic caustic agent.
Highly concentrated ANYTHING is pretty dangerous though. You could probably distill marshmallow fluff into a dangerous substance if you were truly determined to do so.
But if you're "carrying around a bottle of" hydrogen peroxide it's not very likely to be a high grade, high concentration propellant.
I was just asking because I remember a few people in my high school Chem class making a similar mistake, mixing up hydrogen peroxide and hydroxide (which, if I recall, mixes with pretty much ANYTHING to produce caustic substances, like lye?).
Though now I think of it, you're a physicist of some kind aren't you? Not likely to make that mistake lol.
Moving on. =)