How Does Minions and Slowed Interact?

[Tweezer]

If I cast Animate Dead to summon a Zombie Brute, the minion rules would suggest, that said zombie gets two actions like any other Summon.

The zombie stat Block, however, states that it is permanently slowed, which would suggest it then only gets one action.

It was pointed out to me, that Slow as written only takes effect at the beginning of a turn, and since a minion doesn't have a turn, but acts on your turn, it doesn't apply.

So how many actions does a Summoned zombie have, 1 or 2,and if it has 2, does that mean that all minions are immune to being slowed?

[Brício Mares]

I would like to hear an official position about this.

[Deadmanwalking]

By a strict mechanical read, both Slowed and Quickened have no effect on minions, since they apply when the target gets a turn and minions don't get a turn.

I think that also works better from a gameplay standpoint and makes zombies good summon targets, which is thematically a good thing, so I'd go with the strict mechanical reading in this case.

[Unicore]

This is interesting.

Actions are only gained or lost at the beginning of your turn in the initiative. Commanded minions do not act in initiative order, they act on your turn, thus they never interact with step 1: Start Your Turn, of a turn.

The way the slowed condition is written, it could not really effect minions because it reduces the number of actions you regain at the beginning of your turn. Minions never "regain" their actions unless they are acting on their own, which, by the rules, can only happen after going a minute of not being commanded. So any creature acting on their own, getting their own actions, could be affected by slowed, but a minion who is being commanded really could not, by the rules as written. It doesn't look like haste or stunned could have any effect on them either.

[Claxon]

This honestly seems like a weird oversight in the rules.

I would hope that summoned creatures could be affected by an enemy casting slow on them. And if that works, then they should be able to be affected by an ally casting haste on them. But would also mean that a summoned zombie's permanent slow condition would still affect them.

Honestly summoning + haste could be too potent a force multiplier if allowed to work.

So I could see an argument saying that haste doesn't work. But that would imply that slow shouldn't work either, and that feels wrong to me.

It's definitely a weird grey area of the rules.

[Deadmanwalking]

Claxon wrote:

It's definitely a weird grey area of the rules.

It's a weird area of the game where the rules are counterintuitive, but it's not a grey area of the rules. The rules are really clear that neither Slowed nor Quickened effect minions...that's just an odd thing to be true in some ways.

Personally, I like it. The trade you're making with the use of minions is one of your actions for two of theirs, making that a better or worse deal should take more than a single 3rd level spell. If people want to hurt the action economy involved in using a minion, they should hit the controller with Slow or Haste. That will make a real difference in your ability to use the minion without violating the rules or getting weird.

[Unicore]

I understand how it feels weird from the perspective of a player imagining how this spell effects creatures in world, but if you really try to apply simulationism to the minion rules, you are going to struggle already. It is pretty easy to imagine that any attempt to magically manipulate minions into going faster or slower is essentially lost in the shuffle of providing commands to them.

I also can understand how it gets weird with feats like Mature Beast Master Companion, that seem to give the companion a free action on your turn, if you don't command them, as there is ambiguity about when in the turn order they gain this action. However, they can't possibly gain that action during the Step 1: Start your Turn phase, as you don't decide whether to use one of your own actions to command them until after that point. Unless a FAQ or Errata is written about companions and actions, it is much cleaner and easy to work into play that no action granting or denying ability interacts with minions, unless it explicitly explains how.

Slow on a druid that casts a summon or a spell with sustain and uses an animal companion is likely to brutally reduce the effectiveness of that caster already.

[manbearscientist]

My take has been that minions aren't affected by slow/haste, unless they gain a turn. The only currently ways to do that are for a familiar to have the Independent ability, or for an animal companion to get an action through Mature Animal Companion. In those cases, I would allow them to lose or gain an action.

That this generally will be in favor of the minion-controller is not lost on me, and is in fact quite intentional. The ability to ignore slow by giving a command or employ the benefits of haste without a command is going to make those class features stronger, and that is part of the intention.

[Kevil]

I believe the discussion should be continued. Because now we definitly know that companions CAN be quickened! Since there is an Energizing Treat that spicifically says "it’s quickened for 1 minute"

[Blave]

No need to discus this any longer. It's been clarified.

Quote:

Pages 301 and 634 (Clarification): Can a minion be quickened or slowed?

Yes. This can be a bit unclear because those conditions apply “at the start of your turn” and a minion can’t typically act until you use an action. Apply these conditions and any other effects that alter a minion’s number of actions when the minion gains its actions, using 2 actions and 0 reactions as the minion’s starting number. Though a minion can’t normally act when it’s not your turn, abilities that specifically grant a minion a reaction provide an exception to this (such as the Ferocious Beasts orc ancestry feat, Advanced Players Guide page 19).

[Gortle]

Which was nice as I have been complaining about it for years Currently #15 in my list.

But as per usual it was a half hearted errata effort. What have they got missed?

Spoiler:

Any ongoing condition or damage. Because they still haven't defined the start or end of a turn for a minion, and that is when these conditions have their effect.

The obvious thing to do is just do it at the beginning and end of their actions. Which is I guess what most sane people do anyway.

[breithauptclan]

Gortle wrote:

The obvious thing to do is just do it at the beginning and end of their actions. Which is I guess what most sane people do anyway.

I would use the beginning and end of the master's turn. Because otherwise the player could cheese the persistent damage by just not giving the minion any actions.