We are heading into combat against some Devils as part of the HR AP. Its going to be a Tough!
So as a mesmerist Im going to try the possession spell (from OA) against one of them as its a non native outsider, however if the devils have protection from good on - what if any bonus does protection from good do to prevent this. Would the devil (if it had it) get another save at +2 to avoid? I get protection from evils comments about possession generically, but then references mind affecting spells.
Im actually LN so my assumption is that protection from good would have no affect anyway (but I am interested).
Also could a dispel magic targeted at the devil actually throw me out of the body? Would they need to know it was possessed?
Look at the relevant section of Protection From <alignment>.
Protection from Evil wrote: Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person. This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion. Notice that it doesn't mention alignment? This line of spells provides a great deal of protection from being controlled. If it is active when you cast possession, the target is immune. If you cast possession while their prot. fr. good is down and they gain it afterwards, they get a new save to suppress the control. Either way, your possession doesn't end, just you're ability to control the subject maybe suppressed.
Dispel Magic would cause the possession spell to end, follow the directions of the spell when its duration ends. They don't need to know that it is a possession, but it would be easier to dispel if they targeted that individual spell. Anyone present when you cast/activate Possession could make a Spellcraft check to know what you are doing. Large amounts of devils have the skill.
It does mention alignment just at the end of the description.
This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
Does that apply to the entire statement?
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person. This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
or just this bit?
While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target.
Thanks that matches my understanding of Dispel magic. Though its psychic magic can by a psychic class so that's not as visible as arcane /divine casting is my understanding. There is probably DM discretion there. But devils probably have a high check chance, so it is probably mute point.
thedr wrote: It does mention alignment just at the end of the description.
This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
Does that apply to the entire statement?
It should apply to the entire statement, but honestly it mostly gets ignored. In practice, most GMs give people under the effect of a protection from <alignment> spell immunity to most control effects regardless of alignment.
I'd ask your GM how he runs it. If he hasn't checked the alignment until now, he should be consistent. If it has never come up in the campaign, he should probably go with RAW.
thedr wrote:
Thanks that matches my understanding of Dispel magic. Though its psychic magic can by a psychic class so that's not as visible as arcane /divine casting is my understanding. There is probably DM discretion there. But devils probably have a high check chance, so it is probably mute point.
Psychic casters don't wiggle their fingers or mumble when they manifest spells. The spells themselves still produce the same effects so spellcraft works just as well with a psychic caster as it does with any other.
There are feats and metamagic to disguise spell casting. Psychics don't get that for free.
Thanks Meirril all very useful. Good point on visibility on psychic magic I see that was cleared up in some later descriptions. Still going to give poseesion vs a fiend a go when the game rolls round. If nothing else its pretty interesting to try it this way round , rather than them possessing people.
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Meirril wrote:
It should apply to the entire statement, but honestly it mostly gets ignored. In practice, most GMs give people under the effect of a protection from <alignment> spell immunity to most control effects regardless of alignment.
I disagree with your statement that "most GMs" don't care about the caster alignment. I know no GM that will allow protection from <alignment> to work against all alignments.
thedr wrote: It does mention alignment just at the end of the description.
This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
Does that apply to the entire statement?
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person. This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
or just this bit?
While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target.
Thanks that matches my understanding of Dispel magic. Though its psychic magic can by a psychic class so that's not as visible as arcane /divine casting is my understanding. There is probably DM discretion there. But devils probably have a high check chance, so it is probably mute point.
It absolutely applies to the entire section... need only look at the full effect of protection from evil to understand that.
protection from evil wrote: This spell wards a creature from attacks by evil creatures, from mental control, and from summoned creatures. It creates a magical barrier around the subject at a distance of 1 foot. The barrier moves with the subject and has three major effects.
First, the subject gains a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saves. Both these bonuses apply against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures.
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person. This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Summoned creatures that are not evil are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.
The entirety of the protection spells effect only applies against effects and creatures of the designated alignment. Each of the three effects of the spell has it's own way of making this distinction.
Meirril wrote: In practice, most GMs give people under the effect of a protection from <alignment> spell immunity to most control effects regardless of alignment. I've never met a GM that ignore the alignment when it comes to the second effect of protection from <alignment> spells. If the caster is not of the designated alignment, their spell is unaffected, if they are of the designated alignment then the target gets all of the bonuses and benefits of their protection. Any GM who ignores it does so either out of ignorance or laziness. The spell is not hard to comprehend and it is quite clear in it's distinction as to what is the second effect, it quite literally labels each effect as First, Second, and Third at the very beginning of each effect.
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