1 - Devil at the Dreaming Palace (GM Reference)

[Deadmanwalking]

Sporkedup wrote:

Here's something I don't want to see lost in the shuffle:

For those GMs running this by milestone leveling, you are not supposed to hit level 5 by the end of this book! In fact, based on book 2, this AP looks like it might be on the much more complicated side when it comes to milestone progress.

Are the GMs who are running it now using milestone?

I'm not running this yet (I am starting an AP soon, and was considering this one, but I gave my players the choice based on brief descriptions and they picked AoA), but I always use milestone leveling, and this definitely seems worth signal boosting. If I'm correct, this response should put it as the first post on a new page, which should help.

[GayBirdGM]

I will be using milestone, personally.

For book 1, level 2 will be before the pagoda. The rest of the milestones there fall into place pretty well, even if they seem a bit fast. Level 3 at the end of the pagoda, level 4 after the house of planes.

Looks like they're supposed to be 5 before checking out the smugglers lair in book 2, so I'll likely just give them level 5 after dealing with Prachett to not have to deal with it. The early parts of book 2 are some simple fights and investigations, so being a level ahead there likely won't really change much for fighting some wasps and friendly ether spiders.

Level 6 for the copper hand hideout, 7 before entering the catacombs and 8 in the middle of it. Luckily it's easier to level quickly in PF2 than in PF1, and my players are mostly prepared to do mid-session level ups. They sometimes go pretty fast so I asked them to expect such things.

[thewastedwalrus]

Alrighty then DMW, I think we're mostly in agreement about the system. Thanks for taking the time to debate this, I appreciate the effort you put into your posts.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Basically all the 'interesting items' belong to people who are almost certainly going to prison. As I mentioned previously, having them sold by the city to pay those people's fines and legal fees, and allowing the PCs to pick those up for fair market price from said sale (they certainly have an in to know where and when such items will be sold, after all), pretty much solves this problem in many ways (basically in all ways a lot of the time...nobody is gonna object to them using the item while still trapped in the dungeon, it's only afterwards that they need to turn it in and eventually re-buy it).

This sounds like a much more standard system, while the end result is essentially the same thing as what the system in the book gives.

For folks planning on changing up the reward system for this book, I would strongly recommend giving the party a set of funds and items that Edgewatch will be willing to buy-back for them equal to the 10-9 Party Treasure by Level table and not just giving each player what is recommended in the 10-10 Character Wealth table. Following the Character Wealth table gets a bit awkward because the players won't be able to take some of the higher-level items they find in the adventure (like the Reaper's Lancet).

[Sporkedup]

GayBirdGM wrote:

I will be using milestone, personally.

For book 1, level 2 will be before the pagoda. The rest of the milestones there fall into place pretty well, even if they seem a bit fast. Level 3 at the end of the pagoda, level 4 after the house of planes.

Looks like they're supposed to be 5 before checking out the smugglers lair in book 2, so I'll likely just give them level 5 after dealing with Prachett to not have to deal with it. The early parts of book 2 are some simple fights and investigations, so being a level ahead there likely won't really change much for fighting some wasps and friendly ether spiders.

Level 6 for the copper hand hideout, 7 before entering the catacombs and 8 in the middle of it. Luckily it's easier to level quickly in PF2 than in PF1, and my players are mostly prepared to do mid-session level ups. They sometimes go pretty fast so I asked them to expect such things.

Yeah, might play out that way. Really though, in book 2 there aren't really two particular milestones to level to 9 in the catacombs. XP could be a really fun way to run this portion, but I am leery of changing the leveling system midway through a campaign.

The only reason I wouldn't run xp for the whole AP has more to do with inconsistent rewards for non-combat situations. Sometimes you get 80xp for identifying a statue of Desna, and other times it's like 12xp for solving a murder. Or maybe that's just me, haha.

[Bast L.]

The reason I was planning on using xp was because the AP seems to reward non-violent resolutions, where possible, with bonus xp. I told the group that we're going to be Track + 1 capped, which is to say, they can get any bonus xp offered, but if they would level to track + 2, then they get to 999, and any extra is wasted.

I'll adjust as needed.

@Luke Styer, Yeah, they actually saw the places to climb up (I gave them an unlabeled map of the place, as the blueprints), but instead wanted to go in and try to speak to the Kobolds.

@LarsC, that does make it slightly less than extreme (150 xp, not counting the trap), assuming they're level 2 (track says still level 1 at this point). Still a good chance at a TPK, maybe. Depends how the trap goes, I'd say. Maybe they spot it while Doopa is away.

[LarsC]

Bast L. wrote:

@LarsC, that does make it slightly less than extreme (150 xp, not counting the trap), assuming they're level 2 (track says still level 1 at this point). Still a good chance at a TPK, maybe. Depends how the trap goes, I'd say. Maybe they spot it while Doopa is away.

(To provide some context, this is regarding the encounter at C2 if Doopa goes to fetch Rekarek from area C10. I had suggested (if Doopa leaves to get Rekarek as the text suggests) leaving Doopa at C10 and swapping the Kobolds in C3 and C11 in order to avoid the lethal encounter as written.)

Reacting to what you're saying, I think 150xp plus a trap still seems really intense. I believe I will also prepare some very strong hinting that if Rekarek drops the pick, the kobolds will start engaging in some extremely sub-optimal play to recover it.

My group and I are recent transplants from 5e, so I don't know the feel of this system terribly well yet, so I don't really understand how it is that I saw this issue on my first reading of the AP, but there's no commentary in the AP's text to account for a lethal encounter (200-some xp as written) during such a story-inessential moment so early in the PCs' careers.

I guess I'm just venting general frustration - I don't think this is a Paizo thing - I see it constantly in all sorts of published adventures, but I wish I, as a GM, didn't need to constantly be on my toes like this. When I'm preparing professionally written material, I wish I didn't need to scour for encounters that would smoke my entire party and turn my friends off from the system at the beginning of a huge campaign.

[Jon Yamato 705]

I agree with what's been said about problematic aspects of this AP.

On the other hand, Dreaming Palace is the first 2nd edition episode that actually makes me want to run it--fixed up, yes, but the material is exciting to me, and that mostly has not been happening. The nightclub is *so cool.* The menagerie and the kobold project are pretty cool too. The murder hotel is a neat idea though I am iffier about the implementation.

I am worried about the bit in the murder hotel chapter where it says that if the PCs ask the BBG for a tour, "of course" he just uses it as a pretext to kill them. (a) This is not the most interesting continuation, and (b) I think he's likely to succeed if he's at all smart about it. The scenario is not balanced for taking the most dangerous of the rooms and adding him and his henchwoman to it.

In the first episode of an AP it is particularly important to cue how you want the players to proceed. There are a couple of points where this one cues in the wrong direction: the kobold TPK that others have noted, and I think this one as well. You should *want* the PCs to do cool non-combat things like asking for a tour and trying to weasel out information without giving any in return. A TPK or near-TPK says that's not what you wanted, and you likely won't get it in future episodes, which would be a pity.

But still, wow! those are some seriously exciting chapters. I hope to see more like this.

[dharkus]

maybe you should all stop complaining about it and offer solutions? or go make another thread to complain?
there's more than 1 thing in the AP that needs discussing here, like the normal stuff discussed in these threads normally - such as:
The Exploding Statue Hazard in C7 says " The statue explodes, spraying shrapnel to the west in a 5-foot cone and dealing 1d10+7 piercing and 1d10 fire damage to all creatures in the affected area"
What is a 5ft cone shaped like?! obviously not just a 5ft square, cause no chance (barring familiars) there's gonna be more than one person in a square! Maybe it's a typo and it should be a 15ft cone? assuming the statue to the left of the door that's already exploded is the same, 15ft cone might make sense for the existing dmg maybe?

[dharkus]

another thing - does anyone know where to find a good picture of a flash beetle? there's pics for fire beetle and for 2e on the bestiary page, a stag beetle, but no flash beetle that i can see? anywhere else there'd be an image in a paizo source for one? or something else to search for other than flash beetle on google that would find the right sorta thing?

[Grankless]

People actually have been offering solutions in this thread, thank you very much. The GM thread for the book is both the most obvious place to have the discussion and the best place. "How to solve the issues of the AP" wouldn't exactly do people a lot of favors if it drops to the bottom of the page, or page 2. It should be exactly where the highest number of GMs can read it - the GM discussion thread.

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah, in terms of fixes for the loot issue I think three big ones have been suggested:

#1: Use Automatic Bonus Progression and give the PCs some sort of nominal salary.

#2: Give the PCs a salary based on the WBL tables. This is really pretty doable.

#3: Give the PCs rewards/bounties from the Edgewatch for accomplishing specific jobs. This is the most 'traditional' option, and should work fine.

In the case of both #2 and #3, anyone actually guilty of a crime arrested with cool magic gear may be assumed to have had it confiscated by the city to pay fines and legal fees, and the PCs may buy such gear from the city for normal market price with their own money.

The solutions very much exist.

[dharkus]

what type of resistance does skerix have from dragonscaled? she's not any of the listed colours! Perhaps she's a custom gold? so fire?

[Drental]

Thanks, this will certainly come in handy while I GM.

That said, the Players guide says the AP is easily converted to not be about Law enforcement and offers bounty catchers and treasure hunters that are set on the crimes by the festivals planning commitee. The players guide also has no idea about the civil forfeiture issue, which would still be a thing as written? All in all that does not solve the issue at its heart and only makes it more messy by allowing basically anyone to don a badge and rob on sight of any misdemeanor.

I'll add that I am german and this hits pretty close to the Stasi, but worse. So I am left to redo almost all informants and reworking the treasure acquisition mechanism. I might be missing obvious things here, and considering that most of my players actively worship Ragathiel I have a servicable hook, but it does not feel like "Fortunately, it is a relatively simple matter to remove the law enforcement themes completely from this Adventure Path" - the Law enforcement themes do hinge upon the official payroll, not just the name of the employer.

[GayBirdGM]

Jon Yamato 705 wrote:

I am worried about the bit in the murder hotel chapter where it says that if the PCs ask the BBG for a tour, "of course" he just uses it as a pretext to kill them. (a) This is not the most interesting continuation, and (b) I think he's likely to succeed if he's at all smart about it. The scenario is not balanced for taking the most dangerous of the rooms and adding him and his henchwoman to it.

I quite agree, a little boring to just have him start trying to shank them during the tour. I'd prefer to do it like when it says Ralso gives them a tour, showing them certain rooms[while saying other rooms are occupied], maybe having the traps disabled during the tour. Make everything look nice and normal and send them on their way. If they get too insistent, maybe say they'll need a warrant to invade the privacy of the guests. Maybe they'll buy it.

I really hope I can keep them from suspecting Prachett until close to the very end, it'll be so much more entertaining that way!

Jon Yamato 705 wrote:

In the first episode of an AP it is particularly important to cue how you want the players to proceed. There are a couple of points where this one cues in the wrong direction: the kobold TPK that others have noted, and I think this one as well. You should *want* the PCs to do cool non-combat things like asking for a tour and trying to weasel out information without giving any in return. A TPK or near-TPK says that's not what you wanted, and you likely won't get it in future episodes, which would be a pity.

But still, wow! those are some seriously exciting chapters. I hope to see more like this.

The kobold TPK is..iffy to me.

I feel like players should definitely have time to see the trap, or even accidentally trigger it while Doopa is gone and react accordingly, unless the PCs decide to stand and buffer like a video game NPC while she's gone. I'd also give them a reprieve if they take down Rekarek, having at least 2 kobolds if they're still alive fighting over the weapon and waste actions on that, with Doopa maybe not fighting as hard since she is fond of Ama and the players were sent by her.

I also agree, tho. These chapters are amazingly fun! I cannot wait to run it. ^-^

[dharkus]

does doopa stop them before they reach the trap by like aiming her crossbow or something? it says, she "has been tasked with guarding the front door, which she does from the opposite side of this pavilion", i.e. on the other side of the trap.

[dharkus]

does anyone have a plan for what to do if someone actually falls into one of the pits in the dreaming palace? all the encounters in the basement assume lvl 4. you could give em lvl 4 as they fall, which'd be pretty wierd, apply weak to all the enemies (or remove elite) - but then what about when they come back upstairs eventually? apply the elite template to everyone at that point?
milestone lvling or xp lvling are a bit weird when you're expected to lvl up in a floor transition, is it supposed to be like, "you're found the basement, lvl up!"?

[Kazimir_980]

dharkus wrote:

does anyone have a plan for what to do if someone actually falls into one of the pits in the dreaming palace? all the encounters in the basement assume lvl 4. you could give em lvl 4 as they fall, which'd be pretty wierd, apply weak to all the enemies (or remove elite) - but then what about when they come back upstairs eventually? apply the elite template to everyone at that point?

milestone lvling or xp lvling are a bit weird when you're expected to lvl up in a floor transition, is it supposed to be like, "you're found the basement, lvl up!"?

I honestly had no idea how to tackle this. Luckily my PCs somehow avoided all the pitfall traps and have just made it to Pratchett's office, allowing them to go down into the basement the "correct" way.

I considered only having the pit traps on the second floor drop them to the bottom (since if they make it to the second floor, they're pretty close to going down the correct way). The first floor pit traps might just be 10 foot pits that they take damage from and need to climb out of.

[GM Facepalm]

Battle Leader does so much damage on a critical.

3d12+6 !!!

The Haphazard Hack ability of +12 to hit took down 3 PC's over a few quick rounds. Level 1 PC's...

[BobTheCoward]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

#2: Give the PCs a salary based on the WBL tables. This is really pretty doable.

#3: Give the PCs rewards/bounties from the Edgewatch for accomplishing specific jobs. This is the most 'traditional' option, and should work fine.

Both of these involve the player owning the equipment. Automatic bonus progression reduces the need to own gear.

I like the idea of a budget and requisition with no ownership....and just a cruddy salary.

[Deadmanwalking]

BobTheCoward wrote:

Both of these involve the player owning the equipment. Automatic bonus progression reduces the need to own gear.

That's correct.

BobTheCoward wrote:

I like the idea of a budget and requisition with no ownership....and just a cruddy salary.

You can certainly do this if it fits the specific themes you're aiming for.

But it honestly stops making a lot of sense past the lowest levels. A 10th level character can make ludicrous amounts of money in the private sector, and I do mean ludicrous. Not paying them commensurately with their capabilities would result in no longer having high level people working for you, and Absalom (being the sort of city it is) needs to retain such personnel rather desperately. High level people are well nigh irreplaceable assets, and are generally valued accordingly.

Now, having some gear be requisitioned rather than owned makes a lot of sense (I'd give them some sort of consumables budget for precisely this reason), but not making money beyond a cruddy salary doesn't make a lot of sense for people with the kind of inherent power of high level characters.

And players will often respond by leaving the Edgewatch and finding someone who will actually pay them what they're worth, just as real people would. They're used to the idea that high level characters have lots of money (mostly invested in good equipment that they personally own), and will see plenty of evidence that this remains true outside the Edgewatch. Even if they're invested in the main plotline, many will simply quit and explore said plotline on their own, either finding a patron to support them or resorting to looting fallen foes like most PCs.

[BobTheCoward]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

BobTheCoward wrote:

Both of these involve the player owning the equipment. Automatic bonus progression reduces the need to own gear.

That's correct.

BobTheCoward wrote:

I like the idea of a budget and requisition with no ownership....and just a cruddy salary.

You can certainly do this if it fits the specific themes you're aiming for.

But it honestly stops making a lot of sense past the lowest levels. A 10th level character can make ludicrous amounts of money in the private sector, and I do mean ludicrous. Not paying them commensurately with their capabilities would result in no longer having high level people working for you, and Absalom (being the sort of city it is) needs to retain such personnel rather desperately. High level people are well nigh irreplaceable assets, and are generally valued accordingly.

Now, having some gear be requisitioned rather than owned makes a lot of sense (I'd give them some sort of consumables budget for precisely this reason), but not making money beyond a cruddy salary doesn't make a lot of sense for people with the kind of inherent power of high level characters.

And players will often respond by leaving the Edgewatch and finding someone who will actually pay them what they're worth, just as real people would. They're used to the idea that high level characters have lots of money (mostly invested in good equipment that they personally own), and will see plenty of evidence that this remains true outside the Edgewatch. Even if they're invested in the main plotline, many will simply quit and explore said plotline on their own, either finding a patron to support them or resorting to looting fallen foes like most PCs.

Since it is probably the shortest campaign in AP history, you could just say, "you get paid aligned with your performance, but are not permitted to bring your own gear" and never say how much it is.

Also, the idea of godlike mortals serving police for paltry pay isn't an unheard of trope.....that is like the show "Bones."

Bit of a joke....wanted to get in a dig at Bones.

[Deadmanwalking]

BobTheCoward wrote:

Since it is probably the shortest campaign in AP history, you could just say, "you get paid aligned with your performance, but are not permitted to bring your own gear" and never say how much it is.

There are some notable issues with that in Books 5 and 6 given that the PCs wind up on the outs with the force (as in, fired and disgraced). At that point, there's no motivation not to use 'their own equipment' and you need to figure out what they have.

So, I mean, you could have them entirely switch out gear for equally valuable gear at that point, but I'm not really seeing the benefit.

[BobTheCoward]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

BobTheCoward wrote:

Since it is probably the shortest campaign in AP history, you could just say, "you get paid aligned with your performance, but are not permitted to bring your own gear" and never say how much it is.

There are some notable issues with that in Books 5 and 6 given that the PCs wind up on the outs with the force (as in, fired and disgraced). At that point, there's no motivation not to use 'their own equipment' and you need to figure out what they have.

So, I mean, you could have them entirely switch out gear for equally valuable gear at that point, but I'm not really seeing the benefit.

Haven't read them yet.

[Kasoh]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

BobTheCoward wrote:

Since it is probably the shortest campaign in AP history, you could just say, "you get paid aligned with your performance, but are not permitted to bring your own gear" and never say how much it is.

There are some notable issues with that in Books 5 and 6 given that the PCs wind up on the outs with the force (as in, fired and disgraced). At that point, there's no motivation not to use 'their own equipment' and you need to figure out what they have.

So, I mean, you could have them entirely switch out gear for equally valuable gear at that point, but I'm not really seeing the benefit.

Since we don't know what their exact circumstances are, its easily forseeable that they walk off with their Edgewatch/Starguys issued gear and resort to a regular PC economy afterwards.

My take is that this first book should emphasize the mundanity and drudgery of regular police work, often for middling compensation. Lots of lost kids, taking noise complaints, drunk handling, etc.. The notion of an exciting case should invest them in it and make them eager for promotion. I think that will flow nicely into book 2 where they stop doing patrol work and start doing detective work.

[BobTheCoward]

If we are doing the good cops dismissed trope, we could also do technician snuggles gear out to framed cops trope.

[Deadmanwalking]

BobTheCoward wrote:

If we are doing the good cops dismissed trope, we could also do technician snuggles gear out to framed cops trope.

Absolutely. That works fine.

The issue is that, at that point, they have no incentive not to use their personal money or gear as well, which makes your suggestion of 'they get paid and paid well, but we never have to deal with it' not really work.

Which means we need to know how much they are paid, and we're right back at 'high level people should be paid as such or the world makes no sense'.

If you have their pay already be how they get level appropriate gear, which they then own, this is no problem at all. If all their gear is requisitioned, however, you're left with three possibilities:

#1. Your players discover you were lying to them about them being paid well. Most players will be upset that you, the GM, lied to them, the players, about something that their characters could have easily known. It's much like not telling the players about a door their characters can see.

#2. They suddenly need to swap all their requisitioned equipment for their personal stuff. This works, but just seems like an unnecessary step.

#3. They manage to keep their requisitioned gear and go grab their personal gear. They now have roughly double expected WBL in gear. This is an issue.

[BobTheCoward]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

BobTheCoward wrote:

If we are doing the good cops dismissed trope, we could also do technician snuggles gear out to framed cops trope.

Absolutely. That works fine.

The issue is that, at that point, they have no incentive not to use their personal money or gear as well, which makes your suggestion of 'they get paid and paid well, but we never have to deal with it' not really work.

Which means we need to know how much they are paid, and we're right back at 'high level people should be paid as such or the world makes no sense'.

If you have their pay already be how they get level appropriate gear, which they then own, this is no problem at all. If all their gear is requisitioned, however, you're left with three possibilities:

#1. Your players discover you were lying to them about them being paid well. Most players will be upset that you, the GM, lied to them, the players, about something that their characters could have easily known. It's much like not telling the players about a door their characters can see.

#2. They suddenly need to swap all their requisitioned equipment for their personal stuff. This works, but just seems like an unnecessary step.

#3. They manage to keep their requisitioned gear and go grab their personal gear. They now have roughly double expected WBL in gear. This is an issue.

Possibility 4, no one cares.

[Johnico]

Is it me, or is Rusty a crazy fight at that point in the adventure? It seems like his numbers are just really high for a level 1 party to deal with.

[Deadmanwalking]

Johnico wrote:

Is it me, or is Rusty a crazy fight at that point in the adventure? It seems like his numbers are just really high for a level 1 party to deal with.

Eh. Even an Elite Rust Monster's actual damaging attack is barely equivalent to that of most 2nd or 3rd level creatures (+10 to hit for 1d10+6 is pretty standard 2nd level Brute stuff), and its should probably spend actions eating equipment as well (which inevitably results in PCs taking less damage). Its defenses are more impressive, but with that anemic offense for its level I wouldn't be too worried.

Rust Monsters are really weak offensively in terms of damage to make up for the fact that they're so costly to fight due to their equipment destruction abilities, but 1st level PCs don't have expensive equipment, and the adventure is built with 50 gp worth of new equipment to replace that which is lost (if going with an alternate pay scheme, the PCs will need to pay for this, or might be reimbursed by the Edgewatch, but either way I'd probably have the grateful Parva let them borrow the gear and pay for it later if they lack the cash, they'd just be expected to pay for it later).

[Zapp]

BobTheCoward wrote:

Automatic bonus progression reduces the need to own gear.

Probably not the ideal place to discuss something a specific as this, but since items benefit martials much more than casters, ABP is a huge money-saver for martials.

My point being that casters are struggling already as is. Just giving striking runes out for free isn't exactly helping.

[Zapp]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

1st level PCs don't have expensive equipment

Yep.

I'd worry when Paizo eventually comes up with a Greater Rust Monster or something that gobbles up your level 15 gear... :)

[Deadmanwalking]

Zapp wrote:

I'd worry when Paizo eventually comes up with a Greater Rust Monster or something that gobbles up your level 15 gear... :)

By 3rd or 4th when the Rust Monster is a standard threat, they've got enough gear that it might be troublesome (I mean, magic weapons are definitely a thing by then). But yeah, not at 1st.

[scyfir]

I'm part way through the menagerie section, and it has already been quite rough on the PCs (Party of 5, did not scale the encounters, but mostly players new to pathfinder). I'm just going to list some stuff that happened as reminders or to spark some ideas.

The PCs managed to tie up the cockatrice with rope and some good grapple checks. I let this end the encounter without having to get it down to 0 hp.

The owlbear downed 2 PCs in one shot each with crits, and rusty downed 1 with a crit. Even without a crit they do about 1/2 a PCs HP. This used up all of the healing they had.

The PCs ended up luring Rusty into closet and locking him in by throwing most the metal gear (daggers, caltrops, etc) they had on the ground to create a trail. Since the PCS never hit him, I had Rusty only use antenna attacks until he ran out of stuff to rust.

I let the PCs sneak up and lock the door on the concession stand to avoid fighting the hyenas.

I completely forgot hero points exist, and never explained them to the group, until I remembered when one of them hit dying 3. Those rerolls probably would have been helpful for these hard fights!

[Virellius]

I personally think levelling up to 2 AFTER part 2 of the book seems strange. I haven't added up all the XP, bonus or otherwise, but does this track with everything they fight?

Going through the menagerie and then the Hostage Situation at level 1 is... wow. Gonna be tough.

[Kasoh]

Virellius wrote:

I personally think levelling up to 2 AFTER part 2 of the book seems strange. I haven't added up all the XP, bonus or otherwise, but does this track with everything they fight?

Going through the menagerie and then the Hostage Situation at level 1 is... wow. Gonna be tough.

If I've done my encounter to xp right, which I can't guarantee, it looks like:

Assuming highest xp awards per encounter.
Noise Complaint 80 xp +30 story xp. 110
Pickle Fight 50 xp (160)
Mugging 60 xp (220)
Risen dead 80 (300)
Apprentice 40 (340)

340 going into the Zoo

Beaktooth 80 xp (420)
Green grocer 80 xp (500)
Smithy 120 xp (620)
Concessions 60 xp (680)
Penguin Pool 60 xp (740)
South Hall 60 xp (800)
Ankhrav 80 xp (880)
Story Award 80 xp (960)
So the Zoo puts the party at 960.

It might be worth it to add another 40 xp encounter to the previous day if you want them to level up before the hostage situation.

[Virellius]

Kasoh wrote:

Virellius wrote:

I personally think levelling up to 2 AFTER part 2 of the book seems strange. I haven't added up all the XP, bonus or otherwise, but does this track with everything they fight?

Going through the menagerie and then the Hostage Situation at level 1 is... wow. Gonna be tough.

If I've done my encounter to xp right, which I can't guarantee, it looks like:

Assuming highest xp awards per encounter.
Noise Complaint 80 xp +30 story xp. 110
Pickle Fight 50 xp (160)
Mugging 60 xp (220)
Risen dead 80 (300)
Apprentice 40 (340)

340 going into the Zoo

Beaktooth 80 xp (420)
Green grocer 80 xp (500)
Smithy 120 xp (620)
Concessions 60 xp (680)
Penguin Pool 60 xp (740)
South Hall 60 xp (800)
Ankhrav 80 xp (880)
Story Award 80 xp (960)
So the Zoo puts the party at 960.

It might be worth it to add another 40 xp encounter to the previous day if you want them to level up before the hostage situation.

Wow, thanks! Yeah to save them having to just... Level up mid-encounter I'll let them level up first. They managed to keep any of the animals from dying, impressively enough, so I'll award them. Thanks for the math!

[Zapp]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Zapp wrote:

I'd worry when Paizo eventually comes up with a Greater Rust Monster or something that gobbles up your level 15 gear... :)

By 3rd or 4th when the Rust Monster is a standard threat, they've got enough gear that it might be troublesome (I mean, magic weapons are definitely a thing by then). But yeah, not at 1st.

Well, sure, but give them even a single level, and they will easily catch up, assuming they have a magic shoppe nearby.

The secret to PF2 pricing is that everything of an item level higher than you is impossibly expensive, while nearly everything of more than a few levels lower than you is trivially cheap (and of little use).

Losing your equipment might be inconvenient, but only for a single level at most. Then you will have amassed enough wealth to make it maybe irritating but not really an issue.

[Thorn]

Kasoh wrote:

Virellius wrote:

I personally think levelling up to 2 AFTER part 2 of the book seems strange. I haven't added up all the XP, bonus or otherwise, but does this track with everything they fight?

Going through the menagerie and then the Hostage Situation at level 1 is... wow. Gonna be tough.

If I've done my encounter to xp right, which I can't guarantee, it looks like:

Assuming highest xp awards per encounter.
Noise Complaint 80 xp +30 story xp. 110
Pickle Fight 50 xp (160)
Mugging 60 xp (220)
Risen dead 80 (300)
Apprentice 40 (340)

340 going into the Zoo

Beaktooth 80 xp (420)
Green grocer 80 xp (500)
Smithy 120 xp (620)
Concessions 60 xp (680)
Penguin Pool 60 xp (740)
South Hall 60 xp (800)
Ankhrav 80 xp (880)
Story Award 80 xp (960)
So the Zoo puts the party at 960.

It might be worth it to add another 40 xp encounter to the previous day if you want them to level up before the hostage situation.

Thanks! I had planned to do this.

It appears you missed two sources of experience. The explosive barrels hazard in the Pickle Fight (12 xp) and returning Jerov to his father after the Ankhrav (30 xp), which conveniently makes the total xp possible 1002.

[Kasoh]

Thorn wrote:

Thanks! I had planned to do this.

It appears you missed two sources of experience. The explosive barrels hazard in the Pickle Fight (12 xp) and returning Jerov to his father after the Ankhrav (30 xp), which conveniently makes the total xp possible 1002.

Good to know, thanks!

[Captain-Green]

Hi guys,

Just putting some prep work into the first AP and coming across the house of planes which is a pretty intresting area looks like fun RP to be had.

Now with the PCs I've got there are a couple of dominant people will try to do most of the talking but want I to give everyone an equal chance to RP.

So looking for a little bit of advice on this idea, when they arrive at the boneyard and finish challenge with the room and get their information (just so they know how what to roughly expect in each of the rooms) I would then proceed with the "judgements" and teleport each of the PC to one of the remaining rooms expect the Hell room.

Allowing each of the PC to experience a room in their own way, once room completed PC would be brought back to the bonyard, once the party is back together i'd have the Pharasma Impersonator reveal the room Hoff is in if it's brought up and allow them to explore the other rooms or revsist one if they so wished to.

[Kasoh]

Captain-Green wrote:

Hi guys,

Just putting some prep work into the first AP and coming across the house of planes which is a pretty intresting area looks like fun RP to be had.

Now with the PCs I've got there are a couple of dominant people will try to do most of the talking but want I to give everyone an equal chance to RP.

So looking for a little bit of advice on this idea, when they arrive at the boneyard and finish challenge with the room and get their information (just so they know how what to roughly expect in each of the rooms) I would then proceed with the "judgements" and teleport each of the PC to one of the remaining rooms expect the Hell room.

Allowing each of the PC to experience a room in their own way, once room completed PC would be brought back to the bonyard, once the party is back together i'd have the Pharasma Impersonator reveal the room Hoff is in if it's brought up and allow them to explore the other rooms or revsist one if they so wished to.

Not a bad way to do it. You could also indicate that there isn't a lot of time so the party should split up at first to cover the most ground if you want to avoid contrived teleportation gimmicks.

It is something of a double edged sword. If you think everyone is really wanting to engage in more RP, but the dominant players overshadow everyone, then this is probably a good solution.

However, if the quieter players just aren't that interested in RP, forcing it upon them can lead to awkward play at the table or impugning on a player's good time. Its not the GM's job to make their players have new experiences or to broaden their horizons. People play the way they play because that's what they like.

I've tried to engage the 'here for combat' or whathaveyou players before to varying success. Its not always pretty. Try it out, see if everyone has a good time, but just because you want more RP doesn't mean the players do.

[Captain-Green]

Kasoh wrote:

Captain-Green wrote:

Hi guys,

Just putting some prep work into the first AP and coming across the house of planes which is a pretty intresting area looks like fun RP to be had.

Now with the PCs I've got there are a couple of dominant people will try to do most of the talking but want I to give everyone an equal chance to RP.

So looking for a little bit of advice on this idea, when they arrive at the boneyard and finish challenge with the room and get their information (just so they know how what to roughly expect in each of the rooms) I would then proceed with the "judgements" and teleport each of the PC to one of the remaining rooms expect the Hell room.

Allowing each of the PC to experience a room in their own way, once room completed PC would be brought back to the bonyard, once the party is back together i'd have the Pharasma Impersonator reveal the room Hoff is in if it's brought up and allow them to explore the other rooms or revsist one if they so wished to.

Not a bad way to do it. You could also indicate that there isn't a lot of time so the party should split up at first to cover the most ground if you want to avoid contrived teleportation gimmicks.

It is something of a double edged sword. If you think everyone is really wanting to engage in more RP, but the dominant players overshadow everyone, then this is probably a good solution.

However, if the quieter players just aren't that interested in RP, forcing it upon them can lead to awkward play at the table or impugning on a player's good time. Its not the GM's job to make their players have new experiences or to broaden their horizons. People play the way they play because that's what they like.

I've tried to engage the 'here for combat' or whathaveyou players before to varying success. Its not always pretty. Try it out, see if everyone has a good time, but just because you want more RP doesn't mean the players do.

Well the party isn't really quiet just some are better at it than others so want allow each person to take the lead, give them each a chance to experience a room to themselves. RP is usually done quickly 5 mins tops so we wouldn't get bogged down by the affair.

But yes the teleportation bit of a gimmick, maybe something else ill have a ponder.

Thanks thou

[Kazimir_980]

Captain-Green wrote:

Well the party isn't really quiet just some are better at it than others so want allow each person to take the lead, give them each a chance to experience a room to themselves. RP is usually done quickly 5 mins tops so we wouldn't get bogged down by the affair.

But yes the teleportation bit of a gimmick, maybe something else ill have a ponder.

Thanks thou

That's incredible. My group of 3 players enjoy RP so much that we spent an entire session at the House of Planes. It turned from a quirky themed bar experience to a conga line snaking its way through the nine realms.

[Smoagendash II]

I have three players, one of whom has read "Devil in the White City" and is therefore almost certainly spoiled by the adventure's title. So I decided to add a bit more noise and options.

I changed the name of the Dreaming Palace to The Golarion Inn, and introduced three other innkeepers at the Tipsy Tengu. They meet weekly to gossip, share information, etc, and so were present during the Noise Complaint section. The other three inns are also distinctive:
-The High Tower Inn (Seven rooms, one/story, great view!)
-The Earth Home (Completely underground)
-The Red Blossom Inn (Comfortable, and a licensed brothel)

The four brawling adventurers were low-ranking members of the Cards Mercenary company, and had identifying patches on their clothes. I want to create more things for the players to think about, and plot and story seeds I can use later if I need to.

{I went to see An Evening with Neil Gaiman many years ago. One thing he said about writing Sandman (and comics in general) as opposed to novels really stuck with me. Once an issue comes out, the plot, characters, etc. are fixed. One cannot easily retcon earlier issues without weakening the narrative. So he littered Sandman with little odd story details and embellishments, some of which provided him with hooks he used later in the series. But when he was writing the earlier issues, he had NO IDEA which details would later become significant.}

I also added a plot hook by expanding the skeletons encounter. The Mugging at The Walking Castle resulted in a chase that ended when the
thief ran into a ruined area that had been fenced off. After catching the mugger, skeletons emerge from a ravine and attack. After the fight, the PCs notices the the vegetation around the ravine is wilted. Backtracking the skeletons' trail into the ravine, they discover a shallow hollow/cave, and a strange cache consisting of a sealed burlap sack of dirt and a pouch containing some cash and a tome of necromancy. I'm not a huge fan of the adventure paths current big bads, and want to lay some groundwork for replacing the Norgorber cultists with minions of the Whispering Tyrant. If nothing else, I want to create an alternative explanation for the missing persons.

I always wanted to do a vampire hunt in a major city. The vamp is a minion of the Tyrant, using the Fair as cover. The Lieutenant will dismiss the idea of a vampire, leaving the PCs on their own to investigate. If anyone has any ideas for encounters to advance the vampire hunt plotline, please shout out! I'm stumped for ideas right now.

I might create an opium den called the Dreaming Palace, just to throw off any players who might be meta-playing. I thought about changing the name of the House of Planes to the Dreaming Palace, but that wouldn't work well.

[Smoagendash II]

Reading through the section describing the Dreaming Palace itself, I think there's a critical flaw running through it: once the PCs understand the rooms are trapped, they won't go inside if they can possibly help it. They will open the door and look inside. If the room is empty, great! Close the door and move on. If there are guests, the PCs will ask them to leave, standing in the doorway to prevent the door from closing and locking.

How to lure them into the rooms that they know are likely trapped?

[Captain-Green]

Smoagendash II wrote:

The four brawling adventurers were low-ranking members of the Cards Mercenary company, and had identifying patches on their clothes. I want to create more things for the players to think about, and plot and story seeds I can use later if I need to.

That's pretty intresting, I usually like to read all the AP's in advance so I can make references like this to link into another AP but I won't get the chance this time round.

Going with that you said about Neil Gaiman, could be hook to use or not use in the future never thought about the use of the hooks like that.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

I’m giving players a stipend each time they level equal to the max payout they’d get over the course of a level in PFS.

Any money and equipment they seize has to be turned in to the watch, to either be returned to its rightful owner, held until the guilty party has paid the appropriate fines, or sold at auction if the owner can’t or won’t reclaim it. Item turn-in and stipend payout happen the next time they visit the precinct after leveling, so if they find a cool sword in a dungeon, they can use it for a bit before cashing it out.

I’m adding a quartermaster character (one of my characters from a recent one shot—a kobold champion of Torag) who can duplicate any item they find, and sell it to them for half-price (the idea being, the discount is paid for by the income the department makes in fines or by selling material at auction).

I’m also giving them access to some free consumables, using the base PFS list, and adding to it based on things they do in the AP.

If they need money between levels for something, I’ve told them they can ask their boss for an advance on their next paycheck, but Lavarsus at least is probably going to be pretty stingy unless they have a good reason.

I’ll see how this goes for the first couple books, and make changes as needed.

[Zapp]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

I’m giving players a stipend each time they level equal to the max payout they’d get over the course of a level in PFS.

Any money and equipment they seize has to be turned in to the watch, to either be returned to its rightful owner, held until the guilty party has paid the appropriate fines, or sold at auction if the owner can’t or won’t reclaim it. Item turn-in and stipend payout happen the next time they visit the precinct after leveling, so if they find a cool sword in a dungeon, they can use it for a bit before cashing it out.

I’m adding a quartermaster character (one of my characters from a recent one shot—a kobold champion of Torag) who can duplicate any item they find, and sell it to them for half-price (the idea being, the discount is paid for by the income the department makes in fines or by selling material at auction).

I’m also giving them access to some free consumables, using the base PFS list, and adding to it based on things they do in the AP.

If they need money between levels for something, I’ve told them they can ask their boss for an advance on their next paycheck, but Lavarsus at least is probably going to be pretty stingy unless they have a good reason.

I’ll see how this goes for the first couple books, and make changes as needed.

I sincerely recommend you use the Automatic Bonus Progression variant from the GMG to make this work.

Because D&D gold isn't realistic, and handing out salaries of thousands of gold makes no in-game sense. (The entire yearly Edgewatch police budget is likely less than 1000 gold. But you will soon have to hand this amount out to individual policemen if you run with the default Pathfinder economy)