Mechs are not supposed to take part in normal combat and instead have special mech combats.
One way to avoid that organically is to have adventures in places normal mechs can't go. The problem is that the size category of huge does not prevent that.
1. PCs can be huge normally. There are powerarmor which make you huge. By locking out huge mechs you also lock out huge powerarmors
2. You have the possibility of large characters, thus many places should allow them to function normally. This also means that mechs can squeeze into such places. They will be less effective, but still very powerful
3. Baleful Polymorph can reduce the size category of a creature. That can be used to make a mech large sized which can then function just like a large character.
Disagree. If they want mechs to have their own special combat mode and make sense, then monsters like the Kyokor, Endbringer Devil, Oma, and anything else of that scale in AA1 should have been treated the same since day one.
I mean its a fact that huge and gargantuan power armors(they exist yeah) aren't really usable by players because they can't fit their own starship with them for most parts :p That said, mechs are definitely meant to be used in "regular combat", what do you think kyokor and the cr 25 ball of death are fighting when they go up against pcs?
Also mechs aren't creatures so you can't reduce their size with baleful polymorph as weird as it is. You can reduce powered armor with spell yeah, but not mechs since they are vehicles.
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Ixal wrote: Mechs are not supposed to take part in normal combat and instead have special mech combats. That is not stated to be the intent.
Quote: 1. PCs can be huge normally. There are powerarmor which make you huge. By locking out huge mechs you also lock out huge powerarmors PCs can be gargantuan normally. There is power armour which makes you gargantuan.
Quote: 2. You have the possibility of large characters, thus many places should allow them to function normally. This also means that mechs can squeeze into such places. They will be less effective, but still very powerful and then you just get destroyed by having no mobility while the appropriately sized but still "scaled for you piloting mech" enemies take advantage of things like cover, and the ability to move properly.
Quote: 3. Baleful Polymorph can reduce the size category of a creature. That can be used to make a mech large sized which can then function just like a large character. I mean, you'd be giving yourself -2s to -5s to all your combat stats... and the gm can still balance your enemies for you being in mechs.
Milo v3 wrote:
and then you just get destroyed by having no mobility while the appropriately sized but still "scaled for you piloting mech" enemies take advantage of things like cover, and the ability to move properly.
What makes you think that enemies encountered in an area where the GM does not expect a mech to fit in will be scaled for mech combat?
Having to on the fly rescale enemies depending if the PCs manage to bring a mech or not puts a big strain on the GM.
It can also negatively affect the equipment balance as in order to fight a mech the enemy needs better weapons which the PCs can then pick up.
Ixal wrote: Milo v3 wrote:
and then you just get destroyed by having no mobility while the appropriately sized but still "scaled for you piloting mech" enemies take advantage of things like cover, and the ability to move properly.
What makes you think that enemies encountered in an area where the GM does not expect a mech to fit in will be scaled for mech combat? Ye are making bit of mistake there since you are misunderstanding one thing: Mechs use challenge rating instead of tiers like starship do.
Party with mech is considered apl + 3 challenge rating wise, but they are otherwise just normal party. So normal monsters with challenge rating of party apl +3 are considered moderate challenge to mech.
Of course whether math works is a question to test, it might be that creature would need to be cr 10 to be threat to level 4 party with mech, but rules as written are intended so you can use mechs against other mechs as well as monsters(whether big godzilla type monster or lot of smaller ones)
CorvusMask wrote: I mean its a fact that huge and gargantuan power armors(they exist yeah) aren't really usable by players because they can't fit their own starship with them for most parts :p That said, mechs are definitely meant to be used in "regular combat", what do you think kyokor and the cr 25 ball of death are fighting when they go up against pcs?
Also mechs aren't creatures so you can't reduce their size with baleful polymorph as weird as it is. You can reduce powered armor with spell yeah, but not mechs since they are vehicles.
That also means you can't damage mechs with magic missile, call cosmos or telekinetic projectile which doesn't make sense either.
Besides, the only definition of creature we have is being an active participant in the world and that would include mechs, even when they are vehicles.
Hmm nah you are wrong there. See you can shoot magic missile at objects(which vehicles are) but you can't use baleful polymorph to transform street lamp into a squox.
Though I have to admit that I'm not sure how RAW is actually regarding this issue, but that is my impression yeah.
CorvusMask wrote: Ixal wrote: Milo v3 wrote:
and then you just get destroyed by having no mobility while the appropriately sized but still "scaled for you piloting mech" enemies take advantage of things like cover, and the ability to move properly.
What makes you think that enemies encountered in an area where the GM does not expect a mech to fit in will be scaled for mech combat? Ye are making bit of mistake there since you are misunderstanding one thing: Mechs use challenge rating instead of tiers like starship do.
Party with mech is considered apl + 3 challenge rating wise, but they are otherwise just normal party. So normal monsters with challenge rating of party apl +3 are considered moderate challenge to mech. No, there is no mistake.
When the PCs manage to bring a mech into an area the GM doesn't expect them to he has to on the fly rebalance the encounter he planned in there. Or he has to always create two sets of encounters, one with and one without mechs. Or he accepts that the PCs will breeze through everything he prepared.
That means a lot more work for the GM
Umm. But you can't just buy a mech, they work like starships in that regard if rules are like that in final version as well. GM has to allow the mech in which case they know what they prepare for
CorvusMask wrote: Umm. But you can't just buy a mech, they work like starships in that regard if rules are like that in final version as well. GM has to allow the mech in which case they know what they prepare for They know to prepare a mech combat for outside the enemy base where he fully expects them to fight mech vs. mech
But they might be completely stumped that the PCs decide to squeeze in their mech into the enemy base because he has large hallways and all encounters inside the base, including the BBEG are designed for foot combat.
CorvusMask wrote: Hmm nah you are wrong there. See you can shoot magic missile at objects(which vehicles are) but you can't use baleful polymorph to transform street lamp into a squox.
Though I have to admit that I'm not sure how RAW is actually regarding this issue, but that is my impression yeah.
One of the points of a playtest is to get the RAW right so that its not up to interpretation.
And the definition of what a creature or vehicle is is a bit vague. But by the looks of it, if it can act in a meaningful way in the game and is not a starship it is a creature (which also includes robots, tanks, etc.).
This would allow Baleful Polymorph and other effects to work.
For example you could also haste a mech, but not slow one. Can slow still be used to counter haste on a mech? Unclear.
The only other category would fit are objects, but they are usually unattended and do not act on their own. Sadly some damaging spells specifically call out objects while others don't which creates a mess with which spells could damage a mech and which couldn't.
I would treat mechs as objects. They're not constructs. It is listed as vehicles. Even says so in the PDF.
So Baleful Polymorph, which only affects creatures wouldn't work. Also, line of effect is blocked by the mech. So you can't even polymorph the operator.
Also magic missiles wouldn't work either. Because you can't magic missile against objects. Only creatures.
Also, Mechs are going to adjust the encounter. Mechs are powerful. PCs that are operating mechs appropriate for their level have an Average Party Level 3 levels higher than normal.
Under Experience: Even though the PCs overcome much more powerful threats, mech encounters should provide a similar amount of
experience to other encounters for the PCs’ level. Combat encounters the PCs overcome while using mechs typically grant experience points as though the CR of each foe and other challenge were 3 lower than usual. Do not reduce the experience points earned from challenges that aren’t substantially affected by the PCs’ access to mechs, such as story awards for performing heists or overcoming encounters peacefully
Toxicsyn wrote: I would treat mechs as objects. They're not constructs. It is listed as vehicles. Even says so in the PDF.
So Baleful Polymorph, which only affects creatures wouldn't work. Also, line of effect is blocked by the mech. So you can't even polymorph the operator.
Also magic missiles wouldn't work either. Because you can't magic missile against objects. Only creatures.
You also can't use Telekinetic Strike to damage a mech by a thrown object. They are also no damaged by Call Cosmos or Wall of Fire. All of which only damage creatures. You also can't use things like Microbot Assault on them.
I also imagine that in SFS, the scenario tag will have mech in it. Just like it does with starships and vehicles. And SFS will provide a list of mechs appropriate for the tier. And there will be special challenges adjusted in the scenarios for mechs.
For Adventure Paths in home games, you're going to need to adjust encounters if you allow a PC access to a mech.
Correct! Spells that effect creatures and not objects, will not harm the mech. Because these spells also don't harm vehicles.
Toxicsyn wrote: Correct! Spells that effect creatures and not objects, will not harm the mech. Because these spells also don't harm vehicles. So in your games you can't telekinetically hurl a giant bolder at a car that follows you? And cars are completely unharmed when bombarded by "bits of burning stars and frozen comets"?
When Paizo wants to bring out a combat system for vehicles as the next big thing they need to do a much better job in defining what vehicles are and how they differ from creatures.
Currently that distinction is vague with very silly effects no matter how you rule.
Because technically, mechs currently are neither creature or objects, thus immune to basically all spells.
If you are the GM, and you rule that the PC can use their magic to hurl a giant boulder against a car that follows them... despite the fact that the spell says it can't.. you can say, I don't like that rule, sure! Throw that giant rock with your Jedi space powers.
You're the GM. Its your table and your game.
Ixal wrote: Toxicsyn wrote: Correct! Spells that effect creatures and not objects, will not harm the mech. Because these spells also don't harm vehicles. So in your games you can't telekinetically hurl a giant bolder at a car that follows you? And cars are completely unharmed when bombarded by "bits of burning stars and frozen comets"?
When Paizo wants to bring out a combat system for vehicles as the next big thing they need to do a much better job in defining what vehicles are and how they differ from creatures.
Currently that distinction is vague with very silly effects no matter how you rule. Part a: No, I'd bet in most games you can't telekinetically hurl a giant boulder at a car, because telekinetic projectile throws an item weighing no more than 5 pounds. To further this, I'd also bet that in most games, you can throw a rock at a car for the 1d6 damage if you want, because (as I mention below) its pretty silly that everything targets only creatures, and I'd hope most GMs would allow for other things to be targeted by projectile-type magices.
Part b: I agree 100%. I seriously doubt Paizo's intent was to make everything target only creatures, but currently, that's what we've got. Hopefully this playtest will show that, at the very least, there's been a decent sized failure with a fair amount of vehicle interactions.
Toxicsyn wrote: If you are the GM, and you rule that the PC can use their magic to hurl a giant boulder against a car that follows them... despite the fact that the spell says it can't.. you can say, I don't like that rule, sure! Throw that giant rock with your Jedi space powers.
You're the GM. Its your table and your game.
And when we are at the table this is a fair way to deal with ambiguity of badly written rules.
But this is a playtest and one of the jobs during that is to tell Paizo that the rules are ambiguous and that they need to clear it up.
And the role of vehicles in combat certainly needs a lot more explanation that what currently exist as vehicles basically exist outside of the system as they, technically, are neither objects or creatures which are the only two categories used during tactical combat.
I think the easiest solution would be to errata older spells now that new rules have been introduced. A blog with a web enhancement download with updated rules would fix this problem.
But I agree 100%, vehicle rules need more fleshing out.
Vehicles are explicitly stated as objects in the vehicle rules section.
Toxicsyn wrote: I think the easiest solution would be to errata older spells now that new rules have been introduced. A blog with a web enhancement download with updated rules would fix this problem.
But I agree 100%, vehicle rules need more fleshing out.
Another problem is that existing spells that can target vehicles, there are about 4-5 of them, were never made with mechs in mind.
For example, restoring HP to a mech is very difficult by the rules and requires UPB investment.
Yet the spell "Optimize Technology", one of the rare spells able to target vehicles, restores its HP to full if it regains any HP while the spell its active (and it lasts for hour/level).
The effect on XP is interesting. If your PCs manage to pull some shenanigans and use a mech where they weren't intended to, they will fall behind in level, making things harder down the line. Conversely, a party that manages to win a mech battle without a mech could wind up being greatly rewarded for it.
Third Strongest Mole wrote: The effect on XP is interesting. If your PCs manage to pull some shenanigans and use a mech where they weren't intended to, they will fall behind in level, making things harder down the line. Conversely, a party that manages to win a mech battle without a mech could wind up being greatly rewarded for it. XP is based on the enemy's CR, not the level difference between them and the PC.
Unless you're implying using a mech to defeat regular foes means those regular foes are not a significant enemy?
Garretmander wrote: Third Strongest Mole wrote: The effect on XP is interesting. If your PCs manage to pull some shenanigans and use a mech where they weren't intended to, they will fall behind in level, making things harder down the line. Conversely, a party that manages to win a mech battle without a mech could wind up being greatly rewarded for it. XP is based on the enemy's CR, not the level difference between them and the PC.
Unless you're implying using a mech to defeat regular foes means those regular foes are not a significant enemy? I can't find it at the moment, but I know I saw someone comment that when doing an encounter where the players have a mech, the encounter should be mathed out as APL+3 as a default regular encounter, but without increasing the rewards, to account for the mech being a pretty good advantage for the players.
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Page 11, under Designing Mech Encounters, Experience subsection.
Ah, found the relevant quote.
Mech experience wrote: Combat encounters
the PCs overcome while using mechs typically grant experience
points as though the CR of each foe and other challenge were 3
lower than usual.
I missed that it modifies the effective CR of the foe you're fighting for exp total.
Note the "typically", though. It implies that sometimes you *shouldn't* reduce the XP award by three tiers, presumably because the nature of the scenario meant that bringing mecha was not an easy advantage. I'd tend to rule that way if either:
1. Using the mecha in the scenario introduced as many new challenges as it solved. Say, the giant mecha meant that you effectively had to fight the *entire* military base at once, rather than in waves ( because every enemy could instantly tell where you were and often shoot at you from great distance ).
2. The ability to use the mecha in the scene was the result of the PCs overcoming challenges and making good decisions in earlier scenes. They essentially "paid" for the results earlier, and thus shouldn't be punished.
Mind, if APL +3 vs Enemy CR = not a significant encounter, I'd probably still not give any enemy XP.
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