Does standing next to a BLINDED character and stabbing them make you HIDDEN or UNOBSERVED from them?
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Hidden. You've just made where you are felt to a non-visual sense.
Honestly, unless you're using stealth to not make noise I would say you're hidden and were never unobserved unnoticed.
Edit: Unobserved is a status, there is observed, hidden, undetected, and unnoticed.
A creature that you've just stabbed would definitely know your location so you're hidden to them. On your turn you might move again and you would become undetected to them. On their turn they could use the seek action to try and find you and you would become hidden (to them) again.
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Honestly, unless you're using stealth to not make noise I would say you're hidden and were never
unobservedunnoticed.Edit: Unobserved is a status, there is observed, hidden, undetected, and unnoticed.
A creature that you've just stabbed would definitely know your location so you're hidden to them. On your turn you might move again and you would become undetected to them. On their turn they could use the seek action to try and find you and you would become hidden (to them) again.
Be careful, moving is not enough to become undetected. You need to sneak. Otherwise, hearing, as an imprecise sense, would give your position.
Be careful, moving is not enough to become undetected. You need to sneak. Otherwise, hearing, as an imprecise sense, would give your position.Honestly, unless you're using stealth to not make noise I would say you're hidden and were never
unobservedunnoticed.Edit: Unobserved is a status, there is observed, hidden, undetected, and unnoticed.
A creature that you've just stabbed would definitely know your location so you're hidden to them. On your turn you might move again and you would become undetected to them. On their turn they could use the seek action to try and find you and you would become hidden (to them) again.
Are you sure? When I read the rules here for hidden and undetected I arrive that anything that would cause the position of the opposing creature to change would move them from Hidden to Undetected.
Hidden
Source Core Rulebook pg. 466
A creature that’s hidden is only barely perceptible. You know what space a hidden creature occupies, but little else. Perhaps the creature just moved behind cover and successfully used the Hide action. Your target might be in a deep fogbank or behind a waterfall, where you can see some movement but can’t determine an exact location. Maybe you’ve been blinded or the creature is under the effects of invisibility, but you used the Seek basic action to determine its general location based on hearing alone. Regardless of the specifics, you’re flat-footed to a hidden creature.When targeting a hidden creature, before you roll to determine your effect, you must attempt a DC 11 flat check. If you fail, you don’t affect the creature, though the actions you used are still expended—as well as any spell slots, costs, and other resources. You remain flat-footed to the creature, whether you successfully target it or not.
Undetected
Source Core Rulebook pg. 466
If a creature is undetected, you don’t know what space it occupies, you’re flat-footed to it, and you can’t easily target it. [b]Using the Seek basic action can help you find an undetected creature, usually making it hidden from you instead of undetected.[b/] If a creature is undetected, that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re unaware of its presence—you might suspect an undetected creature is in the room with you, even though you’re unable to find its space. The unnoticed condition covers creatures you’re entirely unaware of.Targeting an undetected creature is difficult. If you suspect there’s a creature around, you can pick a square and attempt an attack. This works like targeting a hidden creature, but the flat check and attack roll are both rolled in secret by the GM. The GM won’t tell you why you missed—whether it was due to failing the flat check, rolling an insufficient attack roll, or choosing the wrong square. The GM might allow you to try targeting an undetected creature with some spells or other abilities in a similar fashion. Undetected creatures are subject to area effects normally.
For instance, suppose an enemy elf wizard cast invisibility and then Sneaked away. You suspect that with the elf’s Speed of 30 feet, they probably moved 15 feet toward an open door. You move up and attack a space 15 feet from where the elf started and directly on the path to the door. The GM secretly rolls an attack roll and flat check, but they know that you were not quite correct—the elf was actually in the adjacent space! The GM tells you that you missed, so you decide to make your next attack on the adjacent space, just in case. This time, it’s the right space, and the GM’s secret attack roll and flat check both succeed, so you hit!
Basically as I parse it a creature is only hidden if you used a seek action to have it be not undetected. As long as its position doesn't change I think it remains hidden, but as soon as it moves I think you have to a seek action again.
Now I could definitely be wrong, but when I read these rules that's how it comes across.
If you have other information I would definitely like to see it.
It's the first line of Sneak.
SNEAK [one-action]
MOVE SECRET
You can attempt to move to another place while becoming
or staying undetected.
The rules for Undetected also make it clear that the target has to Sneak.
Undetected
If a creature is undetected, you don’t know what space
it occupies, you’re flat-footed to it, and you can’t easily
target it. Using the Seek basic action can help you find
an undetected creature, usually making it hidden from
you instead of undetected. If a creature is undetected,
that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re unaware of its
presence—you might suspect an undetected creature is in
the room with you, even though you’re unable to find its
space. The unnoticed condition covers creatures you’re
entirely unaware of.
Targeting an undetected creature is difficult. If you
suspect there’s a creature around, you can pick a square
and attempt an attack. This works like targeting a
hidden creature, but the flat check and attack roll are
both rolled in secret by the GM. The GM won’t tell you
why you missed—whether it was due to failing the flat
check, rolling an insufficient attack roll, or choosing the
wrong square. The GM might allow you to try targeting
an undetected creature with some spells or other abilities
in a similar fashion. Undetected creatures are subject to
area effects normally.
For instance, suppose an enemy elf wizard cast
invisibility and then Sneaked away. You suspect that with
the elf’s Speed of 30 feet, they probably moved 15 feet
toward an open door. You move up and attack a space 15
feet from where the elf started and directly on the path
to the door. The GM secretly rolls an attack roll and flat
check, but they know that you were not quite correct—
the elf was actually in the adjacent space! The GM tells
you that you missed, so you decide to make your next
attack on the adjacent space, just in case. This time, it’s
the right space, and the GM’s secret attack roll and flat
check both succeed, so you hit!
It's also called out in the Invisible Condition.
Invisible
While invisible, you can’t be seen. You’re undetected to
everyone. Creatures can Seek to attempt to detect you; if
a creature succeeds at its Perception check against your
Stealth DC, you become hidden to that creature until
you Sneak to become undetected again. If you become
invisible while someone can already see you, you start
out hidden to the observer (instead of undetected) until
you successfully Sneak. You can’t become observed while
invisible except via special abilities or magic.
You can't go from Hidden to Undetected without taking an Action, like Sneak, that specifically says you do.
I mean, moving is an action, but point taken. The entru for Hidden points in one direction while the entries for Invisible and Undetected point in the other.
However I think the rules on Imprecise sense here are what really sway me.
I guess the difference here from how it affects the creatures is that to sneak the person would have to move at half speed instead of full speed, which would affect how far they can move. But you can sneak as part of the move action. Although the normal things that break sneaking would...I guess place you back at Hidden to the blind individual.
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PF2, to both simplify senses and nerf magic, made hearing an Imprecise Sense. I completely agree with Paizo on that, as in the past these kind of situations were just awful to handle. Now, it's quite simple, Invisibility is mostly the equivalent of Displacement, with the added bonus that you can sneak if you want.
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Another set of relevant rules are in the Stealth / Sneak action:Move, Secret
You can attempt to move to another place while becoming or staying undetected. Stride up to half your Speed. (You can use Sneak while Burrowing, Climbing, Flying, or Swimming instead of Striding if you have the corresponding movement type; you must move at half that Speed.)
If you’re undetected by a creature and it’s impossible for that creature to observe you (for a typical creature, this includes when you’re invisible, the observer is blinded, or you’re in darkness and the creature can’t see in darkness), for any critical failure you roll on a check to Sneak, you get a failure instead. You also continue to be undetected if you lose cover or greater cover against or are no longer concealed from such a creature.
At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by at the start of your movement. If you have cover or greater cover from the creature throughout your Stride, you gain the +2 circumstance bonus from cover (or +4 from greater cover) to your Stealth check. Because you’re moving, the bonus increase from Taking Cover doesn’t apply. You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature.
Success You’re undetected by the creature during your movement and remain undetected by the creature at the end of it.
You become observed as soon as you do anything other than Hide, Sneak, or Step. If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise. The GM might allow you to perform a particularly unobtrusive action without being noticed, possibly requiring another Stealth check. If you speak or make a deliberate loud noise, you become hidden instead of undetected.
If a creature uses Seek and you become hidden to it as a result, you must Sneak if you want to become undetected by that creature again.
Failure A telltale sound or other sign gives your position away, though you still remain unseen. You’re hidden from the creature throughout your movement and remain so.
Critical Failure You’re spotted! You’re observed by the creature throughout your movement and remain so. If you’re invisible and were hidden from the creature, instead of being observed you’re hidden throughout your movement and remain so.Now that I re-read this, I just became more confused:
- The first relevant rule only applies if your are undetected, and
- The second relevant rule only applies to Invisible creatures.
- So, if you are Hidden to a Blinded opponent and try to sneak, per RAW you could critically fail your check and somehow become observed...
Another set of relevant rules are in the Stealth / Sneak action:...Move, Secret Source Core Rulebook pg. 252
You can attempt to move to another place while becoming or staying undetected. Stride up to half your Speed. (You can use Sneak while Burrowing, Climbing, Flying, or Swimming instead of Striding if you have the corresponding movement type; you must move at half that Speed.)If you’re undetected by a creature and it’s impossible for that creature to observe you (for a typical creature, this includes when you’re invisible, the observer is blinded, or you’re in darkness and the creature can’t see in darkness), for any critical failure you roll on a check to Sneak, you get a failure instead. You also continue to be undetected if you lose cover or greater cover against or are no longer concealed from such a creature.
At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by at the start of your movement. If you have cover or greater cover from the creature throughout your Stride, you gain the +2 circumstance bonus from cover (or +4 from greater cover) to your Stealth check. Because you’re moving, the bonus increase from Taking Cover doesn’t apply. You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature.
Success You’re undetected by the creature during your movement and remain undetected by the creature at the end of it.
You become observed as soon as you do anything other than Hide, Sneak, or Step. If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise. The GM might allow you to perform a particularly
Well, you could never become observed to a blind opponent, unless they had a secondary non-visual precise sense. Since they can only detect you with an imprecise sense, the best they can ever do is have you be hidden from them.
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Re-read your first bolded section above. Vs blinded creatures if you crit fail you get a fail instead.Now that I re-read this, I just became more confused:
The first relevant rule only applies if your are undetected, and
The second relevant rule only applies to Invisible creatures.
So, if you are Hidden to a Blinded opponent and try to sneak, per RAW you could critically fail your check and somehow become observed...
My response seems to have been eaten by the site, so let's go for the double-post!
If you re-read that rule, you'll see if only applies if you are already UNDETECTED: If you are only HIDDEN and not actually INVISIBLE, you have no protection against a critical failure on a Sneak check making you OBSERVED by a Blind opponent.
Personally, I can't tell if this is somehow intentional or an error...
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I see where your confusion comes from now. Yeah that's just a typo. See the Observed condition on p. 621 for the rule @beowulf99 referred to. Best you can do with an imprecise sense, ever, is hidden.Re-read your first bolded section above. Vs blinded creatures if you crit fail you get a fail instead.Now that I re-read this, I just became more confused:
The first relevant rule only applies if your are undetected, and
The second relevant rule only applies to Invisible creatures.
So, if you are Hidden to a Blinded opponent and try to sneak, per RAW you could critically fail your check and somehow become observed...My response seems to have been eaten by the site, so let's go for the double-post!
If you re-read that rule, you'll see if only applies if you are already UNDETECTED: If you are only HIDDEN and not actually INVISIBLE, you have no protection against a critical failure on a Sneak check making you OBSERVED by a Blind opponent.
Personally, I can't tell if this is somehow intentional or an error...
It's a weird error given the 'presumably correct' version would actually be shorter as you could trim a few words out and then maybe drop the clause under 'Critical Failure' entirely:
IfI'm a bit curious if at some point either 'Undetected' used to mean 'not observed' or they intended the rules to just prevent you from dropping more than one degree of detection on a critical failure...