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I mean, duergar and derro are grey with white hair.
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If the inhuman monster has some very human attributes then it's not all that inhuman. If those attributes are associated with a group of humans often discriminated against then it's not all that long a bow to draw to say that actually, you are a racist. You might be unthinking rather than actively hostile but that doesn't make that untrue.
How would one be a racist by assigning caricatures to fictional creatures?
Let’s use an example: Orcs in my game are loud drunks who like sports too much.
Ok... Am I racist for that? Because Orgar & clan likes carousing? I can name half a dozen groups who get that same stereotype.
Clearly not. Nor would using more pernicious stereotypes, so long as they are appropriately disentangled from the real people they are assuming with.
Where world builders get into trouble is where they take a stereotype, clearly associated with a real word social group and then use their fictional creatures as a venue for players to act out violence against that veneered group.
If it’s because the orcs are just Americans or Arabs or Aleuts with greenskin, and so now you get to kill them, then that’s terrible and lazy. But if my orcs eat seals, watch reality tv, and live in deserts ... AND ... they STOLE THE TALON OF LIFE... well, yeah. Go get‘em.
Not because of the seals, or the deserts, or the poor choice in cable programming, but because they did something wrong.
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I think the important thing is that the set of "things you can kill just because of what they are" should be as small as possible.
It is never hard to give a reason that you can kill these humans, orcs, whatever because of what they're up to. Some totally alien outsider or whatever can conceivably be "kill it because it's a qlippoth or something" but nothing you can identify as "a person" should be.
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"We can kill those people because of who they are" is a dangerous idea to be smuggling into reality by way of fantasy games.
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"We can kill those people because of who they are" is a dangerous idea to be smuggling into reality by way of fantasy games.
That would be the disconnect. You have the vast majority of Orcs depicted as the aggressor. They kill burn pillage. You kill them because it's a matter of survival and not really morality. They just happen to also be evil because they're genociding you.
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"We can kill those people because of who they are" is a dangerous idea to be smuggling into reality by way of fantasy games.That would be the disconnect. You have the vast majority of Orcs depicted as the aggressor. They kill burn pillage. You kill them because it's a matter of survival and not really morality. They just happen to also be evil because they're genociding you.If you kill the Orcs who are attacking, just like you'd kill humans who were attacking, then there's no problem.
It's when these particular Orcs aren't attacking anyone, but we've decided that's what Orcs do, so we're going to slaughter them anyway, that we have a problem. And it gets worse if we saddle the Orcs with traits linked to real world races or cultures that have historically been othered and treated as the enemy.
Either the Orcs are monsters or the Orcs are just retextured humans. Since both depictions exist simultaneously, we get people confusing the two.
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Is there any such thing as a possible negative trait for a race/species to have that has not at some time been attached to some real world race or ethnic group? Seems like it’s a rabbit hole it’s really easy to go way too deep down.
I feel like a lot of people are missing some of the more nuanced issues, here.
Cultural appropriation isn't just portraying a culture in a negative, offensive or overtly racist manner.
Say you build a world. You decide there's going to be an area similar to China, Mongolia and Japan. Feudal system, honorable warrior codes, martial arts. They're mostly Lawful Good and will be the primary force holding the demonic forces of the next world at bay.
... but it's STILL a harmful, offensive situation you've created, if you misrepresent the cultures you're borrowing from, don't acknowledge your sources and end up spreading misinformation about the real peoples involved.
I have just recently learned, for example, that my understanding of the samurai's code of honor was grossly misinformed (by movies, comics, games, etc.). My preconceived notions weren't negative--they were honestly more moral and pure than the apparent truth-- but they were romanticized and false.
And that's not inherently bad. But if I go talking about bushido and sepukku assuming what I know is fact, I inadvertently spread misinformation about this people I think I'm celebrating. I obfuscate their culture.
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Unless the DMs has the merchants portrayed as stereotypes I also will not assume the worst. Once and if the NPC comes off as a stereotype and caricature will I point it out to the DM.
I feel that some in the hobby assume the worst. My first thought at seeing a merchant as a player in someone else campaign is to see what he is selling and if interested buy something. Not "well I hope the NPC is not going to be a mixture of racist stereotypes". If I see a player as a DM engaging in that behavior I ask him to stop or they can find another table. If as a player it is something that keeps coming up I leave and find another table.
We are there to have fun as a group. Not spend all our time worrying if someone is going to be offended by something. We make sure not to say something offensive or racist beyond that we game end of story.
Unless I am unwell or suffering a brain injury I pretty much do not say racist things and when I do I realize it. We are not animals who behave on instinct. So I just find that saying that people are racist without realizing it seems another way imo to claim that everything and anything is racist.
If I have Jewish player in my group the merchant NPCs are not going to be any form of racist stereotype or caricature. No matter what anyone at the table says. One can stop oneself from being racist.
It was how some on this forum complained that Paizo was releasing new material and claiming they had no choice but to buy the new material. We have a choice and a will to not buy every new sourcebook just as we have the same for not being racist. so it's not so much not realizing about something being racist so much as not caring and saying something that can and will be racist.
That kind of person just like the person seeing racism in everything and anything are not welcome at my tables.
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My own past/culture... that's an interesting concept in and of itself. I'm a white American, so...I don't really know if I have a culture, in any meaningful sense.
I just wanted to respond to this because, despite the fact that you said you wanted to set it aside, it seems central to developing a harm-reductive philosophy. We do have a culture. We have a specific accent and word choice, we dress in a certain way, and we have certain social expectations as a result of our identity. Our people have a history which is taught and celebrated in schools, and we are assumed to be able to trace our lineage back to Europe. We have taste in music, food, movies, literature, and games that is influenced by our identity. We have the privilege of not even perceiving our own culture, because we are not used to having other people perceive it.
Our own culture influences the games we play. I'm not talking about King Arthur and his knights, who are distant and remote to us, I'm talking about J.R.R. Tolkien, J.K. Rowling, Bruce Willis, Clint Eastwood, and Richard Nixon. I'm talking about Game of Thrones and Chinese Restaurants, oriental rugs and rap music. 9 to 5 jobs and big, empty houses, college campuses and national monuments. We are who we are, and we aren't just anybody.
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...I just find that saying that people are racist without realizing it seems another way imo to claim that everything and anything is racist.
I have heard people use racial slurs without realizing that they were racial slurs; they just thought the term was a general insult and used it playfully and without malice.
I don't think that guy was racist. But what he did in that moment was part of the problem that is racism. When he was informed as to what those terms actually mean, he apologized profusely and avoided using those terms in the future.| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
If someone wants to live their life both in gaming and outside of it seeing racism with everything and anything and assuming that everyone and anyone is racist more power to them it's not a lifestyle I will ever embrace or encourage.
My first thought out of bed is not going to be "man I am racist I may not realize it, I may not even be racist yet it's something I need to work on". I live my life by being the best person I can and respectful of other culture and races. Other than I am not going to examine each and every part of my life in terms of race or racism. That way leads to insanity.
If I do or say something racism in game or in real life call me out on it. Beyond that I don't waste a nanosecond on it. Life has it's own issues and I need to focus on more than just racism.
It is just really confusing point of view for myself at least. People are not inherently racist yet at the same thing being told the opposite because people are and they don't realize it.
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...I just find that saying that people are racist without realizing it seems another way imo to claim that everything and anything is racist.I have heard people use racial slurs without realizing that they were racial slurs; they just thought the term was a general insult and used it playfully and without malice.
I don't think that guy was racist. But what he did in that moment was part of the problem that is racism. When he was informed as to what those terms actually mean, he apologized profusely and avoided using those terms in the future.
Similar to people tossing out "g-y" and "r-tarded" for generic derogation, often intended humorously. I doubt most people doing this have any malicious intent toward sexual minorities or the developmentally disabled, and yet, as we know, using that language can be deeply hurtful.