Getting burned out, maybe you can help.

[Tiaximus]

For the last... twenty years or so (since the middle of high school), I have been the DM for about 75% of the games I've been in. I like the role, I like trying to challenge players, I like making fun stories.

I just don't enjoy being a DM any more.

To preface, we don't have a lot of people who have either the confidence or time to run an adventure. One has a lot of anxiety, two have time-consuming jobs and personal lives, and the last isn't feeling it (I understand that and sympathize).

Most of the games I run end up with players doing really... strange things. Making wildly inappropriate tactical blunders (you ran in the MIDDLE of the people fighting each other?), ignoring clues (yes, the burning golem is IN FACT immune to fire), or stopping flat dead in their tracks and staring at each other. Actually that last one is the primary source of aggravation.

I absolutely understand that the problem could be me and my expectations. In fact, I think it has to be.

When I play in games with these people, the games are a blast. We destroy enemies above our level, figure out puzzles halfway through, and continually make forward movement. I am not necessarily the reason for this--I almost always play support. I want the fighter to be the fighter, I want the rogue to be the rogue, etc.

But when I DM, I almost feel like I have to run the NPCs as the actual heroes or nothing gets done, and that just feels... cheap. I'm here to tell you a story about your heroes, not have to tag along on the NPC's heels...

Any thoughts on things I can work on, bad habits I might not be aware of, or ways to improve my DM style? I may not have given you a lot to work with, but I'm happy to answer questions.

I just want it to be fun to DM again.

[Zotpox]

Play as a player in a group of all DM's, and be prepared to embrace the weird.

[avr]

These are guesses. I've never seen you or your friends and I could be way off.

Slow down when you give your descriptions perhaps? If you're rattling these off quickly people might miss that the golem's on fire already.

Kibbitz a little when it sounds like one or more of the players are barking up the wrong tree.

Maybe your players are just too tired and you need to shorten the game session or move it to a different week day/time.

If PF tactics is not the strong point of some players it might be time to switch to a different RPG which has less emphasis on tactics.

[Meirril]

Try running something different than you're usual style. Give the players more freedom than they are use to, or less. Maybe have the 'enemy' come after the PCs rather than having the PCs trying to ruin their plot for once?

Like you could have chapter 1 be your typical "Destroy goblin raiders with a side of bandits." Turns out the bandits recently took down a messenger that was carrying a useful piece of adventuring gear that someone in the group will use. And that piece of gear has a non-magical map and note tucked in it.

The map and the code on the note don't make any sense yet. You need a point of reference to make the map valuable, and you need a key to decipher the code on the note. A 20 Linguistics check lets you know its a code that needs some sort of cipher to decode it.

A few days later and thugs start showing up to knock everybody unconscious and strip them of their gear. The thugs don't know why, but they know who hired them and where they are suppose to drop off the adventurer's magic gear. It could just be the piece of gear that has the message hidden in it.

Then further escalation with chances to catch people that have the cipher in their possession. Maybe do a chase sequence with the BBG (the end boss) riding an Ancient Green Dragon spewing clouds of poison gas into the forest attempting to flush out the PCs. (so, your all 5th level, some guy in what appears to be demonic armor riding a green dragon the size of the inn you stayed in last night is flying around looking for you. Anyone think they can take him?)

Eventually figure out what the BBG is after. Slowly confront and/or destroy his organization. Get strong enough and finally face down the mastermind that has been hounding them the entire time.

[Mark Hoover 330]

So, are your players the same ones you've had for 20 years? Is this a pattern of behavior with them, or is it new? I'm trying to understand; have you been ok with this behavior for a long time and its now just starting to get to you, or is this a recent playstyle change from your players?

I ask because maybe there's some personal issues at play here. Like, if these players have always been ok grinding through games and stories and suddenly they're diving into melee without strategy, maybe they're dealing with fears about kids schools, challenging jobs, and other private situations and they're just blowing off steam.

On the other hand, if your players have always been like this and it's just now getting to you, what's happening with you? Are you ok? You don't need to actually answer me on this public forum or anywhere for that matter, these are just some things to think about.

As for GM burnout it's very real. Everyone goes through it. Running these games is tough and gets tougher the higher expectations we put on ourselves.

I had 2 epic D&D 1e Campaigns, one in HS and one in college. Ever since I'd been trying to recreate that level of excitement and pathos, trying to recapture those "glory days" until I burned out a couple years ago. It finally hit me that the main reason those games were so good is because we were kids; the game was fresh and new-ish to all of us.

I'm currently running 3 games and the players in said games are my age or older. They've played dozens of different TTRPG systems. Most of them are also expert gamers in general playing video games, board games, and chewing through crossword puzzles like so much popcorn. In short, there's not a lot I can throw on the table to get those old, high-school/college level reactions.

My burnout hit the opposite way of yours. I'd put fights out there, tough ones (I thought) and my players would demolish them and yawn. Puzzles were a joke; as I was describing the setup my players were already gaming out the solutions.

I told my players at the time I was hitting a wall. One of them was kind enough to give us an AP to play. It was her first time running anything and she basically read off portions of the AP to us, we'd have fights, and then poof, we were off to the next boxed text.

My GM hackles went up. I started striking up conversations in character, sometimes even with our more sentient, intelligent villains. I was trying to force some story development from this preset, railroady AP. The new GM running it was flabbergasted and I later apologized for needling her and slowing down the game.

Something happened though. My other players kind of "woke up." They realized that the one thing they appreciated about my games was all of the world building: clever NPC interactions, plots that changed with their input, unique items and environments that in turn served as clues to the larger stories.

So my burnout came from not feeling like I was challenging them, but it turned out I was looking in the wrong direction. Fights weren't challenging my players because of system mastery, but the story elements were what kept them at the table in the first place. I'd lost sight of that.

I guess my advice out of all that would be talk to your players and see if, even though they might not want to, they'd be willing to give you a break from running something for a while. Get to know them now, as people, as players, and do some critical thinking about what gets them to the table, as well as yourself.

[Tiaximus]

Zotpox wrote:

Play as a player in a group of all DM's, and be prepared to embrace the weird.

Sounds magical. <3

avr wrote:

These are guesses. I've never seen you or your friends and I could be way off...

Hmm, could be giving too information much at once. Hadn't thought of that.

Many times I will suggest that what they are doing is a little odd, trying to hint that they might be going in the wrong direction or doing something that could cause problems, but perhaps I haven't been as obvious or straightforward about it.

We have actually switched to board games on occasion and that worked out alright. Not wonderful, but alright. I'm wondering if the limitations on what you can and can't do helped keep things going then.

Would like to move the game, but we don't have a lot of choices on timing. That is unfortunately something we will have to deal with (at least one player is just getting off work), but will definitely keep that in mind if we ever get a chance to switch.

We actually haven't played a lot of other RPGs other than WoTC D&D (up to 3.5) and Pathfinder. It has been hard to get other RPGs in the spotlight as most of the players just prefer Pathfinder, but will give it a chance too. Any ideas of other games that might have less emphasis on tactics?

Meirril wrote:

Try running something different than you're usual style. Give the players more freedom than they are use to, or less. Maybe have the 'enemy' come after the PCs rather than having the PCs trying to ruin their plot for once? ...

That sounds like something right up my alley to play, and lemme complement you on a really engaging idea.

I am wary of these kinds of plots for my group because a couple of them are not generally capable of thinking outside of the moment. They can’t easily piece together that, “maybe something is happening that isn’t blatantly obvious,” and it frustrates them. They get upset if they aren’t brought quick clues, even if they don’t recognize the quick clues. I like to write down things I don’t understand or make a note for later, but I rarely can get them to put pencil to paper. Maybe we need something less time-consuming and more instant-gratification (I try to offer board games), but they still want to play Pathfinder.

I joke with one of my friends about running the “Ultimate Dungeon.” It’s just a completely made-up, on-the-spot, whatever-I-feel-like where every single Perception check for traps results in a trap, every monster is sitting on a chest full of money, and the big-bad-guys come by and call time-outs for people to rest in the weirdest places. I know it’s condescending, but it’s how it feels sometimes.

I have run several games where I give them some pretty amazing, world/rule changing powers, and they rarely use them. It’s mind-boggling to me. It’s like, “Cool, I’ll put this in my backpack” and their backpack is basically a figurative bag of devouring. I have literally put a chest of obvious water breathing potions in one room and filled the next with water and they still had people drowning.

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

So, are your players the same ones you've had for 20 years? Is this a pattern of behavior with them, or is it new? I'm trying to understand; have you been ok with this behavior for a long time and its now just starting to get to you, or is this a recent playstyle change from your players? …

Many of the behaviors that cause stress have been long-standing issues. I have played with all of the current players over… more than ten years as far as I can remember. The games usually start off fine, but eventually they hit some sort of wall where the players either stop making forward motion (boredom?) or more likely some sort of personal issue keeps us apart for long enough to want to start something else. My main issue is that I just don’t enjoy it anymore. I can just push out another couple hours of (what I consider) bland content but I want it to be fun for everyone.

I absolutely love your connection with personal issues and blowing off steam—I can usually tell when they are having some problems and then I throw a bunch of easy fights and try to make them feel like a hero… but then somehow it still turns around to be more stressful. Some days the stress is a fight we can’t win, and we probably shouldn’t be playing those days—better communication would help.

For myself, I have always wanted it to be about having fun and don’t feel like I have succeeded if we don’t. It does really hit hard when we have a bad session, and I take it personally most days because I feel responsible for everyone’s fun. It may be that I just need somewhere to blow off steam, too. This helps, for sure. Thanks for asking, my players hardly ever ask if I have had fun.

One of the best games I ever ran, I ran half-drunk pretty much every time we played. Would be fun, sure, but that’s not quite healthy for me these days.

I loved the story about your players getting to know you better. That was amazing, and I’m glad you shared that with me.

You’re absolutely right about getting to know the players better. There have been many times we have sat down and I have flat-out asked, “what is fun about this for you? What do you want to do? What is the best part about playing Pathfinder?” Here are the cliff-notes of the people I’m playing with:

‘Bob’ just wants to play. Anything that we play, he is usually happy with. He doesn’t speak up enough and always chides himself over it later. His characters are usually made with high-level abilities in mind instead of character-building and personal goals. ‘Bob’ tends to cater to others, second-guess himself, rarely taking up the ‘leader’ position but typically playing characters in the front row. As a person, he states he has high Int and low Wis as a self-deprecating joke, but it sometimes fits. Very smart, not overly perceptive. ‘Bob’ loves any type of game (rarely has any preference) and prefers playing (but DMs rarely).

‘Fred’ also just wants to play, but ‘Fred’ tells me his absolute favorite games are the ones I have ran. ‘Fred’ is a dedicated cleric and loves the healer role. ‘Fred’ used to be very outspoken and engaged with party decisions, but at some point a couple years ago, he lost that. He thinks he annoys the other players by voicing his opinions and I feel like I lost a very, very good party voice. ‘Fred’ alternates between being engaged and completely clamming up nowadays, and it may have to do with people close to them passing away in the last few years affecting their confidence. ‘Fred’ loves any type of game (rarely has any preference) and was DM once—was a lot of fun, but it takes a lot of time and effort for ‘Fred’ to get into the game, more than his personal life allots.

‘Jim’ is very charismatic as a person and sometimes a slight bully, but keeps it to an acceptable level (he is easy to call out and quick to correct himself). We played together many years ago and we are getting back into it recently (just this last session actually). Out of the entire group, I think he will be the easiest to engage and keep involved. Technically new blood to the group, in a way, but everyone has played with everyone else at some point. ‘Jim’ has run games before and they are definitely different from any I’ve played, but like the others he has no real preference.

‘Sam’ is a mixed bag. ‘Sam’ will start a game off in a great mood and be bored ten minutes in. I have yet to figure out what ‘Sam’ likes or, honestly, why ‘Sam’ wants to play. ‘Sam’ deals with a great amount of anxiety in everyday life but is also very outspoken. ‘Sam’ disengages at the drop of a hat, but I can’t figure out why. I’ve asked, I’ve watched, I’ve written down experiences to compare but I just don’t see any common thing that causes ’Sam’ to disengage. I have had to veto playing the Switch at the table because, if ’Sam’ has the Switch present, he flips it on almost immediately when we start. ‘Sam’ has voiced that he likes dungeon crawls, dislikes having more than one role-play encounter per game, and prefers one-shot adventures to campaigns (though the one-shot that ‘Sam’ states he liked had a lot of different modules tied together… or as I call it, a campaign).

I may just be needing to blow off steam really. Don’t know yet. We recently got together to start a new game after several months apart. I had hoped to see them engage, but by the end of the first session I felt the same disappointment I was used to. Our next session is this Tuesday—if anyone wants to hear how it goes, I will post an update.

Thanks to everyone, for all the advice, and thanks for listening to me.

[Steve Geddes]

I've been the primary DM of our group for years as well.

For me, the best way to break myself out of a rut is to play a different system altogether, or a one-shot from an entirely different genre, or a game of "you're all rogues" or....whatever. Something gimmicky and out there.

I like to do that for a month or two, then go back to an AP or a "serious" long-term campaign and it generally recharges my batteries.

[Scavion]

Steve Geddes wrote:

I've been the primary DM of our group for years as well.

For me, the best way to break myself out of a rut is to play a different system altogether, or a one-shot from an entirely different genre, or a game of "you're all rogues" or....whatever. Something gimmicky and out there.

I like to do that for a month or two, then go back to an AP or a "serious" long-term campaign and it generally recharges my batteries.

This is great advice. If prepwork, brainstorming and designing adventures is part of the strain, I recommend trying to run a module or AP. My group typically plays FFD6 as a palate cleanser and we'll probably give 5e Spheres of Power a try when they release.

[avr]

Savage Worlds is an easy game to get into if you look at a change from PF. Not a lot of tactical depth but it supports making interesting characters & has loads of support for oddball settings. Don't look to run a multi-year campaign in it, but it works for months at a time. Prep is easy.

My own 'Sam' is pretty good at running a dungeon crawl game when we need a break, but I don't have good answers for how to deal with him as a player, sorry. Definitely a personality type I've seen though.

[dunelord3001]

Dragons.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Taximus Maximus: I might be reading into and overanalyzing what you mentioned about your friends way too much here, but it sounds like "Bob" and "Fred" are just thrilled to be players in your games, but they also sound like they are so willing to do anything they're rather passive.

In other words they just want to be entertained.

Another thing that can contribute heavily in GM Burnout is the burden we take on ourselves to provide content. Nearly everyone on this forum notes that PF 1e, and really most TTRPGs are cooperative, collaborative games - players and GM all contributing to a fun game. Unfortunately in practice there are many players who feel their only real onus is to show up with a character.

That attitude, while initially helpful and willing, quickly devolves into the players being passive, almost like an audience tuning into their favorite show and occasionally yelling and throwing stuff at the screen during fight scenes. That ALSO puts all of the pressure on the GM to be showrunner, actors, director, and so on.

Now the TV thing isn't a perfect analogy but hopefully you get my point. As Aunt May once said to Peter in the first Raimi Spider Man: "You do too much! You're not Superman y'know!"

So T-dawg, maybe part of your burnout is from feeling like you have to provide some special event to your players every session. Their happiness and entertainment is not your responsibility though. When you just hang out with a group of friends with no agenda, do you only consider the night a success if they all had a great time? Or if you throw a party, are you a failure if your guests aren't blown away by the event?

Your job as a GM is to put encounters out there, conflicts for the PCs to resolve, and to then have the world around the characters react, delivering either rewards, consequences or both to your players as a result of their decisions.

That's it.

You're not in charge of their emotions, and your success or worth doesn't depend on how your players feel afterwards. If you've delivered all of the above and your players are bored, that's a them problem, not a you problem. If, however, you fell down in one of these areas, then we can talk.

[Stephen Ede]

Alternate systems is one idea that someone suggested that I would second.

Something to clear the palates fo both players and GMs.

Also Modules are great for the people who don't have the time to GM.

A pathfinder Module with 15-20 pt buildand no pure caster build (Classes that get 9th lev spells).

These can be run by someone with minimal out of game time by the GM.
Let you play for a bit and someone else GM.

I know as a player of nearly 40 years I love random Stat generation and systems that give random mutations or other abilities and those "roll dice to give character background" wonderful for giving me ideas for my character.
Give me a frame work and I can come up with a character to fit it. But I hate point build in part because I have to decide what the hell my character is before I buy stats. :-(