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Does a player get to choose to use a hero point before I know the results or after I know the results. I am really looking for a Organized Play response because nowhere in the Core does it say you are required to choose before you know the results. It does say you can re-roll a failed result, which should assume that you have to know it is failed before you choose.
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To my understanding, there is no PFS rule changing what's in the CRB. Fortune effects specifically allow you to reroll a failed check. I don't think you necessarily know the degree to which you failed, though.
In practice (from what I've personally seen at our tables), most players know they failed something without needing to be told and use their HP accordingly (e.g. "I rolled a 1" or "The 23 to hit last round missed; I will use my Hero Point to reroll this attack as that was just a 17"). So it really hasn't come up much.
For secret checks the rules on 450 apply; "if you know that the GM is attempting a secret check—as often happens with Recall Knowledge or Seek—you can usually activate fortune or misfortune abilities for that check. Just tell the GM, and they’ll apply the ability to the check." I always let players know when I'm making secret checks and expect them to tell me they want to use a HP if they fail.
Again, this hasn't really come up as players tend not to value knowledge checks highly enough to use a hero point on… or players with feats like Dubious Knowledge simply relish in the chaos sewn by their failure.
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Doug, can you site this please?
Page reference, etc.
Because that is not what I read in fortune trait
And hero points, which have the fortune trait on their effect, allow you to reroll a check.
I have been looking for this sort of ruling for a year.
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Doug, can you site this please?
Page reference, etc.
Because that is not what I read in fortune trait
And hero points, which have the fortune trait on their effect, allow you to reroll a check.
I have been looking for this sort of ruling for a year.
"Fortune and misfortune effects can alter how you roll your dice. These abilities might allow you to reroll a failed roll, force you to reroll a successful roll, allow you to roll twice and use the higher result, or force you to roll twice and use the lower result."
— Page 449; AON
A fortune effect should generally allow you to retroactively roll again on a check that has already failed.
Maybe Hero Points are following another subset of the fortune effect rules, or these general rules should not apply to Hero Points, but I have not been able to find anything specific that overrides these general rules, or say that the player shouldn't know a check failed when it’s not Secret.
I will say this definitely feels wrong to me coming from 1e where you are generally never allowed to use a reroll before knowing the results unless the ability specifies otherwise, and my personal preference would be that 2e players do not know. But like I said it hasn’t become a huge issue so far.
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It’s definitely come up at tables I’ve been at, though I was assuming until now that it worked like 1E. The issue is that using a hero point might cause you to fail a roll that you would have otherwise succeeded at. I’ve got several skills across my characters that are at a relatively low bonus. Trained+level with no stat bonus. Every time I roll a 10+bonus on what seems like it might be an important roll, I have to think about whether I should use a hero point or not. 14 at 2nd level sounds like it should fail most rolls, but there are several it would pass. Especially if it’s a lore skill. And you’re almost as likely to roll worse and turn a success into a fail. If I’m supposed to know whether or not that 14 would fail before I decide to throw a hero point out, that would make a huge difference.
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Thank you Doug for your response.
To respond to a statement, it has mattered for me at a table. The thing is, I did not question it at the table because I 'try' not to GM tables I am not the GM and I can confirm that I do not know 100% of the rules in and out. This did not really bother me until this came up in a Starfinder game and I started to think to myself on what the official rule was in Pathfinder2, so I looked up Hero Points and Fortune effect and there was no statement to indicate that you need to choose before you know the results. It could be that even though it has come up, a player will not question it at a table for fear of not fully understanding the rules or just plain respect for the GM.
The problem is that Online Play is infested with the Idea that you do not get to know the results before you choose to use a Hero Point. Since it is the consensus for Organized Play Online, it would literally take a response for a Developer or an Official Organized Play Lead to change the opinions.
I want things to be correct and feel that Players should not have their decision handicapped. I am not even trying to change the rule, I just want a clear answer. I believe that 10+ years of doing it one way in PF1 has bled into PF2 GM memories.
This is why I am seeking an official response.
Thank you
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I don't think those citations are really definite enough.
Fortune and misfortune effects can alter how you roll your dice. These abilities might allow you to reroll a failed roll, force you to reroll a successful roll, allow you to roll twice and use the higher result, or force you to roll twice and use the lower result.
This is really generic. It doesn't tell us how a particular fortune effect will work, it just outlines what sort of things fortune effects might possibly do. It's basically just introductory text setting the stage for the next paragraph that discusses how to deal with multiple and secret fortune effects.
Spend 1 Hero Point to reroll a check. You must use the second result. This is a fortune effect (which means you can’t use more than 1 Hero Point on a check).
This isn't that specific either. Doesn't say whether the rerolling happens before or after results are known. Maybe if we hunt through the book for other reroll effects we can get a clue?
Trigger You fail a skill check or saving throw.
Effect: Your happy-go-lucky nature makes it seem like misfortune avoids you, and to an extent, that might even be true. You can reroll the triggering check, but you must use the new result, even if it’s worse than your first roll.
Trigger You fail or critically fail an attack roll or Will save.
You burn out all of your rage to ensure that your attack lands and your mind remains free. Reroll the triggering attack roll or Will save with a +2 circumstance bonus, use the better result, and resolve the effect. You then immediately stop raging.
Trigger An enemy’s attack hits you or you fail a saving throw against an enemy’s ability.
Requirements You are not armored or fatigued.
You execute a maneuver that defies possibility. If the triggering effect was an enemy’s attack hitting you, the enemy rerolls the attack roll and uses the lower result. If the triggering effect was you failing a saving throw, you reroll the saving throw and use the higher result.
Trigger The attack roll for a Strike targeting you fails or critically fails.
You deftly step out of the way of an attack, letting the blow continue to the creature next to you. You redirect the attack to a creature of your choice that is adjacent to you and within the reach of the triggering attack. The attacker rerolls the Strike’s attack roll against the new target
Trigger You fail (but don’t critically fail) a saving throw.
Reroll the saving throw and use the better result. You then become temporarily immune for 10 minutes.
Trigger You fail a saving throw against a morph, petrification, or polymorph effect.
Reroll the saving throw and use the better result.
Trigger You are hit or critically hit with an attack, but damage hasn’t been rolled yet;
Effect You force the attacker to reroll the attack roll and use the worse result. This effect has the misfortune trait
Trigger You miss on a Strike with the luck blade;
Effect Reroll the triggering attack roll and use the new result. This is a fortune effect
Trigger You fail a saving throw against an effect that makes you confused, fascinated, or stupefied;
Effect The headband of inspired wisdom clears your mind. You can reroll the saving throw and use the better result.
There were a few more uses of the word "reroll" such as "roll again on this table and use both results" but those are irrelevant. The pattern as a whole is that every reroll ability in the CRB is done after the result of the original roll is known.
If hero points were supposed to be different from that, it should have been called out explicitly. (This is not the outcome I was expecting.)
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Thank you, Lau.
As always, your analysis was extraordinary.
Until Paizo Con, I hadn’t questioned that hero point rerolls work like they did with promotional boons from PFS1 or SFS. Someone called me out (I cannot recall who), and I decided to go with it, since the text wasn’t clear to me.
This is still, unfortunately, not completely solid evidence, and I would love for the PF2 design team to weigh in.
Venture-Captain, Texas—Austin
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I do agree with Lau that hero points can be used after knowing the results. I do wish they were clarified to be "use before you roll, but roll twice and take the better". I find that half the time hero point rerolls go down instead of up, disappointing my players, including too many times of a 2 becoming a 1.
Alternatively, my totally OP wish would be that hero points are a fortune effect that increases the degree of success by one step of a roll. Turning a hit into a crit, or a miss into a hit in a desperate fight, avoiding a crit fail on a crucial diplomacy check feels much more like a heroic surge than than Turing a 2 into a 5
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As far as I understand it the Secret trait is what hides the result of a check and Hero Points don't have that (nor do most other rerolls, as Lau demonstrated). That's the elegance and frustration of the trait system.
The issue probably should be coming up a bit more in some of my own games, especially play-by-post where rerolling and timeliness can become problematic. I didn't mean to sound dismissive about the problem here — it's a worthwhile topic! I'm just lucky it hasn't come up a lot or in an important way… yet (e.g. killing a PC). But it will.
All told, players knowing the result isn't my personal preference as a player or as a GM but I run it that way in Society games (not at home game); a developer confirming would still be welcome.
Alternatively, my totally OP wish would be that hero points are a fortune effect that increases the degree of success by one step of a roll. Turning a hit into a crit, or a miss into a hit in a desperate fight, avoiding a crit fail on a crucial diplomacy check feels much more like a heroic surge than than Turing a 2 into a 5
If you aren't playing PFS, work with your GM. I think paying 2 hero points for such an effect would be okay, and I intend to offer that option on my tables from now on. Thanks for the idea.
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This got a dev response on discord by Mark Seifter on the Arcane Mark discord sever. Wanted to put it here in case anyone finds this thread in the future.
We removed all those annoying "Use it before the results are announced" effects because they give no benefit but can just be frustrating or much more powerful for those with metagame knowledge
Here's the reference link. I hope that link works OK
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Yes, dev's speaking in their unofficial capacity outside of official errata/statements are not official ruling, and I shouldn't have called it a ruling. However it felt like the consensus that had emerged, w/o dev statement was that hero points were NOT 'use before knowing result'.
However...
Dev's will typically answer if the questions is not a 'ruling' (which implies the original rules left multiple interpretations), but instead can be answered by quoting the rules. In this case I take Mark as doing the latter, calling out the that the absence of the text was intentional, and the rule is as written, without the implied 1e spin people had been reading into it.
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but can just be … much more powerful for those with metagame knowledge
This is especially true in 2E where DCs and modifiers are much tighter. When I'm lucky enough to play something before running it I can reliably figure out the DCs: they're such a tight range and so closely tied to level. If you think about it, there isn't as much value in obfuscating DCs in this system.
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Design Manager
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Yes, dev's speaking in their unofficial capacity outside of official errata/statements are not official ruling, and I shouldn't have called it a ruling. However it felt like the consensus that had emerged, w/o dev statement was that hero points were NOT 'use before knowing result'.
However...
Dev's will typically answer if the questions is not a 'ruling' (which implies the original rules left multiple interpretations), but instead can be answered by quoting the rules. In this case I take Mark as doing the latter, calling out the that the absence of the text was intentional, and the rule is as written, without the implied 1e spin people had been reading into it.
Yes, nothing I say should be construed as an official ruling on an ambiguous piece of text, but I'm happy to point out when a certain rule that we all remember from PF1 just isn't in the game any more. I always check first because I can easily be wrong. Just today I thought we still had the extraplanar trait but didn't print it on monsters because you never know if they're encountered on their home plane, but I was happy to discover we got rid of it completely and just say, for instance, you can banish something "that isn't on its home plane" like I had wanted. I just totally spaced that we had executed on that change.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Oregon—Portland
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You got rid of extraplanar but left a reference to it in Shillelagh.
It sounds like the extraplanar trait on monsters is gone, because those creatures are only extraplanar when encountered on a plane other than their own.
The concept of extraplanar creatures still exists. If something is from another plane, the language in Shillelagh still applies.
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This got a dev response on discord by Mark Seifter on the Arcane Mark discord sever. Wanted to put it here in case anyone finds this thread in the future.
We removed all those annoying "Use it before the results are announced" effects because they give no benefit but can just be frustrating or much more powerful for those with metagame knowledgeHere's the reference link. I hope that link works OK
So that leave nimble dodge as the exception of doing before the result
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Nimble Dodge is before the roll. It's also not the only ability with that restriction.
Trigger A creature targets you with an attack and you can see the attacker.
Trigger You are targeted with a melee attack by an attacker you can see.
Though there don't seem to be many. But contrast that with:
Trigger You would be hit by an attack or targeted by an effect, or you are within an effect’s area.
If there's no difference between when you're targeted and when you're hit, then why the different language in the triggers?
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...why the different language in the triggers?
In 1E I would say it because they wanted the text to be a bit more dynamic to read so they would intentionally use different words/language when describing similar effects, especially if they were nearby in the book.
For 2E however, it is supposed to be more "text-booky" with a reduced emphasis on readability vs. precision. Whether or not that applies to the differences seen here is unknown (until/unless a designer comments anyway). It could be they just didn't want to copy/paste identical language time after time. Or it could be an intentional difference to indicate that some things they want to allow post-result usage vs pre-result declaration.
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There shouldn't be any variance here.
The rules don't require you to re-roll before you know.
We have unofficial confirmation that that's the intent.
There shouldn't be any variation here. The rule is clear, the intent is clear and remarkably they are in sync.
The consensus is: you get to know the result before you roll, but it's easy to think otherwise because there's 10 years of previous edition that says otherwise.
Contributor
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Something interesting that comes up with Hero Points (that I sometimes forget) is that rolls with the "Secret" trait might not benefit from them, depending on the circumstances:
If you don’t know a secret check is happening (for instance, if the GM rolls a secret Fortitude save against a poison that you failed to notice), you can’t use any fortune or misfortune abilities (see the sidebar on page 449) on that check, but if a fortune or misfortune effect would apply automatically, the GM applies it to the secret check. If you know that the GM is attempting a secret check—as often happens with Recall Knowledge or Seek—you can usually activate fortune or misfortune abilities for that check. Just tell the GM, and they’ll apply the ability to the check.