cRogue build...


Advice

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I've always assumed heirloom weapon was with just the weapon you start with and not that type of weapon. If it's with that type of weapon then the trait is literally better than a feat.

That being said, you could take the feat Ancestral Weapon Mastery to gain proficiency with all of the weapons referenced including the orchorn bow.


LordKailas wrote:

I've always assumed heirloom weapon was with just the weapon you start with and not that type of weapon. If it's with that type of weapon then the trait is literally better than a feat.

That being said, you could take the feat Ancestral Weapon Mastery to gain proficiency with all of the weapons referenced including the orchorn bow.

There are plenty of traits that are better than feats. Mainly because the floor for feats is through the basement


It is a non-masterwork simple or martial weapon, that you still have to pay the cost of... which makes no sense, whatsoever.

It's a family heirloom that you are apparently carrying with you as your father before you... except for the fact that this weapon is not worth passing down to your children because it is a non-masterwork simple/martial weapon... and the person taking the trait still has to purchase it... almost like it wasn't a family heirloom at all, but instead just another weapon on the shelf like THE REST OF ITS TYPE!!!

Why do you have to pay for it if you're taking it from the mantle above the fireplace?

Why is it being passed on through your family if it's just a crappy simply weapon? Go sharpen a stick, there's a fine family treasure for your kids, right? Keep the family safe for generations to come.


So, I still don't understand D-Lord... you're saying that Fighter is bad in Core b/c they don't have a niche? What they do isn't unique among the Core classes, if only using the Core book, so they should be disregarded as un-good b/c everyone gets feats, has Will saves, can wear armor, etc?

That argument, if I'm understanding it correctly, is purely emotional. Is a fighter effective at their job of dealing at least 1/4 of the damage needed to down a villain while having defense enough to withstand exposure to the front line melee threats? Yes. Mechanically the fighter is just fine. Are they interesting, do they have a "niche" that others don't? Matters of opinion since your definition of a PF character "niche" and mine vary.

By the same mechanical measure a cRogue meets many of the criteria dictated by the averages of Monster Creation in the Core Bestiary. Where they fall down are in melee accuracy and damage excluding SA. The right build makes a cRogue a tank, especially if adhering to WBL, but since they have no baked in accuracy boosters and Weapon Finesse only goes so far, that same tanking rogue is only hitting on about 50% - 60% of their first attack in a fight.

I could try to spew the point about Core being about a group of characters but this wouldn't make anyone happy. Bottom line, cRogue is not quite as good at their accuracy in combat than, say, a Full BAB Core class with good skills (Ranger) or a 3/4 BAB skill class with built in accuracy boosters (Bard, Monk even). Unfortunately there I do have to concede to this being a tough class to play.

Whether this makes the bad, or useless, or whatever, in relation to the other Core classes in a purely Core setting, I'd still argue no but I suppose that's also a matter of opinion.


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Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

So, I still don't understand D-Lord... you're saying that Fighter is bad in Core b/c they don't have a niche? What they do isn't unique among the Core classes, if only using the Core book, so they should be disregarded as un-good b/c everyone gets feats, has Will saves, can wear armor, etc?

This argument is done to death on the boards, but no. The Core Fighter is not good at combat. The Fighter is good at dealing damage, but has no ability beyond what any class has to circumvent enemies or get in a position to deal damage. It has little to no ability to deal with flying enemies if you aren't an archery specialist(Even if you are, if the enemy has defenses against them), has no way of dealing with difficult terrain, powering through conditions, basically any situation aside from "You stand in a featureless 5x5 room."

So to followup what Derklord said...Yes. The Fighter is bad because they lack features beyond what anybody else can take.

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:


By the same mechanical measure a cRogue meets many of the criteria dictated by the averages of Monster Creation in the Core Bestiary. Where they fall down are in melee accuracy and damage excluding SA. The right build makes a cRogue a tank, especially if adhering to WBL, but since they have no baked in accuracy boosters and Weapon Finesse only goes so far, that same tanking rogue is only hitting on about 50% - 60% of their first attack in a fight.

I would disagree. The Rogue has much the same issues the Fighter has, only with worse saves, AC, and ability to hurt their enemies.

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:


As such, if you wanted to build a dex-based character without spells, good at stealth and skills in general, disables magic traps, and deals Precision damage... among the Core classes rogue is your ONLY choice.

If you build character theme first instead of class first, there is no reason to ever pick a Rogue even in Core. A Ranger can completely ignore their spells and be a better option. A Rogue is not "good" at stealth and skills. They're mediocre. They gain no benefits over other classes who drop a skill point in them. A Ranger is way better at stealth in several terrains(Such as urban, a very rogue-like selection) and can hide in plain sight/camouflage. A Core Rogue can't even hide good.

Note that you basically need to deliberately name every feature the Rogue does get, because there are lots of ways to get an approximation of what Rogues can do. Specifically the "Does Precision damage" which is quite frankly absurd. Nobody cares if they can do precision damage. Precision damage is not a plus. It's just damage that's situational and can't crit. In fact when it comes to thematics, a Ranger learning how to fight certain enemies is a better approximation because they're learning how to find gaps in the enemies' defenses and attack for greater damage. That sounds a lot more realistic than a street urchin or thug knowing how to sneak attack a Dragon.

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