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Welcome all, N. Jolly here to introduce a new project from the Legendary Games team. Here's what Jason Nelson, the publisher, has to say on it:
PROJECT #2: COREFINDER - This is Pathfinder Refined. It retains the core structure of Pathfinder 1st Ed and is intended to be generally backwards compatible with it, in particular on the GM side, so that existing PFRPG monsters and adventures can be used without the need for massive revisions. It has a lot more room for innovation and redesign on the player side when it comes to classes, feats, and spells. This is an edition that distills the very best of Pathfinder 1E - it fixes the broken, clarifies the muddy, purges the chaff, condenses the redundant, reins in the OP, improves the lame, and polishes what's already good.
It also has a second purpose, which is to extract the core essence of Pathfinder 1E to its Core (hence the Corefinder name) in a way akin to the 1980s Rules Cyclopedia for the BECMI series of D&D modules, and it will present genre-free core for the rules that can be adapted to any genre, PLUS a Corefinder Fantasy module that incorporates magic, magic items, and all the trappings of a traditional PF/D&D-style game. Whether we publish these as separate books or an omnibus is more of a logistical question than anything else, but we would like to have the root Corefinder able to be adapted to different genres and styles.
This project is going to be to Pathfinder what Pathfinder was to 3.5, revised by the best of the third party scene. Considering the pedigree of our developers and designers, I can promise that this is going to be the definitive version of the game, and the base rules will be made with lots of ideas and concepts that have helped make Pathfinder great in mind.
For those who would like to stay in the loop directly, there's also the Legendary Games Discord, a place where you can speak with the designers directly about this new project, make suggestions, and use that one emote I have of myself!
Count me as extremely interested.
I will be watching this with interest. My group has made it very clear that PF2 is not what they want in a game but an upgrade of PF1 would be welcome
Dot
Dot.
I'm very curious how will you make a way to address the wildly different ideas the remaining PF1 community has about "what it takes to fix Pathfinder".
N. Jolly, what are the other two projects?
Yeehaw.
What classes will get love?
Any examples of game mechanics that you are specifically looking at fixing?
Any examples of spells that you will be fixing?
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N. Jolly, what are the other two projects?
Here's the first:
PROJECT #1: Legendary Classes Compendium - This is taking the existing Legendary Classes books that LG has published over the past 6 years or so, refining with some editing and reorganization, and publishing as compiled class book supplements for the existing Pathfinder RPG. Because the classes have been completed in no particular order, just whatever people were interested in doing, we've got all the martial classes done but not all the magical ones. We probably will compile this in two volumes, one the LCC: Martial (which we can start the editing and compilation process on now) and one LCC: Magical, which we can do once we finish Legendary Classes books for Bards, Clerics (almost finished), Druids (we have a villain book for druids), Sorcerers, and Wizards (I've got a decent start on this but much left to go).
And the second, much bigger one:
PROJECT #3: NEWFINDER - This is where we go all the way down the rabbit hole with Alice and deconstruct Pathfinder and rebuild it as something new. It will carry echoes of Pathfinder in its DNA and in its conceptual and naming conventions, but all sacred cows are on the table for abolition and reconstruction, from BAB to alignment to classes, skills, feats, spells, and all the rest. Backwards compatibility is no longer a consideration. This game is entirely forward-thinking, not backwards-looking. Newfinder is a placeholder name to indicate that this is the place for ideas that push off the edge of what makes Pathfinder feel like Pathfinder. We may come up with a new and better name later, but that'll do as well as any for now.
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Please let me be a part of this.
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Please let me be a part of this.
You've written for LG before, haven't you? Join the discord, ping me, and we'll talk.
And for non business related stuff:
What classes will get love?
Any examples of game mechanics that you are specifically looking at fixing?
Any examples of spells that you will be fixing?
So for classes, what we're looking at is making sure every class had its own type of thematic utility. That you're not excluded from social moments because you mainly swing a sword. While we want to do things to make classes more interesting (ala legendary class redesigns), our main focus is on making sure the game is playable for everyone at all times.
The above could be considered one, but we are looking at the best way to limit the 'need' of magical items. We're absolutely working on making magic special again.
We don't have any specific spells we can give solid answers on at the moment (I'm a class guy myself, so that's not in my wheelhouse), but once we do, I'll get back to you.
I would love to get rid of stat boosting items, cloaks of resistances, rings of protection, and amulets of natural armor. Well maybe not belts of giant strength(maybe as a minor artifact)
I would love to get much better stat growth like +2 to 3 stats at 4th and every 4 levels after. Stats max out at 30.
I would love to add 1/2 your level to AC(and CMD if you are still using that mechanic) maxing out at +10 at level 20.
I pinged you!
I pinged Jolly. But I will mail you too.
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I would love to get rid of stat boosting items, cloaks of resistances, rings of protection, and amulets of natural armor. Well maybe not belts of giant strength(maybe as a minor artifact)
I would love to get much better stat growth like +2 to 3 stats at 4th and every 4 levels after. Stats max out at 30.
I would love to add 1/2 your level to AC(and CMD if you are still using that mechanic) maxing out at +10 at level 20.
Yeah, removing the treadmill of items was at the heart of what we wanted to do; those items don't help the game and actively diminish the slots needed for those items.
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So basically something akin to the Automatic Progression rules from Unchained?
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automati c-bonus-progression/?fbclid=IwAR0VUbj8rMlzYGJ181Oej5kl2fYpuMyEmvfox2qb1WuU2 YAK31nMhp7Cxg8
How will you handle feat tax / feats that should basically be class features? Like Natural Spell?
Along the same lines, yeah. The goal will be to make the math not need to require those items. If we do that through APG or other such things, we'll make sure it all works out.
And I've always had a personal rule about things like that; if an ability is so good that everyone takes it, you either have to make it a part of the base class or nerf it. We won't be big on having 'feat taxes' or things like that, or leaving out parts of the class that should have always been in there (like infusion for alchemist).
I think this Corefinder thing will be more successful than the Porphyra RPG, which until very recently seemed to be the only known attempt to update PF1 by a 3pp.
My only question (which I doubt anyone has the ability to answer) is which one will be out first....
Well I could add so many things I would like to see for this, but we do have a lot of wish lists for stuff like this already in the Pathfinder 1E section.
I'm a big fan of your and Legendary Games' work, and incorporated a bunch of your content into my PF game. Definitely will be following this.
This might not be in the immediate scope of this project, but one thing off the top of my head I would love to see is more built-in synergy between various subsystems that PF1 rolled out over the years. There's already some with Kingdom Building and Mass Combat since they developed together, but I've been rewriting/stealing ideas to incorporate Mythic, Downtime and Reputation systems together with them.
For example, I altered Leadership feat to be able to recruit Downtime teams at a much quicker and cheaper rate with stronger loyalty to you, instead of individuals automatically flocking to you. I've also hashed out some guidelines on what benefits you get when forming Mass Combat armies out of your follower teams (cheaper and quicker recruitment time, easier Loyalty checks). Something I've been meaning to get to is adding Reputation rewards or titles that tie into the kingdom leadership roles and commanders commanders.
Your Mythic Character Codex had a great taste of this with the Mythic Kingdoms section. My players were very excited to see that one, and jumped at the chance of using those abilities.
Well here are some things that come to mind.
-Combat maneuvers can be used without provoking AoOs with no feats needed, maybe only a BA of +1.
-Weapon finesse is built into the game, no feat needed, though dex to damage(for a single finesse weapon) could be a feat.
-Dex to damage is built into the Rogue and Swashbuckler.
-The Caster level, save DCs, etc. of magic items based on user, except for artifacts which are already maxed out at level 20.
-Anyone can use wands, no UMD check needed.
-Maybe have a magic point mechanic(level + highest mental stat mod) to replace magic item charges and other limited use abilities.
-Maybe enhancement bonuses for weapons, armor, and shields be based on user's level as well.
-Limited use magic items like potions and scrolls function as normal.
-Let you choose Cha instead of Wis for AC(and other class abilities) for Monk, Shifter, etc.
-Maybe wich stat you choose for AC(and other class abilities) determine your alignment choices are for the Monk(Int- NE, N, NG; Wis- LE, LN, LG; Cha- CE, CN, CG).
-No traits and no favored class bonuses but Max HP and all skills are class skills.
-Easier jump DCs, it is a fantasy world, if a player wants their character to be able to jump 20'+ without a +60 acrobatics then let them.
-More reasonable tumble DCs.
-No more CMD, use AC instead.
-Better more streamlined grapple rules.
I would love to get rid of stat boosting items, cloaks of resistances, rings of protection, and amulets of natural armor. Well maybe not belts of giant strength(maybe as a minor artifact)
I would love to get much better stat growth like +2 to 3 stats at 4th and every 4 levels after. Stats max out at 30.
I would love to add 1/2 your level to AC(and CMD if you are still using that mechanic) maxing out at +10 at level 20.
Yeah, I did this in my campaign when I noticed that everyone, including my NPCs, always direct stat-boosting items by default. I removed those and gave a +1 to two different stats every level (only because our game bends toward being high-powered).
I did end up bringing stat-boosting enchantments back, but at twice the cost, and they can only be applied to pre-existing magic items, and the maximum bonus limited by the quality/price of the magic item.
For AC, I gave a defense bonus equal to your BAB (in theory, a fighter is better at defending herself than a wizard), since I use a simplified version of the armor-as-DR variant.
Dotting.
So for classes, what we're looking at is making sure every class had its own type of thematic utility. That you're not excluded from social moments because you mainly swing a sword. While we want to do things to make classes more interesting (ala legendary class redesigns), our main focus is on making sure the game is playable for everyone at all times.
Will the Legendary Classes be used for classes, or will you be attempting to further re-work them? Also, will the 'core book' be the original 11 classes? Or will you include some of the others?
I would love to see the return of 10th level spells, as part of 'core rules' and then 11+ as part of possible epic rules. Which, btw, I would love to see Legendary take on.
Can we please have all classes gain at least 4+Int for skills? It's almost painful for me to ever play a class that only gets 2+Int, and it really limits your ability to contribute to the overall game. I'm playing a sorcerer in my IRL game atm, and it hurt only having 4 skills. When we leveled to 4th the other night, I took a level in Spheres of Power's Eliciter for some extra skills(and the mind powers that fit my PCs theme).
And don't give me that nonsense that having a high Int is good enough. One, that only affects Int based casters(which are few), and still doesn't really get you that much. At best, you might have a 20 in Int if you're a Wizard, which only gets you 6 skill points at(before level ups and additional increases).
I would also love to see a natural 20 exceptional successes for skills that you have ranks in. Maybe limited further to class skills. I think that would create some really special moments in game. However, I'm not sure there needs to be a critical fail on a natural 1. After all, skills represent training in many cases, so you shouldn't really be messing up that badly.
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I second 4 + Int for skills. Also, I did away with class skills in my games. I let the players choose 4 "background" skills that are class skills for their character.
In addition to consolidating skills, I've consolidated some feats, such as Two Weapon Fighting (an example of that thinking can be seen in New Paths Expanded by Kobold Press) and improved some existing feats to scale by level. For instance, Weapon Focus gives additional +1 for every 5 BaB, Dodge gives additional +1 for every 5 ranks in Acrobatics etc.
-Yeah 4+Int skills minimum for all classes.
-Add blowgun, dart, great club, light flail and maybe a few other "primitive" weapons to the Druid/Shifter weapon list.
-Add boomarang, net, whip(and maybe a few others) to the Rogue weapon list.
-Make the boomarang a martial weapon or make it worth being an exotic weapon.
-The Alchemist actually has an ability(or abilities) that make alchemical items more powerful, especially the damage dealing ones.
-More powerful/higher level alchemical items in general.
-Would be nice for the kinetic defenses for wood and void to be on par with the other elements.
-Less requirements (and more reasonable requirements) for feats.
-Maybe magic items(at least weapons, armor, shields, rings, and amulets) gain abilities based on your level.
-Add nature magic as a category for classes like druid, ranger, hunter, etc.
Feat trees should never be more than three deep.
Feat sequences sure, but I'm OK with a set of 3 style feats also requiring improved unarmed strike for example (for an unarmed style).
Some sort of limit I agree. The Aldori dueling sword stuff for example is insane (also ineffective, but that's another story). But swordplay style builds on feinting which means it needs combat expertise & improved feint as prereqs, and it's conceptually good and somewhat useful. Maybe combat expertise could be removed in Corefinder (just use fighting defensively where required) which could bring that to 3 in a sequence +1 prereq?
I'm in the camp of removing certain "everyone's going/got to take" feats. Trade-off feats, for instance, strike me as something that could just be an inherent feature of the combat system, maybe with some limitations gated by something such as BAB.
It's something LG mentioned in their FB post on Corefinder. Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Vital Strike.
In my game, I've done the same with Pirahna Strike, Deadly Aim, Lunge. I'm thinking of adding Cleave to that list too. I did keep the stat and BAB requirements, so you'd need Str 13 and BAB +1 to do Power Attack, so characters that are Str or Dex based get to feel special because they get a few more combat options than say a wizard.
-Combat expertise built into the system, no feat needed. Though a BA bonus of at least +1 and Dex 13 would still be required.
-Use ether Con mod or Str mod for Fort saves, whichever is currently higher.
-Use ether Dex mod or Int mod for Ref saves, whichever is currently higher.
-Use ether Wis mod or Cha mod for Will saves, whichever is currently higher.
-Maybe vital strike built into the game, no feat needed.
-If you do a system similar to the automatic progression rules, don't make stat increases count as enhancement(or any "typed") bonuses.
-Combat options limited only by your BA would be interesting. Especially at BA +1, +5, +10, +15, and +20.
-Maybe all martial classes should get a free exotic weapon prof.
-Maybe all players should get one "boon" at 1st level that is ether a combat, magic, skill, or race based.
-The kineticist gets pool of "burn" points(Con mod + 1/2 level) instead of standard burn mechanic, at least as an optional choice.
-Sorcerers get their bloodline spells at the level they gain spells of those levels.
-Non-archetype Options to use alternate casting stats during character creation. As for the psychic I think you should not choose their secondary stat as their caster stat.
-No more AL requirements for non-divine classes.
-Would like less and/or shorter feat chains.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I for one don't want to get rid of magic items which provide boosts to ability scores, saving throws, or armor class. It simply isn't rational to have a high magic fantasy world which has spells and magic items which can do just about anything, but then say "nope, there's no magic items (or spells) which increase your Strength, deflect attacks away, or improve your ability to resist spells, poison, or area of effect attacks".
Now, whether those magic items simply provide a numeric bonus to ability scores, saving throws or armor class or have some other mechanical effect is something I'd be open to, but I couldn't play in a game where you can turn a human into dragon form, summon a demon, shoot lightning bolts out of you hands, but not make someone a bit stronger.
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I for one don't want to get rid of magic items which provide boosts to ability scores, saving throws, or armor class. It simply isn't rational to have a high magic fantasy world which has spells and magic items which can do just about anything, but then say "nope, there's no magic items (or spells) which increase your Strength, deflect attacks away, or improve your ability to resist spells, poison, or area of effect attacks".
Now, whether those magic items simply provide a numeric bonus to ability scores, saving throws or armor class or have some other mechanical effect is something I'd be open to, but I couldn't play in a game where you can turn a human into dragon form, summon a demon, shoot lightning bolts out of you hands, but not make someone a bit stronger.
So the issue with items like this is how they influence the math.PF has issues with the math requiring these items, the math being designed with them in mind. It stifles creativity in item design since you can't make an item that conflicts with those, and they're among the most boring magic items you can get.
We can give them other effects, but the only compromise I could see is just making all of these bonuses inherent and just give different items other unique things they can do. We could just make them tattoos or something like that, so you can still 'get stronger', but don't have the mechanical baggage of it.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I for one don't want to get rid of magic items which provide boosts to ability scores, saving throws, or armor class. It simply isn't rational to have a high magic fantasy world which has spells and magic items which can do just about anything, but then say "nope, there's no magic items (or spells) which increase your Strength, deflect attacks away, or improve your ability to resist spells, poison, or area of effect attacks".
Now, whether those magic items simply provide a numeric bonus to ability scores, saving throws or armor class or have some other mechanical effect is something I'd be open to, but I couldn't play in a game where you can turn a human into dragon form, summon a demon, shoot lightning bolts out of you hands, but not make someone a bit stronger.
So the issue with items like this is how they influence the math.PF has issues with the math requiring these items, the math being designed with them in mind. It stifles creativity in item design since you can't make an item that conflicts with those, and they're among the most boring magic items you can get.
We can give them other effects, but the only compromise I could see is just making all of these bonuses inherent and just give different items other unique things they can do. We could just make them tattoos or something like that, so you can still 'get stronger', but don't have the mechanical baggage of it.
I understand the math impact, which is why I brought up the alternative ability than just a numeric bonus, but like I said, not having an option for magic that makes you stronger, smarter, quicker, etc simply doesn't make sense. I'm not saying I have the solution (and if I did, I'd happily share it) but to me simply removing something which logically should exist to make the math better is an equally bad option.
Spitballing an idea, maybe magic to do things like that can have great effects, but for really short durations only, so strength magic could give you a +10 to Strength (or +5 attack and damage and double carrying capacity, etc) but for only 1 round at a time and it tires you out or has some other limitation if you use it more than once a day.
The compromise is to have both the magic items and the automatic bonus progression. They wouldn’t stack. The ABP can be a little slower than default, but sits there as a safety net, to keep the math on track. The magic items give you the bonuses sooner but not so highly as to break a character that fills those slots with other items.
I would love to get rid of these magic items and have better stat progression. Enhancement bonuses, deflection bonuses, resistance bonuses, etc. can be found from spells and other various class abilities and I am tired of them being useless because of equipment/automatic bonuses progression. Bull strength(and similar spells) stops being useful by 7th-10th and mass bull strength(and similar spells) is completely useless by the time you get it.
Personally just make headbands(circlets, third eyes, etc.) that increase casting power instead of a stat boost, like increasing caster level, save DCs, damage for damage dealing spells, etc.
I am really tired of always having to buy the same stuff over and over again. Though I am not tired of magic weapons, armor, shields, and the various fun items like handy haversack, rod of wonder, ring of freedom of movement, cloak of arachnida, and winged boots.
Maybe something like max seven items with slots total, but if you want all seven to be rings that works.