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An archaic wayfinder functions as a compass and acts as a repository for one cantrip cast into it. To fill an archaic wayfinder, a spellcaster casts the chosen cantrip into the empty device, providing any necessary cost; the spell cannot be one that is normally cast as a free action or reaction. Activating an archaic wayfinder is the same as the casting for the relevant spell. Once it has been activated, it becomes empty again.
So, if my wizard friend puts Electric Arc into my big stupid fighter's Archaic Wayfinder, a) can my fighter activate it at all? (I think yes?) b) does the wayfinder use the wizard's proficiency etc for calculating the DC and damage done, or the fighter's? (not sure); c) is there any reason the wizard can't "refill" the wayfinder after a fight is over, making this effectively a once/fight castable (I think yes, this is doable)?
Many thanks for any clarifications.
A) No, unless your Fighter has a spellcaster dedication. You need to be able to cast a spell to activate it.
B) You use the Fighter Proficiency but the spell is cast at the Wizard's level. Just like a scroll.
C) You can refill it as much as you want.
Roughly, it's like a scroll without the limitation that the spell must be on your spell list. So, you need to be a spellcaster to use it and you use your own spellcasting ability. But the spell is cast at the level of the "item", so if your Wizard is level 3, it will be cast like a level 2 cantrip, whatever the level of the character using it.
Archaic Wayfinder doesn't work like a normal wayfinder. It doesn't require the command action to be activated but the Cast a Spell activity. If you can't cast a spell you can't activate an Archaic Wayfinder. It works like scrolls, wands and staves.
You can cast your innate spells even if you aren’t a member of a spellcasting class.
Unfortunately, it's not an Innate Spell.
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I’m curious about how this works as well. There seems to be a lot of confusion around it.
To add to the list:
D) If only a spell caster can activate it, but I have Trick Magic Item, can I activate it?
E) What skill do I use? Is it based on the tradition of the spell, the caster who put the spell in the wayfinder, or can it be any tradition since it’s an item?
F) What DC would it use? Based on the spell level? Level 0, or the heightened level? The item level?
I’m curious about how this works as well. There seems to be a lot of confusion around it.
To add to the list:
D) If only a spell caster can activate it, but I have Trick Magic Item, can I activate it?
E) What skill do I use? Is it based on the tradition of the spell, the caster who put the spell in the wayfinder, or can it be any tradition since it’s an item?
F) What DC would it use? Based on the spell level? Level 0, or the heightened level? The item level?
Edit because I realized I didn't answer properly.
D) Yes. It's an example in Trick Magic Item description.
E) Your proficiency in any of your traditions with the stored spell in its spell list.
F) Your level + your highest modifier from Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma.
None of that is correct, except for C.
An archaic wayfinder functions as a compass and acts as a repository for one cantrip cast into it. To fill an archaic wayfinder, a spellcaster casts the chosen cantrip into the empty device, providing any necessary cost; the spell cannot be one that is normally cast as a free action or reaction. Activating an archaic wayfinder is the same as the casting for the relevant spell. Once it has been activated, it becomes empty again. An archaic wayfinder can hold an aeon stone and activate its resonant power.
The description says nothing about granting the cantrip as an innate spell, and the bolded part specifically states you must be able to cast the spell in order to utilize it, since it says it operates just like casting the relevant spell.
Even if someone has the spell stored as an innate spell to begin with, they wouldn't be able to utilize the spell because it is not the same manner of casting, especially if the spell stored is of a different tradition than their innate spell.
I’m curious about how this works as well. There seems to be a lot of confusion around it.
To add to the list:
D) If only a spell caster can activate it, but I have Trick Magic Item, can I activate it?
E) What skill do I use? Is it based on the tradition of the spell, the caster who put the spell in the wayfinder, or can it be any tradition since it’s an item?
F) What DC would it use? Based on the spell level? Level 0, or the heightened level? The item level?
Yes. Here's the full rules for how Trick Magic Item would work with that, which should answer all your questions here.
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The description says nothing about granting the cantrip as an innate spell
I linked to the rules earlier. It just seems like people aren't reading them.
Certain spells are natural to your character, typically coming from your ancestry or a magic item rather than your class.
In short, the spell stored in the Wayfinder becomes an innate spell. You use the Cast a Spell activity to cast it, which you can do, because "You can cast your innate spells even if you aren’t a member of a spellcasting class".
The description says nothing about granting the cantrip as an innate spellI linked to the rules earlier. It just seems like people aren't reading them.
Certain spells are natural to your character, typically coming from your ancestry or a magic item rather than your class.In short, the spell stored in the Wayfinder becomes an innate spell. You use the Cast a Spell activity to cast it, which you can do, because "You can cast your innate spells even if you aren’t a member of a spellcasting class".
I've linked an item giving an Innate Spell. It is specifically stated in the item description. Otherwise, it's not an Innate Spell.
Archaic Wayfinder doesn't say it's an Innate Spell.|
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Yes. Here's the full rules for how Trick Magic Item would work with that, which should answer all your questions here.I’m curious about how this works as well. There seems to be a lot of confusion around it.
To add to the list:
D) If only a spell caster can activate it, but I have Trick Magic Item, can I activate it?
E) What skill do I use? Is it based on the tradition of the spell, the caster who put the spell in the wayfinder, or can it be any tradition since it’s an item?
F) What DC would it use? Based on the spell level? Level 0, or the heightened level? The item level?
It doesn’t quite, or I wouldn’t have asked. E is clearer than I made out, but I asked anyway just to be sure. As for F, Trick Magic Item says, “ The GM determines the DC based on the item’s level (possibly adjusted depending on the item or situation).” so then always level 2, even if the cantrip is heightened to level 10 or something like that? (If it can even be stored heightened). Or is this one of those possibly adjusted situations?
D is more of the discussion that Nefreet is bringing up about whether or not you have to be a caster to use the item in the first place.
Yes. Here's the full rules for how Trick Magic Item would work with that, which should answer all your questions here.I’m curious about how this works as well. There seems to be a lot of confusion around it.
To add to the list:
D) If only a spell caster can activate it, but I have Trick Magic Item, can I activate it?
E) What skill do I use? Is it based on the tradition of the spell, the caster who put the spell in the wayfinder, or can it be any tradition since it’s an item?
F) What DC would it use? Based on the spell level? Level 0, or the heightened level? The item level?It doesn’t quite, or I wouldn’t have asked. E is clearer than I made out, but I asked anyway just to be sure. As for F, Trick Magic Item says, “ The GM determines the DC based on the item’s level (possibly adjusted depending on the item or situation).” so then always level 2, even if the cantrip is heightened to level 10 or something like that? (If it can even be stored heightened). Or is this one of those possibly adjusted situations?
D is more of the discussion that Nefreet is bringing up about whether or not you have to be a caster to use the item in the first place.
As a DM, if you use one of your hands to hold a wayfinder with a cantrip at level 19+ and use Trick Magic Item to cast it, I wouldn't annoy you with a hard DC as your action will hardly have much impact.
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I primarily play PFS, so having some clarity around how the item actually works would be helpful. I'm level 5 at the moment, but the difference between a level 2 DC and a level 5 DC is enough that it could matter for some extra fails or crit-fails. And a level 5 electric arc, for example, is still worthwhile and a good backup ranged option, while if everything is going to be at level 0, it might not be worth it to get the item in the first place.
It uses your own proficiency. But if you are level 5, I don't think it'll be a very interesting item. I bought it at level 2, used it twice, and I no more hold it in my hand since level 5.
The description says nothing about granting the cantrip as an innate spellI linked to the rules earlier. It just seems like people aren't reading them.
Certain spells are natural to your character, typically coming from your ancestry or a magic item rather than your class.In short, the spell stored in the Wayfinder becomes an innate spell. You use the Cast a Spell activity to cast it, which you can do, because "You can cast your innate spells even if you aren’t a member of a spellcasting class".
That rule says that Innate Spells can come from Magic Items, not that all Spells from Magic Items are Innate Spells.
Just like not all Ancestry Spells are Innate Spells.
Adapted Cantrip is not an Innate Spell.
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The Archaic Wayfinder has Activate: Cast a Spell.
The Core Rulebook says:
"If an item lists “Cast a Spell” after “Activate,” the activation
requires you to use the Cast a Spell activity (described on
page 302) to Activate the Item. This happens when the
item replicates a spell. You must have a spellcasting class
feature to Activate an Item with this activation component.
If the item can be used for a specific spell, the action icon
for that spell is provided. If it’s an item like a staff, which
can be used for many spells, the icon is omitted, and you
must refer to each spell to determine which actions you
must spend to Activate the Item to cast it.
In this case, Activate an Item gains all the traits from
the relevant components of the Cast a Spell activity."
So, only someone with the spellcasting class feature can use the Archaic Wayfinder by default. That's pretty clear. If you don't have the feature...it does get quite a bit more complicated.
As far as I can decipher, you could use Trick Magic Item to activate it, but the variables get weird. The Archaic Wayfinder by itself doesn't have a Tradition, so by RAW you'd use the Tradition that has the spell on it's list (maybe it'd be better to use the Tradition of the original caster in this case?)
After that the next hurdle is the DC to activate the Wayfinder. It's Item 2, so maybe the DC for a level 2 item? As other people have pointed out, this gets weird if someone puts a heightened cantrip in it, although it's not even clear if you can put in heightened cantrips. It's very muddled, for sure.
After all that though, Trick Magic Item is clear:
"If you activate a magic item that requires a spell attack roll or spell DC and you don’t have the ability to cast spells of the relevant tradition, use your level as your proficiency bonus and the highest of your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifiers. If you’re a master in the appropriate skill for the item’s tradition, you instead use the trained proficiency bonus, and if you’re legendary, you instead use the expert proficiency bonus."
Really the more I read it, the more it sounds like it's supposed to be a 1/day rechargeable scroll for cantrips. Does anyone else get that feeling? It definitely needs a lot of clarifications to work in PFS though.
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The Archaic Wayfinder has Activate: Cast a Spell.
The Core Rulebook says:
"If an item lists “Cast a Spell” after “Activate,” the activation
requires you to use the Cast a Spell activity (described on
page 302) to Activate the Item. This happens when the
item replicates a spell. You must have a spellcasting class
feature to Activate an Item with this activation component.
If the item can be used for a specific spell, the action icon
for that spell is provided. If it’s an item like a staff, which
can be used for many spells, the icon is omitted, and you
must refer to each spell to determine which actions you
must spend to Activate the Item to cast it.
In this case, Activate an Item gains all the traits from
the relevant components of the Cast a Spell activity."So, only someone with the spellcasting class feature can use the Archaic Wayfinder by default. That's pretty clear.
So, honest question, in your opinion, how does what you've quoted jive with what I quoted earlier:
You can cast your innate spells even if you aren’t a member of a spellcasting class.
I do feel like this is a confusing item. If only a spellcaster can use the item, and it only stores cantrips, what purpose does it serve? Cantrips are unlimited.
Give Electric Arc to the Bard/Cleric. Give Stabilize to the Wizard. Give a better cantrip to someone if you meet a higher level caster. There are many uses. But overall, it's just a wayfinder with a small bonus. It's nowhere close to amazing, but it's a level 2 item.
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The Archaic Wayfinder has Activate: Cast a Spell.
The Core Rulebook says:
"If an item lists “Cast a Spell” after “Activate,” the activation
requires you to use the Cast a Spell activity (described on
page 302) to Activate the Item. This happens when the
item replicates a spell. You must have a spellcasting class
feature to Activate an Item with this activation component.
If the item can be used for a specific spell, the action icon
for that spell is provided. If it’s an item like a staff, which
can be used for many spells, the icon is omitted, and you
must refer to each spell to determine which actions you
must spend to Activate the Item to cast it.
In this case, Activate an Item gains all the traits from
the relevant components of the Cast a Spell activity."So, only someone with the spellcasting class feature can use the Archaic Wayfinder by default. That's pretty clear.
So, honest question, in your opinion, how does what you've quoted jive with what I quoted earlier:
You can cast your innate spells even if you aren’t a member of a spellcasting class.
One quote is the rules for items with "Cast a Spell" activation, which this is.
One quote is the rules for innate spells. What's the contradiction?
The Archaic Wayfinder has Activate: Cast a Spell.
The Core Rulebook says:
"If an item lists “Cast a Spell” after “Activate,” the activation
requires you to use the Cast a Spell activity (described on
page 302) to Activate the Item. This happens when the
item replicates a spell. You must have a spellcasting class
feature to Activate an Item with this activation component.
If the item can be used for a specific spell, the action icon
for that spell is provided. If it’s an item like a staff, which
can be used for many spells, the icon is omitted, and you
must refer to each spell to determine which actions you
must spend to Activate the Item to cast it.
In this case, Activate an Item gains all the traits from
the relevant components of the Cast a Spell activity."So, only someone with the spellcasting class feature can use the Archaic Wayfinder by default. That's pretty clear.
So, honest question, in your opinion, how does what you've quoted jive with what I quoted earlier:
You can cast your innate spells even if you aren’t a member of a spellcasting class.
The Arcane Wayfinder doesn't grant an Innate Spell, so Innate Spell rules don't apply here. Items that grant Innate Spells say so specifically, like the Orbs of Dragonkind, the Luck Blade, Ioun Stones, etc.
Is that stated anywhere?
I think those are just a handful of items that happen to include redundant information.
It seems, to me, from the quotes and links I provided earlier, that spells cast from items are innate spells.
Two things here:
1) The quotes and links you provided earlier do not say that. They say that some innate spells come from magical items.
2) You'll find that every single time an ancestry, feat or item grants you a spell as an Innate Spell, it specifically calls it out. For items, you can see the examples I listed. For feats, you can check Arcane Sense or First World Magic. For Ancestry, Wellspring Gnome.
From this we can conclude that if something grants you a spell, but doesn't specify it's an Innate Spell, then it isn't.
The Archaic Wayfinder, like Wands, is activated with Cast a Spell, which requires what I explained above. Nothing in the Wayfinder indicates you can cast the stored Cantrip as an Innate Spell.
If all spells cast from Items were Innate Spells, Trick Magic Item would be a completely worthless feat.
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No offense, but I'm still seeing just inference, and no actual rules.
Don't get me wrong - inference can work when you have nothing else to go off of. I've certainly used it my fair share of times during PF1 rules discussions. But right now I see one argument as stronger than the other.
And I'm also happy to acknowledge when one argument is being presented less than another. With APG coming out next month, and a second errata confirmed for the Core Rulebook, maybe more evidence will eventually come to light.