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I bashed those segments because, truth be told, they deserve bashing. I did not point any individuals out.
The premise of boards like these should be debate, and people should be open-minded, and willing to accept evidence of issues, and, if presented with enough evidence, perhaps have a honest change of heart.
Both categories I mentioned cannot, because the first category sees the current state of casters as desirable, and the second category refuses criticism on the ground that they love Paizo so much.
This is a systemic issue. You can't fix it with a new book. You would have to fix it with a massive errata, but that would mean actually accepting the fact that mistakes were made, which reading these boards does not seem to be the case.
I have accepted that PF2e will have weak casters, and that nothing will change it.
I've made my adjustments after playing for a time. I hope it will shore up the sorcerer and wizard. I learned quite a bit about casting over time. I think dynamic casting should fix a lot of problems while making casting more interesting for casters.
The ability to set the right spell at the right time should help them immensely. Hopefully close that huge damage gap between casters and martials. It shouldn't be that high given the limited caster resources.
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I agree with you that most metamagic feats are garbage, same as most Thesis. But being able to cast 30% more high level spells compared to what's supposed to be the second biggest caster is a pretty big deal. Isn't it?
Nope, it isn't. That's what we're telling this whole time. Just casting more spells is boring and forgettable.
It's one of the reasons I disliked Sorcerer in 3,5, as it was basically that.
I kindof think you're supposed to infer Mastery of Magic from the fact that the Wizard, whose entire super power is "being really really smart and educated", is as good at magic as the person who is -Literally capable of popping in for a face to face consult with their patron deity on a regular basis.
Literally an Avatar of/personification of the very Primal forces of Nature.
Literally the purest manifestation of raw magical power distilled into mortal form.
Remember, the Wizard isn't the one with an all powerful patron, direct connection to the elements, or phenomenal genetics. Hes the one who despite lacking all those things, is still as good as they are at magic - better in some ways. All from intellect, book learning, and practice.
That definitely parses as "Master of Magic" to me if you look at what the mechanics actually represent.
No, it really doesn't, because he's not as good as them. He can just spam a few more spells a day.
All of those classes have so much more to offer in addition to being as good with spells as Wizards. It means Wizard has devoted his intellect to being no better than a bunch of other people at spells, while ignoring everything else.
And you know what, I'm tired of pretending like Focus spells and Composition cantrips aren't spells. They are, and they are excellent spells castable many times a day. And maybe a couple of Wizard Focus spells even comes close to this utility. It more than makes up for any kind of Wizard extra spells.
Except that's all Wizards have, and all those other casters have significantly better other bonuses.
And oh, more flavourful to boot.
Btw, this "Wizard getting spells through intellect and research" doesn't actually get through mechanics anywhere.
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I want to add some more color to the wizard and caster discussion after having obtained more experience.
1. Incapacitation: I see why this is in place now. It sucks at low level. It is absolutely terrible. But at higher level, it isn't nearly as bad. The progression seems to reach a point where critical failure against creatures -2 levels or lower than your caster are more common. You are really hammering mooks hard.
Some spells are still nasty even on a regular success.
You have skills and abilities that further lower saving throws with a hit. You can coordinate these abilities with casters and other martials with them hitting a creature with intimidate, dirge of doom, or a synesthesia which lowers saves, then hammer them with an incapacitate ability and have quite an effect on a battle with even one round of a spell working.
It reaches a point where you can take down mobs that would still take martials a while to carve through. Martials do that great single target damage, but casters are unmatched in their ability to affect multiple targets even with incapacitation effects.
Removing incapacitation likely would be fine for lower level fights and make casters too monstrously powerful at higher level.
2. Game could still use item bonuses for attack spells. Still not sure why that wasn't included. I hope they include that later.
3. Main problem with wizard's is a lack of interesting one action options that don't require focus points. Even the witch has interesting 1 action cantrips that make them slightly more fun to play. Sorcerer also could use interesting 1 action options that don't require focus points.
If Paizo gave the wizard and sorcerer appropriate school and bloodline 1 action options that don't require focus points to add variety, both classes would be fixed in my opinion.
Those 1 action non-focus point options like composition cantrips, witch hexes, animal companion attacks, or optional healing/harm damage for cleric just add that bit of variety that let's you do something interesting and appropriate that makes a class more fun to play. I hope in future class design, it becomes something Paizo makes sure to include with each class. I hope they rework wizards and sorcerers at some point to provide them with 1 action non-focus point options that give them that little extra tactical oomph that improves the fun of playing a class.
Who here has played with a level 20 Wizard? Such a character is literally multiple times better at dealing burst damage than the next closest character. If level 20 matters at all, that is a factor that just can't be overlooked.
Between Spell Combination (Disintegratex2) and Staff Nexus Wizards using a Staff of the Magi and Indestructible, a Wizard can largely invalidate any high level encounter that can be solved purely through damage. The first deals 32d10 (potentially another 28d10 if you follow up and use Quickened Casting for another blast). The second? 74d10 damage off a potential 37 charges.
Now as a whole this is a very small portion of the game. Over the course of an entire 1-20 AP with scores of sessions, you might play 1 session at level 20, or you might get it for the epilogue after beating the BBEG. And it applies to a few tricks applicable to a single feat and thesis.
But it does exist, as much as talking about high level play goes. The only thing comparable as far as capstones is the Cleric's Avatar's Audience, but these exist in two entirely different ecosytems. One is outrageous for combat, the other for social play.
But it wasn't just a narrow combination of feats and items that makes Wizards good at level 20; I had a level 20 Wizard in my campaign, and they lived up to the 'archmage' descriptor. They had Unified Theory, making all the parties magical knowledge checks. They upshifted all but a few spell slots to have an incredible number of high level slots via Spell Substitution. Reprepare Spell let them keep a few high value utility spells (4th level Invisibility, Mirror Image, True Strike) and constantly have those available and they used their downtime to make a dizzying number of scrolls for every other niche scenario or utility power. Clever Counterspell allowed them to have a decent shot of shutting down a caster.
The wizard does become a beast at high level, but not sure how many people will play much there.
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Yeah, its like the prime example of joyful Paizo Forums... I love it. I have learned a lot here, like the Wizard is close to unplayable, and all the fun my group is having with it, is absolutely wrong, but maybe its because It dont even realize how BIAS I against my favorite class.
I want to do a little note on the "Incapacitation" Nerf... Like its the biggest deal ever for low level play... There are 10 Arcane Incapacitation Spells out of 199... not counting Focus Spells. talking about hiperbolic sentiments xD
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wizard is..fine? if a bit boring. they feel bland because their *focus* or shtick is what all the other casters get, they just can do some unique stuff with it (spells)
so their unique thing, doesnt stick out like other characters like say, bard cantrips.
thats actually a big reason i like the bard, they have a good class specific use of your third action in cantrips, yes you can recall knowledge, do x random skill check maneuver, move, etc. But thats what everyone can do, bards do inspire courage for 1 action and no resource cost.
oh they also have 2 more hp per level and can start out with 18 AC wich a wizard cannot. wich is a nice bonus at level 1 no matter how you slice it.
incapacitation is a seperate issue
So you find the Bard more fun than the Wizard, thats pretty cool :)
About the AC I think you can have 18 as a Wizard, Mage Armor (4 + Shield 1) Dex +3 = AC 18 level 1. I know you are using a spell, but hey, you can do it :3
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So you find the Bard more fun than the Wizard, thats pretty cool :)
About the AC I think you can have 18 as a Wizard, Mage Armor (4 + Shield 1) Dex +3 = AC 18 level 1. I know you are using a spell, but hey, you can do it :3
thats a spell, you missed the point friend
thats a spell, you missed the point friend
Sorry, I didn't knew I wasn't allowed to use the abilities of the character - You can take a feat then :)
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Sorry, I didn't knew I wasn't allowed to use the abilities of the character - You can take a feat then :)
thats a spell, you missed the point friend
wizard and sorcerer (maybe witch?) are the only characters that cannot, as base, without investment, reach 18 AC at level 1. they also have the least HP.
im not gonna sit here and tell you they need 8hp or light armor, im just noting it. and its another reason id prefer playing a bard or cleric or druid.
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if wizards could get a good use of their third action as part of their thesis or something, out the gate without feat investment, that would be nice.
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if wizards could get a good use of their third action as part of their thesis or something, out the gate without feat investment, that would be nice.
Shield cantrip isn’t a bad choice in combat. It’s boring, but effective.
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if wizards could get a good use of their third action as part of their thesis or something, out the gate without feat investment, that would be nice.Shield cantrip isn’t a bad choice in combat. It’s boring, but effective.
so the issue is wizard can be boring, so the answer is to be boring? i feel like we can do better, but yes, its effective.
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if wizards could get a good use of their third action as part of their thesis or something, out the gate without feat investment, that would be nice.
I really believe good 1 action cantrips with a useful combat effect would provide that little bit of something that would make wizards and sorcerers more fun to run at low level and not feel so terrible.
The thesis is ok, but very limited. Bloodlines are decent enough, but man that lack of a 1 action option makes them boring and limited compared to other classes who have fun, unique, and useful 1 action options that are class appropriate and usable way more often.
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if wizards could get a good use of their third action as part of their thesis or something, out the gate without feat investment, that would be nice.The Improved Familiar Attunement and Metamagical Experimentation theses do just that.
so thats 2, yes, though they are not unique but merely things you end up getting instead of having to spend feats on.
still, halfway there for those 2.
id prefer something you cannot simply get via a feat, making it feel like a more defining choice, rather then shuffling things around.
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In a well built party a low to mid level wizard's combat job is basically to sit on his hands until there is a dangerous fight where he is needed.I can't quite say whether it is that I haven't had this experience, or that I haven't had any fights that aren't "a dangerous fight"
Either way, the play experience of wizards at my table doesn't appear all that different from other spell casters - throw out the spells you've prepared whenever the situation at hand fits that spell, but don't spend more than 1 or 2 spell slots in an encounter that hasn't already proven exceptionally difficult or had crazy bad luck that needs to be recovered from.
But that's because I've really made an effort to point out to my players that "it might be better to save it for a harder fight" is incompatible with "I don't know how many fights there will be today, nor how hard they will be" so the only way to ensure that they waste the minimal amount of resources is to spend them liberally, rather than try to accurately assess exactly when is the truly most optimal time to use each spell they prepared throughout the adventuring day.
At most they "sit" on a couple things in case their overnight rest gets interrupted (or they prep things which reduce the chance of that kind of interruption) - but they see a resource "saved for a tougher fight" as functionally the same as not even having that resource, because that's what it is in practice if they haven't guessed their encounter spread for the day correctly - which, as you say "you never actually know how long the adventuring day is going to be"
Really? My table has been very different.
Bard: His cantrips are always useful. He saves way more slots than the wizard gets as extra slots using cantrips every round. Most of my rounds are spent Harmonizig, then using two cantrips. Dirge of Doom with Inspire Defense/Courage is a 2 point shift in a battle every round.
On top of that I can cast some powerful spells to further support the group as the Occult Spell list is extremely good.
Druid: My animal companion provides flanks and extra damage continuously. I fire my bow. I can heal. I dispel. I cast damaging focus spells. I buff. I do direct damage. My perception is high due to wisdom. I have an actual shield rather than a cantrip that provides 2 protection. I wear better armor.
My druid does a lot in a group.
Wizard: Lives or dies on the spell attack roll or save. Extra action usually spent casting shield spell or moving. If one of the wizard's spells misses or a good save against it, entire round feels wasted. None of the other caster classes feel that way.
Even when my druid misses or a thing saves, she she has an animal companion to attack or a bow to shoot. Bard still one cantrip to boost the party. Witch still gets to cast a hex or sustain it. Cleric often does a huge heal and feels great.
Wizard or sorcerer live or die on a single roll or save or series of saves every round. It can feel real terrible. They could really use something to make the round not feel like a total loss.
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if wizards could get a good use of their third action as part of their thesis or something, out the gate without feat investment, that would be nice.The Improved Familiar Attunement and Metamagical Experimentation theses do just that.
How do they do this?
You have to be in a situation where using a metamagic feat would be useful.
What can a familiar do in combat? From my reading they are still mostly useless, though the witch does sometimes get a focus point back once a day from her familiar.
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What can a familiar do in combat? From my reading they are still mostly useless, though witch does sometimes get a focus point back once a day from her familiar.
With the release of the APG, they can do quite a lot. Reload your heavy crossbow with a single action, spy on your enemies and transmit valuable intel to you at no risk, or be the origin point of your spells.
And much more.
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What can a familiar do in combat? From my reading they are still mostly useless, though witch does sometimes get a focus point back once a day from her familiar.With the release of the APG, they can do quite a lot. Reload your heavy crossbow with a single action, spy on your enemies and transmit valuable intel to you at no risk, or be the origin point of your spells.
And much more.
so..could you like..spend an action, for your familiar to reload your crossbow twice? since they'd have two actions?
if wizards could get a good use of their third action as part of their thesis or something, out the gate without feat investment, that would be nice.The Improved Familiar Attunement and Metamagical Experimentation theses do just that.so thats 2, yes, though they are not unique but merely things you end up getting instead of having to spend feats on.
still, halfway there for those 2.
id prefer something you cannot simply get via a feat, making it feel like a more defining choice, rather then shuffling things around.
My Wizard usually spends a third action sustaining a Flaming Sphere. Occasionally he kicks it old school and either fires or reloads a crossbow. But I like the somewhat ironic callback to 3.x Wizards.
so..could you like..spend an action, for your familiar to reload your crossbow twice? since they'd have two actions?What can a familiar do in combat? From my reading they are still mostly useless, though witch does sometimes get a focus point back once a day from her familiar.With the release of the APG, they can do quite a lot. Reload your heavy crossbow with a single action, spy on your enemies and transmit valuable intel to you at no risk, or be the origin point of your spells.
And much more.
I don't see why not, though there might be limitations on action order. I'd have to check.
EDIT: Only limitation I've been able to find is that, as a minion, you must give the commands prior to it acting out said commands.
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A lot of people write off metamagic feats, but they clearly are the casters 3rd action flex option. Silent spell is a very strong metamagic feat that only the wizard gets. It is unfortunate that the sorcerer got so many interesting metamagic feats in comparison to the wizard, and that is something that I believe could and should be addressed in the big magic book next year. Metamagic feats seem like easy design space to make the studied spell caster have a narrative and mechanical niche. There are some interesting options, but few unique ones and few ones that really feel studious in nature.
One action cantrips exist. Shield, Message, guidance (which unfortunately is not on the wizard list). It is a shame that sigil requires two actions for some reason (conspiracy theories about secret Transmutation hate anyone?) because it would be fun/funny to tag things/enemies in combat. There are certainly some choices with spells that don't feel connected to any kind of necessary balance.
A one action attack cantrip would be laughably bad. Probably something like an attack roll 1d4 - no attribute modifier attack that heightens +2. I promise if it happens, it will not make people who are upset with wizards happy.
metamagic feats and focus powers are the best bet for interesting one action wizard options.
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if wizards could get a good use of their third action as part of their thesis or something, out the gate without feat investment, that would be nice.
People rag on wizard focus spells, but quite a few of them only use one action, which makes them quite good as a third action on a turn.
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Wizard or sorcerer live or die on a single roll or save or series of saves every round.I don't see that as any more true for a caster than it is for a martial character from a perspective of how it feels to the player.
Really? My table has been very different.You seem to be describing all your casters as I did - using their spell slots whenever it seems like a good time - rather than the "sit on their hands" play I was saying isn't my experience. So you seem to be describing the same experience, but with a player that feels bad about dice rolls not going in their favor (which differs from my group only in that a dice roll going a particular way is not what the player feeling good hinges upon).
The martials get to roll multiple times a round, which often offsets a single bad roll. They have some good 1 action non-attack actions like Demoralize and now Bon Mot. Though a sorcerer could take intimidate and diplomacy to get some use out of them. Bon Mot real nice for a sorcerer wanting to set up a will save spell, better than anything he could cast or use as a focus spell.
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if wizards could get a good use of their third action as part of their thesis or something, out the gate without feat investment, that would be nice.People rag on wizard focus spells, but quite a few of them only use one action, which makes them quite good as a third action on a turn.
Have you read the focus spells? Not the greatest we've found in play. Sorcerer does have some decent focus spells. Wizard not so much.
Hand of the Apprentice is probably the one that you can use most effectively with a good magic weapon.
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so..could you like..spend an action, for your familiar to reload your crossbow twice? since they'd have two actions?What can a familiar do in combat? From my reading they are still mostly useless, though witch does sometimes get a focus point back once a day from her familiar.With the release of the APG, they can do quite a lot. Reload your heavy crossbow with a single action, spy on your enemies and transmit valuable intel to you at no risk, or be the origin point of your spells.
And much more.
I don't see why not, though there might be limitations on action order. I'd have to check.
EDIT: Only limitation I've been able to find is that, as a minion, you must give the commands prior to it acting out said commands.
I could see that. You shoot your crossbow, the little guy waits until you fire your bolt then locks in the new bolt and reloads.
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The martials get to roll multiple times a roundThey can, but there are a not insignificant number of rounds in which they don't.
And a caster can, from time to time at least, take a turn in which they get to roll multiple things too so my point still stands that the game feel aspect doesn't appear to actually differ from one class feeling like they "live or die" on a die roll and another class feeling like they don't - though it can differ from player to player how much their enjoyment is impacted by how the dice happen to have rolled.
In our campaigns the only one that doesn't average 2 to 4 per round with haste is the champion who usually raises their shield. The champion feels powerful blocking damage with Champion's Reaction.
The archer is fire at will nearly every round as is the rogue. The rogue usually has to spend a move action to move to the target, but after that it's swing away. The archer has to spend an action to mark here and there, but after that fire away. He has Hunted Shot, so is usually getting two attacks every round with 1 action.
The fighter usually gets two attacks. One power attack and a second attack except when hasted. The flurry ranger goes off all the time. Averages 3 attacks a round nearly every round.
Barbarian usually 2 per round though he sometimes uses a big swipe and needs an action to rage and move initially.
After that initial around to close for battle, rage, mark, or what not multiple attacks is the standard for martials. Martials have lots of action economy feats too, which casters are lacking.
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...multiple attacks is the standard for martials.In some campaigns.
Haha, "in some campaigns". Man i've been really taking it for granted to actually attack 2 (or even 3 or 4) times as a martial.
For the most part i think your style of discussion isn't too bad on the forums noble, but some of these responses feel like sometimes you argue for the sake of arguing and this tends to frustrate some people. Most people don't get too bugged by it but it would feel a little better if you try to see their side a bit better.
You still seem to be missing the "dice making you feel bad is a player trait, not a class trait" aspect of the discussion though.
I think he has already acknowledged that part of the discussion even though he has not explicitly specified it. But i think you might not be acknowledging his point that spellcasters usually have less chances to do something fun since they are casting a 2 action spell like Deriven pointed out.
Now, i think after PC spellcasters are more accustomed to PF2 and realize a little more how some of these 4 failure effects are still very important their opinions will change but a lot of players still struggle with doing their usual 1 spell and seeing the bad guys save against it.
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...multiple attacks is the standard for martials.In some campaigns.
Martials have lots of action economy feats too, which casters are lacking.It's nice of martials to have something that casters lack, on account of all the things casters have that martials lack.
You still seem to be missing the "dice making you feel bad is a player trait, not a class trait" aspect of the discussion though.
don't take this the wrong way but there is a fundamental issue with the way of thinking
if you nerf a gun to become balanced with a fist by dealing less damage and having only 4 shots to compensate for the range, you will end up in a nonsensical world were people for some mysterious reason created weapons that are weaker than their own hands
the issue with non-supernatural classes is that they live in a world that is drowning in supernatural stuff even they use talismans, runes as well as potions etc...
"you live in a supernatural world where magic can do supernatural things"
"your class does not use magic"
"all classes are perfectly and equality balanced"
those 3 statements simply cannot be true at the same time hence we are getting non-supernatural classes doing supernatural things like jumping cloud high in the middle of the air or hiding in plain sight without invisibility
make no mistake i absolutely love that to me its the way it should be but one has to admit that in the end those natural abilities are pretty much supernatural
the very eldritch trickster racket mentions how much magic has an effect in the world
why bother to pick a lock when you can get dimensional door and drill a small gap and use it or better just melt the lock or wall with acid or send a familiar
dimension door is a non rare level 4 spell so its hardly that difficult to obtain
so do you get what a mean? it just wouldn't make sense for any high level rogue to insist on not using magic when it would make his job infinitely easier
logically they would probably get a lot of illusion enchantment teleportation etc... magic and trying to make then not use it results in this weird paradox
what wold your reaction be if a person in real life said they wanna fight in the army but they refuse to use technology and instead only fight with primitive weapons like swords, i for once would call then crazy and pray their imminent death won't be too painful
in fact i would argue that being a human noways and not being trained on knowledge science would leave you vulnerable to a lot of things like bombs, snipers and drone is the easiest way to ensure you will never make it out of a war alive
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don't take this the wrong way but there is a fundamental issue with the way of thinking <snipped for space>I think you think I said something different than what I think I said, because I'm not understanding how your post is supposed to relate to mine that you quoted. It reads like I've just walked into the room where you are already mid conversation with someone else and I don't have the context necessary to grasp the topic being discussed.
let me explain it better
"It's nice of martials to have something that casters lack, on account of all the things casters have that martials lack."
well of course you wont be able to do these supernatural things if you refuses to learn magic
if you wanna do those things just get an caster archetype its that easy