Besides Dirty Tricks, do any other combat maneuvers maintain their relevance?

[VoodistMonk]

At higher levels, are any of the maneuvers worth the investment other than Dirty Tricks? Especially considering 3/4 BAB characters, or characters that require Agile Maneuvers as yet another feat they have to invest in...

Trip is almost always useful for NPC's, but it runs out of utility for PC's about halfway through their careers.

I guess Grapple can be effective over the entire course, but it means you are probably a Succubus, or a Luchador, or a Monk, or a Succubus Luchador Monk... so it definitely has its uses, but at what cost? (I mean, being a Lawful Evil Succubus in tight spandex and a mask isn't all bad)

[avr]

You need a specific build to justify anything at high levels, with the exception of 'being a wizard'.

A heavily-armoured cleric with righteous might and air walk can use overrun to knock even giant flying snakes prone. If that cleric's a Gorumite with dazing spell then his armor spikes may leave them dazed behind him.

Disarm's only ever a sometimes thing, but if you can pull it off and take their weapon it's actually a more effective debuff at high levels. To do this you want the arming grab feat, martial weapon proficiency and both hands free - a Jistkan artificer magus might do well.

[Scott Wilhelm]

I think Grappling sure does.

I suspect that it is overstated that Combat Maneuvers lose their relevance.

What happens to mid-level Tripping Characters?

[Matthew Downie]

Tripping works pretty well against opponents that can be tripped. A lot of high-level enemies can fly, or are blobs with no legs, or otherwise immune. It's hard to quantify this, since it depends almost entirely on adventure design.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Maneuvers (outside of the aforementioned Dirty Trick) are kind of like Poison; they can work wonders at the lowest levels of play but become more and more situational as you level.

Grappling remains relevant as a de-buff into the upper levels, but it ties up both grappler and the grappled. Others though:

Bull Rush, Drag, Reposition: you move your opponent into a spot that sets them up for something worse. For one, Bull Rush won't let you toss 'em into a pit or off a cliff unless you're getting really high checks. Most of the time your movement of the enemy doesn't cause AoOs for another (unless you build for that over time). Essentially you build for these just to make sure that a single enemy will be exactly where your party needs them to be on the battle map.

Disarm and Steal carry the obvious prerequisite that you face armed opponents or foes with something to take. By the time most of your foes are either undead spellcasters, dragons, or enormous oozes this line loses it's luster regardless of how well you build for them.

Overrun sure, you can keep this around most of your career, but again this becomes your primary build tactic. Add in that the size of your opponent has to be no bigger than one greater than you and the more legs it has, the harder this gets. So if you're Medium sized, have no easy size-change options cued up all the time, and get to the upper levels where many enemies can be Huge or bigger, you're out of luck.

Sunder I put in a separate category than Disarm/Steal, even though you've got the same caveat that you need opponents with something to break to be relevant. If you have said opponents though and make it into mid/upper levels with these feats you can inflict Fear effects and debuff opponents, though again this line loses its luster as you face less and less armed or armored foes.

Trip - this one's been threaded to death on these forums. Bottom line: same issues as Overrun, with less upper level feat support.

My biggest problem with using a Combat Maneuver build is that these are usually feat-intensive. If you're a 3/4 BAB, you're already at a slight disadvantage on your to hit bonus. Tack on size requirements for some and enemy item requirements for others and many feat lines simply aren't relevant unless you're facing the right KIND of enemies.

But let's say you take a 3/4 BAB PC, build them into upper levels with some Giant Skin armor (or whatever it's called that lets you assume giant size) or have some kind of Wildshape ability and you've gone down the Overrun line. You have a really solid way to make a single opponent get knocked prone, and maybe you're doing a little damage to them on their way down.

Cool.

Meanwhile after all those levels a ranged attacking, 3/4 BAB PC with the same amount of feats dedicated to using a bow, with the right equipment, is reliably dealing that SAME amount of damage to up to 3 or more foes around the map or dealing x3 or more damage to a single opponent from a 30' distance from this foe. A melee build is inflicting massive damage on a full attack. A spellcasting PC with an Animal Companion and the right build is delivering a glut of damage and a fairly reliable debuff (if they can beat SR and immunities) on a single foe.

I guess my point is: focusing on a CM build requires maximum effort over time to keep it relevant into higher levels while most of these affect less and less opponents. Focusing instead on either DPR or Battlefield Control type spells remain relevant regardless of opponent type.

In other words, you can ALWAYS end a fight by flinging certain high-level spells or dealing tons of damage. This is not always the case with a CM. Which do you build for?

[Scott Wilhelm]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Grappling remains relevant as a de-buff into the upper levels, but it ties up both grappler and the grappled.

Well, when you have opponents Grappled in your White Hair, you aren't Grappled, only your opponents are.

With a Combination of Expert Captor and Greater Grapple or White Hair, Flurry of Maneuvers and Expert Captor, you can Grapple and Tie Up an opponent in a single round.

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Bull Rush, Drag, Reposition

Most of the time your movement of the enemy doesn't cause AoOs

It's just greater Bull Rush, Drag, or Reposition. That's not a lot of buildup

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Overrun [Bull Rush, & Trip]... the size of your opponent has to be no bigger than one greater than you

There is the Harder they Fall Feat which lets you Trip and Bull Rush bigger opponents.

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

I guess my point is: focusing on a CM build requires maximum effort over time to keep it relevant into higher levels

I think that can be said of all melee builds. If you want to play an easy character, play a Cleric or Wizard, never a fighter.

[PFRPGrognard]

Tripping and or grappling is always effective. If you're not playing a full BAB class, of course, you may have a harder time finding success.

[avr]

Poised bearing and imposing bearing allow you to affect creatures two and three sizes larger than you with overrun or trip. The cleric I described is using righteous might to be large, too.

The extreme focus of combat maneuver builds (except perhaps magi using true strike to get a high CMB with less in feats) is a problem. Deriding them as ineffective is saying you haven't worked them thru though; overrun, disarm or trip can get extra attacks, grapple can do a surprising amount of damage if you pick up constrict somehow and/or armor spikes, and they all debuff better than an archery build even when they do less damage.

[Mark Hoover 330]

A to the V to the R, you're right; I'm not experienced with CM builds. I'm sorry if I appear to be deriding them - I didn't mean to but I see where I came off that way so I apologize. My ignorance got the better of me here.

My other point though was that damage is always relevant. If your foe is a ghost, grappling and a weapon both have the same problem of connecting. If it's a blob or a magma elemental, weapons are slightly more effective. If we're talking about a Huge construct grappling might still suffer against it's size and DR, but the right weapon or weapon property gets right in there.

I stand corrected though, some CM builds obviously retain their efficacy into the upper levels. I'm dumb for not knowing these builds so I'm sorry for chiming in so negatively and I appreciate the education threads like this provide :)

My experience has been in building for DPR. Even my spellcasters tend to focus on damage or debuff-and-damage effects. I probably have a one track mind to combat resolution and need to broaden my horizons. In that experience though damage has always been at least a little effective and relevant.

To Scotty Dubs and The A Bomb, thank you for the heads up on CM builds. I'll do a deeper dive into these, especially for the bad guys. I GM often and enjoy optimizing enemies for interesting fights. Rebuilding the occasional intelligent, multi-feat foe with a nod towards Grappling or Disarming might be kind of fun!

[Mudfoot]

At high levels, you can afford a Wand of True Strike and probably have enough spare skill points to UMD it. +20 makes a lot of maneuvers much easier. Of course the rocket tag of high level means that you might not have the one round spare to cast it.

[Dragonborn3]

PFRPGrognard wrote:

Tripping and or grappling is always effective. If you're not playing a full BAB class, of course, you may have a harder time finding success.

I can agree on Grapple. It works on any sized creature, as long as you can beat their CMB. Trip, however, only works on things one size category larger than you are.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Dragonborn3 wrote:

PFRPGrognard wrote:

Tripping and or grappling is always effective. If you're not playing a full BAB class, of course, you may have a harder time finding success.

I can agree on Grapple. It works on any sized creature, as long as you can beat their CMB. Trip, however, only works on things one size category larger than you are.

There is the Harder they Fall Feat. That gets around the Size Limit.

I guess, since we are talking about high level characters, we can also be talkingabout growing big: Giant Form, Wildshape, Beast-Bonded Witch. Possess Object and control a Colossal statue.

[avr]

Mudfoot wrote:

At high levels, you can afford a Wand of True Strike and probably have enough spare skill points to UMD it. +20 makes a lot of maneuvers much easier. Of course the rocket tag of high level means that you might not have the one round spare to cast it.

This is a terribly bad idea unless you're a magus with the wand wielder arcana, meaning you can use the wand in spell combat (& don't need UMD for that matter). Might not have the one round spare is an understatement.

Quickened true strike is theoretically possible but almost always costs too many spell slots.

[Scott Wilhelm]

avr wrote:

Mudfoot wrote:

At high levels, you can afford a Wand of True Strike and probably have enough spare skill points to UMD it. +20 makes a lot of maneuvers much easier. Of course the rocket tag of high level means that you might not have the one round spare to cast it.

This is a terribly bad idea unless you're a magus with the wand wielder arcana, meaning you can use the wand in spell combat (& don't need UMD for that matter). Might not have the one round spare is an understatement.

Quickened true strike is theoretically possible but almost always costs too many spell slots.

I've worked out a method that makes True Strike work really well with Grappling.

I like the idea of a Magus with a Wand of True Strike combined with a Tripping build. Say use a Split Blade Sword Modified so it is also a Monk Weapon. Take Ascetic Style, Greater Trip, and Vicious Stomp. Now every attack with your Split Blade Sword becomes 2 attacks