Why would it bypass disguises? Pretty sure you still need an opposed perception check, and that's not affected by a microlab?
No
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*rechecks rules*
Okay, looking at what the Microlab does for this purpose, it lets you identify a given species of critter. Bunch of modifiers to that, but it boils down to "What is this thing I am looking at?"
So, would this help against Disguise? No, not by default. A human with a fake mustache is still a human. However, I would grant an exception if the character in question is disguised as a different *species*. Or rather, it wouldn't actually "beat" the Disguise check, it would just give a response of "Species= X" when the character in question looks like Species Y. How the players choose to interpret that information is up to them.
the skill to beat a disguise of a creature as another species is perception vs their disguise check with a penalty. Not a dc 10 life science check
It is a clever trick. But I would just substitute Perception with Life Science vs. Disguise. In fact, some species that know how to fool biometric readers would get bonuses against Life Science checks.
I would refer to rules regarding biometric readers and adapt from there.
Also Microlabs, being custom scanners, I do believe is hackable.
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. . . yes, and? You aren't piercing the disguise check, you are ( most likely ) making the disguise check utterly irrelevant
Exactly. You are using a ruling to make a skill completely irrelevant. Thats a problem. Common sense should tell you that if a ysoki gets a dc 50 to look like a human.. then they look like a human. Having the +9 life science check to always know ysokis have fur and whiskers and humans don't won't help you tell them apart if you can't see the fur and whiskers
But does the custom microlab only use visual means of identification, or does it scan dna/pheromones/x-rays/other to identify it?
I don't think the lab had that much thought put into the underpinnings
Hmm, fair points. However, the other side of the coin is, logically, a scanner that provides a much more advanced functionality than the Mark 1 Eyeball really should be more effective at piercing a disguise whose primary mechanical benefit is "Resist Perception checks".
Right, but then if you're into disguises you know thats a thing and compensate somehow.
Would you let a normal identify check bypass disguises? If the answer is no, then I don't see why the biohacker's ability would work differently.
Well then, by that logic, if you're into piercing the disguises of disguised entities, you'd probably compensate for that compensation. Perhaps by developing some kind of device that doesn't rely on "Looks like a duck, must be a duck" answers.
Right, but then if you're into disguises you know thats a thing and compensate somehow.
Right, but thats what the opposed skill checks are for, rather than one skill roflcoptering another one.
A second item, this one actually serious. If a living being was disguised as an undead, or vice versa, how do you handle this as it relates to different skill use to ID these kinds of beings? Would a fantastic Physical Science check come up with "It looks undead, but you can kind of see it breathing" or something like that?
Skill check would ID the thing it looks like. If you ID a ghoul through claws and saggy skin and pupiless black eyes then the disguise addds claws contacts and a hot wax skin covering.
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BigNorseWolf brings up the main problem I have with the biohacker identify skill. It completely nullifies everything but the most outrageously high checks automatically since it not only grants an automatic 20 but also boils several different knowledges down into life or physical science which a bio hacker will almost always have maxed.
I’ll leave my general distaste for the ability aside and say that even in some of the above examples even if you don’t outright beat a given check, you’re still left with the equivalent of an automatic “something is wrong check again” if your scanner isn’t matching up with your own perception. They don’t have the exact modifiers in the bluff/disguise/sense motive tables anymore but, it’s similar to getting a free “unbelievable lie” modifier on something that is supposed to be very, very convincing (racial shapshifting abilities is what I’m thinking and what brought this all up to begin with).
Inherently, it's an ability that's supposed to let you know what you're fighting. If you're gonna counter that it should be costing the enemy something to do so.
Disguise is inherently an ability to NOT know who or possibly what you're fighting. It costs ranks, equipment, class abilities, and charisma. Its already opposed by the most common and most important/ pumped up skill in the game (perception)
I think the kit roflcoptering disguises relies on the ideas that
1) it has a DNA scan as its underpinnings and
2) we can go into the underpinnings for the scan but not for disguise.
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If you want to keep your nature hidden in a fight the skill you're looking for is called Stealth. Which is inherently a set of rules for avoiding detection by others.
So if the scanner is picking up DNA from the area you're pointing at why doesn't it roflcopter invisibility as well?
My best comparison for how to consider the custom microlab is something like a medical tricorder from Star Trek, which most certainly can pierce even surgical disguises
In star trek. When the plot demands it. This isn't a star trek game though, so saying its supposed to work like a tricorder in star trek is a huge stretch.
I'd feel it reasonable that a scan won't map your discreet features, but pick up on what your actual race, creature type, size and such is.
How though? Without detailing that you've decided it just does based on.. it just doing so.
As for a mundane disguise using a Disguise Kit or a Holoskin; their function is not to pass a detailed inspection or scan, but to prevent you from being recognized as your self at a glance
Absolutely, 100 percent hell to the no. It is not just for passing at a glance. Going undercover for a while, impersonating someone else, is a staple of the genre. Disguises are meant to hold up through extended interaction, not just casual "where's that guy". You can specifically use it to walk through security.
If the scanner has some way of detecting DNA, people making disguises know about it. The solution is you put something in the disguise kit with the DNA of the thing you're disguising yourself as. 100% ysoki dander
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I would allow the microlab to assist in a few limited circumstances.
It would not work if a human was disguised as another human. Microlab would confirm human.
I would allow it to assist say if a human made a quick disguise of pointy ears, solid color contacts and a blonde wig and claimed to be Legolas the elf. So while the disguise check may beat the biohacker's
perception check I have no problem saying to the biohacker "Yes that is Legolas the elf, however the readings on your microlab indicate something is off."
If the human put on a ysoki costume and said Hi I am Bob the rat. Even though the biohacker fails the perception check to pierce this poor disguise (biohacker needs to invest in some perception ranks) the microlab would indicate that in fact that is a human standing before him.
Now if the human is some sort of deep infiltrator who has been given a disguise in a lab with implants and what not then I would say the microlab would be of little use as the disguise would include things to foil a scanner / microlab.
If disguise self or similar magic is used then that nullifies the microlab altogether.
Have not run across this yet, but it is how I think I would rule it in my games.
P.S. The "but they would know they'd need to counter it!" argument can be extended to the other side as well, "the biohacker knows disguises are a thing and would account for that in how the scan is set up", and then back and forth ad nauseum. I don't think it's an entirely unfair thing to mention though
Except the rules already tell you how to resolve trying to see through a disguise: its with a perception check. I think its pretty much the definition of unfair to ignore than and give one side more shots of roflcoptering the other in the arms race. If you tell the player in advance they're going to get the DNA. If you don't you're springing a surprise ruling on them.
I'd rule that getting specific deep details like matching DNA and other deep disguises (fooling medical scans for skeletal structure or specific internal organs, for example) requires more than a 20 Cr Disguise kit and 10-30 minutes.
We're talking about a setting where I can get thors magic returning hammer for 200 credits. Futzing with a level 1 piece of technology for 20 credits is entirely reasonable.
Would you let a normal identify check bypass disguises? If the answer is no, then I don't see why the biohacker's ability would work differently.
This would be the basis of my ruling too. The biohacker ability replaces a recall knowledge check, so if a successful disguise prevents recall knowledge of the hidden, actual species (which I think it does) then it would also prevent the biohacker’s ability from working properly.
We're talking about a setting where I can get thors magic returning hammer for 200 credits. Futzing with a level 1 piece of technology for 20 credits is entirely reasonable.
Not in an economy where 1 dose of Advil is a 150 credits.
The economic system is far to wonky to use it as a basis of a sensible argument.
It is freely available to anyone willing to invest in it, compared to an ability available to one class.
This keeps coming up as a basic assertion of this thread but... I disagree.
Nothing about the biohacker's micro lab suggests that it behaves differently than any other identify check. Yes, they use Life/Physical science instead of Life/Mysticism and yes they get to take 20 on the check, but other than that? You're still just attempting a skill check to identify the creature and that's a concept that already exists in the rules.
The OP, and now this poster, keep attributing all these special effects and utilities to the microlab's identify check but as far as I can tell, none of this functionality actually exists in the text of the class feature.
As a GM, I would let the scan glitch because it cannot get a good reading of a disguised target and let the PC become aware that they need to get closer to get a better analysis, prompting a new perception check to pierce the disguise.
thats the same as blowing the disguise check as most PCs will be using high velocity plumbumium bad guy detectors at that point
Yeah, I think if you don’t give the biohacker the result consistent with the species the target is disguised as you’re basically making biohacking an auto-disguise detector (why else is the scan ‘glitching’?)
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I will agree that someone who's amazingly good at identifying various species and creatures having no ability based on that knowledge to help tell the difference between a fake and the real thing is kind of a strange gap in the rules, but I still don't think biohackers getting some freebie to penetrate disguises is a good idea and it's definitely not part of the actual rules for microlabs (or identify checks, which again is what a microlab is letting you make).
The GM has to rule out player knowledge for their characters knowledge. If players fail their perception check to pierce the disguise, the result is that they cannot Identify the creature. No rerolls, so players characters must act accordingly.As a GM, I would let the scan glitch because it cannot get a good reading of a disguised target and let the PC become aware that they need to get closer to get a better analysis, prompting a new perception check to pierce the disguise.thats the same as blowing the disguise check as most PCs will be using high velocity plumbumium bad guy detectors at that point
That's great for a decent group of players that will separate in character knowledge and player knowledge, but I don't think it's a good idea when dealing with the average player.
The average player will be suspicious until the end of time if they ever get a 'glitch' on their microlab that doesn't have any rules for glitching.
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Alternatively, one could use the micro lab to function as intended when identifying disguised creatures
Which would be to NOT use the microlab at all since identification checks aren't meant to bypass disguises
You are the arbiter of you group, so you know what works best with them. That said, rules are guides. You don’t have to roll with them when they don’t make sense in certain situations.
Going by that vein, this is the rules forum, and not the advice forum. A microlab gives you a bonus to identify checks. An identify check does not pierce disguises. It does not give you a hint that the target is disguised.
You literally cut my sentence in half and replied to that, so for full context:
You're arguing that the micro lab is intended to cut through disguises when there's no evidence of that. That context was kept. There is absolutely zero evidence at all that the micro lab is intended to do that by providing a bonus to a skill that doesn't counteract disguises. Nothing else you said changes that or is irrelevant to my point. You can't just shout "context" and have it mean anything.
Furthermore, A higher DC is completely irrelevant when the DC starts at 10 and you're rocking a +20.
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Read again. I also said that you could leave out the name of the creature.
I don't need to read it again. You need to have a revelant objection.
You don't.
That could work like this. So that when the Biohacker scans the dragon disguised as an orc, he gets for example 2 pieces of information. The creature has a breath weapon and high fortitude saves, but what you see is an orc. You are still preserving the disguise and allowing for biohacker to learn things.
No. You are in no way, shape. or form preserving the disguise here.
The problem is not that I need to read what you said again. The problem isn't that i misquoted your idea. Please stop accusing me of not reading and disingenuous arguing when your ideas are this at odds with themselves.The entire point of disguise is not to draw attention to yourself. Whether you're showing up as a dragon or a creature with a breath weapon and DR /magic on a creature that isn't supposed to have that, your cover is blown. This is not a compromise. This is the lab roflcoptering the disguise. The party will proceed pretty much the same way regardless of your answer or "dragon". There may be a technical difference. I don't care. There is no functional difference. The party is either going to investigate further or start up with the fight they same way they would if they'd seen through the disguise.
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After reading the microlab again, I am absolutely going to allow it.
Lets look at what the microlab says.
As long as you have your custom microlab, as a move action you can target a creature within your line of sight and within the microlab’s range (60 feet at 1st level) and attempt a special skill check to identify it. If the creature is living, this is a Life Science check. If it is unliving, it’s a Physical Science check. The DC of this check is determined by the creature’s rarity, as presented on the Creature Rarity table on page 133 of the Core Rulebook. You can attempt this check untrained regardless of the DC, and you always treat your die roll result as a 20.
So it states you can target a creature. There are no listed exclusions or conditions to this check other than range.
So a dragon disguised as an orc is still a dragon.
A ysoki disguised as a human is still a ysoki.
The creature did not change.
Disguise is opposed by perception as per the perception and disguise rules. Disguise is not opposed by a microlab's ability.
RAW the microlab has no interaction with the disguise rule. This function is purely to identify a creature using science.
Until a FAQ says other wise I am going to have it function as written.
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So why don't all identify creature checks identify other creatures, making disguise completely useless to go across species?
You can use certain skills to identify creatures. The skill used to identify each creature type is listed below and in the individual skill descriptions. A successful skill check allows you to recall a useful piece of information about a specific creature, such as its special powers or vulnerabilities. For every 5 points by which the result of your check exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information. You can attempt untrained skill checks to identify a creature if the DC is 10 or less. You can take 20 on a check to identify a creature, but only if you have a means of performing research, such as access to an information network like a planetary infosphere or a downloaded data set (see page 430); this typically takes 2 minutes.
The scanner doesn't change anything about how the ID check works.
The raw for a disguise is its opposed by a perception check after calling attention to yourself. It's not opposed against a flat DC.
Yes I am well aware of the rules you state.
The microlab is an extraordinary ability not a skill.
The microlab is what is doing the work here not the biohacker as the attempt can be made untrained and gets an automatic roll of a 20.
That is far better than a skill.
Like I said until a FAQ comes along to say otherwise I am going to allow the microlab to be used exactly how it is written.