|
How are GMs ruling the feat Bonded Animal?
The Rules Forum is a bit of a mixed bag with this one. Most posters say it falls in the hands of the GM to determine what's allowed in their Campaign, but even then, when you get into the mechanics of the feat it's extremely ambiguous.
1) are GMs allowing only the Animals from the CRB? Or any source? What CR are you allowing?
2) the animal doesn't gain the Minion Trait. Are GMs ruling that it's always Frightened at the start of combat?
3) it's a Downtime activity to use the feat. Should GMs sign off on what animal was acquired?
4) the animal is helpful to the one who bonded with it. What attitude are GMs giving it towards the rest of the party?
For context, our 6th Level Druid succeeded at his Nature check for last game's Downtime and wants a CR 9 Roc for the game we're about to start.
The GM hasn't posted yet but I'm curious whether this has come up at other tables. I'm personally worried the thing's going to get targeted by confusion or something and TPK the party, but beyond our game, I also want to see how I should rule it for my tables.
Theoretically a 2nd Level Rogue could even succeed at bringing a Roc to their next game, and that's something I'm sure wouldn't fly at most tables.
|
In PFS, I don't think this is allowable.
The guide lists what can be done in downtime. Bonded Animal and Train Animal are not on the list.
Therefore, I don't think they're available in PFS.
Which is maybe the way it should be. Allowing animals into the game IS probably something that needs GM buy in. And could definitely become an issue in Organized Play.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In PFS, I don't think this is allowable.
The guide lists what can be done in downtime. Bonded Animal and Train Animal are not on the list.
Therefore, I don't think they're available in PFS.
Which is maybe the way it should be. Allowing animals into the game IS probably something that needs GM buy in. And could definitely become an issue in Organized Play.
Then why make the option legal if you're just going to have a backdoor ban on it?
|
|
The guide lists what can be done in downtime. Bonded Animal and Train Animal are not on the list.
I hadn't considered that possibility. Might be why the question hasn't been discussed before.
So you're saying that the only Downtime options available in Society are:
1) Earn Income
2) Crafting
3) Retraining
4) and Chronicle-granted Downtime activities?
You would think that Bonded Animal would then be restricted like the Connections feat is.
Replacing a dead Animal Companion (7 days) would also be unavailable to Society players.
|
|
Where did the druid find a roc to make friends with?
Looks like you need the actual animal to make friends with.
And when this came up last time over in the Rules Forum, that's how I answered, too. Your Level 2 Rogue couldn't just whistle from the gates of Korvosa and summon a Roc to them.
But lots of that sort of stuff is handwaved in Society already, like Animal Companions in general, or roleplaying requirements for organizations.
Has anyone else had this come up at their table?
|
|
Let's try this again:
1) are GMs allowing only the Animals from the CRB? Or any source? What CR are you allowing?
Any animal the character has.
the animal doesn't gain the Minion Trait. Are GMs ruling that it's always Frightened at the start of combat?
That's a rules question not a PFS question.
it's a Downtime activity to use the feat. Should GMs sign off on what animal was acquired?
This feat does not acquire animals.
the animal is helpful to the one who bonded with it. What attitude are GMs giving it towards the rest of the party?
Not PFS specific, may I point you to the rules forum again.
---
A character can use Downtime in a variety of ways, including the Crafting, Earn Income, and retraining options in the Pathfinder Core
Rulebook.
The guide does not limit your downtime actions, just gives you a baseline list. Other feats/powers etc can give you additional options such as reviving an animal companion or making a bond.
|
|
Well, again, while I would normally agree with you on being directed to the Rules Forum (I'm pretty much the poster child of that), everything about this feat is left to GM interpretation, so if we're already discussing half the feat, we may as well be on board for the whole thing.
So your argument is "access".
Since it's a Downtime activity, even if you encountered/subdued an animal during an adventure, it's gone by the time you pursue Downtime, right?
And what happens if two characters want the same Roc?
EDIT: or, what happens if you fail the Nature check? Can you just keep trying after each Chronicle, keeping the animal in a cage the whole time?
|
|
Access is a specific OP term and not my argument.
I'm saying you need the actual animal. So even in non OP you'd still need a roc.
As what one might call a second order problem to that issue though is
OP does have rules for how you get things (access) , and currently features no way to acquire one that I know of.
Encountering/subduing one in a scenario would not change that.
|
|
The guide lists what can be done in downtime. Bonded Animal and Train Animal are not on the list.I hadn't considered that possibility. Might be why the question hasn't been discussed before.
So you're saying that the only Downtime options available in Society are:
1) Earn Income
2) Crafting
3) Retraining
4) and Chronicle-granted Downtime activities?
I'm not at all comfortable with my answer but yes, that IS what I'm saying.
"Certain other activities may be available depending on boons or other circumstances as described in the adventure."
I think that means that ONLY these activities are PFS legal
Replacing a dead Animal Companion (7 days) would also be unavailable to Society players.
I'm sure that there are other examples of why this is a REALLY bad answer. But I still think that it IS the PFS answer.
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's no listed price for a roc, so it's not something you can buy, and thus you can't have one, so you can't use bonded animal on it.
Bonded animal does not magically create a creature for you to bond with - you use the feat to bond with a creature you already "have".
Animals you can acquire are listed on page 294 CRB, or in nethys under "equipment -> Services -> Animals". If you happen to -find- a roc during an adventure, you'll lose it at the end of the adventure, just like you lose everything else you've found, so that's not an option either.
Options are the dogs, horses and ponies listed, unless you have access to buying other, more exotic animals.
2 and 4 need an response from the OP team though, and as for 3, yeah, GM should note it into the downtime or notes section.
Although 2 probably goes as the rules say:
"When combat begins, they become frightened 4 and fleeing as long as they’re frightened. If you successfully Command your Animal using Nature, you can keep it from fleeing, though this doesn’t remove its frightened condition. If the animal is attacked or damaged, it returns to frightened 4 and fleeing, with the same exceptions."
Except for warhorses and warponies:
"Warhorses and warponies are combat trained. They don’t become frightened or fleeing during encounters in this way."
|
Venture-Agent, Online—VTT
|
In the general application, which has nothing to do with society rules, the animal doesn't have to be purchased, but you need to be able to spend 7 days of downtime interacting with it somehow. It's society rules handling downtime outside of narrative, unlike a normal campaign, that makes this a weird grey area that really could use a written campaign ruling (though I would expect that ruling to probably be that the animal must be purchased in PFS).
|
|
Guess we should create a list of potential campaign clarifications regarding this feat, and the situation in general:
1) is the list of Downtime activities in the Guide exhaustive?
2) are animals (or monsters in general) available if PCs if they have an ability that calls for them?
3) what animals, specifically, can Bonded Animal be used with, if Bonded Animal can be used at all (depending on #1's answer).
4) if the list of Downtime activities is not exhaustive, should it be expanded with options like Train Animal? Or should it just be open to any options that are Society legal?
|
|
Heh. Almost 1 year to the date. I believe that Druid is now level 9. Although I haven't adventured with him in some time.
Continuing a conversation from an off-topic thread:
Yeah, the only recent case I can think of where I felt the need to bring it up immediately as a player was a case where someone thought that the Bonded Animal feat provided any animal of choice to bond with, and that a level 4 character could have a level 9 roc just by having made a Nature check in downtime.
I adventured with such a character, actually. And before that he had a Smilodon.
A Roc is Common. There's nothing that currently suggests you can't choose one.
But I do wish there was a Campaign limitation on such powerful options. Maybe a CR cap based on Character Level.
The rarity isn't the limiting factor, though. Using the feat requires you to spend time with an animal that is friendly or helpful to you. Nothing suggests that it provides free animals that are not available for purchase in society to do that with. Not even vaguely.
That's a troublesome rabbit hole for a GM to impose on a high level character, since you can't even buy a horse that's "friendly or helpful". But if IIRC, that character was a Druid with Wild Empathy, which should render that "requirement" moot.
|
Venture-Agent, Online—VTT
|
The Core Rulebook Errata also included the Bonded Animal feat. Here's what the FAQ/Errata page has to say:
Page 259: Bonded Animal didn't explain the logistics of bonding the animal directly, leading a small number of people to be unsure that it was necessary to locate and interact with the animal to bond with it. To make it explicit, change the second sentence to "You can spend 7 days of downtime regularly interacting with a normal animal (…) that is friendly or helpful to you."
From that, I think it's clear that providing animals to bond with is not a function of the feat.
As for Wild Empathy rendering requirements moot, I can see how you'd read it as "this takes care if making the horse friendly" but I dont see how you read it as "this takes care of making the horse exist".
|
|
I disagree anything is "clear".
I'm just looking for a universal solution to a character option that, depending on the GM, ranges from "literally useless" to "scenario breaking". Table Variation is normally fine, but this needs a Campaign clarification or limitation.
With that background in mind, If I encountered a player with Bonded Animal, I would probably exercise my GM ability to create an enjoyable environment for everyone at the table by limiting the CR of the creature they could Bond with.
But their next GM could say "nothing", and the next GM after that could say "anything", and that's just frustrating for everyone.
|
OP does have rules for how you get things (access) , and currently features no way to acquire one that I know of.Continuing with the current example, nothing tells us a Roc is "uncommon".
From the Roc entry in the Bestiary:
Particularly skilled druids or rangers might capture and train a roc to serve as a flying mount or hunting companion, though examples of such an incredible feat of domestication are few and far between.
The easiest way to rear a roc is to do so from the moment it hatches, since the chick imprints on the first creature it sees. Acquiring a roc egg is by no means an easy feat, though, and is often a death sentence for the would-be egg-snatcher.
That actually sounds like "Domesticated Roc" should be on the *rare* list if anything.
|
|
I would say that given that there is no way to carry over an animal from one scenario to another, and there exists no mechanism for acquiring an animal outside of a scenario, (Other than the purchased animals list, which is going to be useless beyond 6th+ level.) that bonded animal is going to suffer as a feat until we get a book with a list of higher level animals. (Grand Bazaar maybe?)
That said, since this is an area that is:
Not currently covered by PF rules
Probably *will* be covered by *future* PF rules.
There probably won't be a PFS specific ruling, because they don't want to have to change it when the new book comes out.
Certainly allowing a level 6 PC to have a *rideable* CR9 Roc for free would be allowing a level 2 skill feat to completely outclass an entire *line* of Class Feats and giving the character something an Animal Companion class couldn't even get at level 12.
I would limit it to *At Most* creatures that have a CR 1 lower than the PC, and probably limit it to commonly domesticated animals in the area the PCs start in.
|
|
You need a way to have the animal in front of you and not eat you.
You cannot even hand-wave the RP/task requirements of archetypes (you must spend AcP to represent the time/effort) like PFS(1)'s handling of prestige class RP/task requirements, so I would not believe that you could hand-wave bonding a Tyrannosaurus (or any other non-domesticated beast for sale in the market) because you tried for years before you became a PFS agent and eventually "rolled a natural 20" in the past.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
|
There's no listed price for a roc, so it's not something you can buyIs this animal something you *have* to buy?
The feat makes no mention of that, is why I ask.
Indeed, the ambiguity of where the animal comes from is the main reason why I started this thread.
Yes, it is something you have to buy *Unless something else says you acquire it from elsewhere*. How else would you have the animal between adventures to bond with it? Stuff found in scenarios disappear at the end of the scenario.
Just like being able to swing a sword doesn't magically make a sword appear in your hand - you need to acquire it somehow, and for PFS, acquiring stuff is done by purchasing it if you have access to it, or some other effect saying that you have it.Is the feat pretty bad? Yes, like many of the skill feats, it's borderline useless.
Does it have some uses? Yes, for example if you want to ride a horse in a combat most of the time, but can't or don't want to pick up an actual animal companion.
|
Is the feat pretty bad? Yes, like many of the skill feats, it's borderline useless.
Only within the scope of org play*. In a home campaign, skill feats are as effective as the GM wants them to be. The Bonded Animal feat can be exceptionally effective, if not downright unbalancing.
*I know we're in the org play forum and should assume that is strictly the limitations we are playing by, but too often blanket statements are misunderstood by readers who don't insert the proper qualifiers if/when the poster omits them.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes. In the right campaign, any of the skill feats could be useful.
Why does PFS(2) allow a feat if you can't get as much use out of it as you could in the correct style of home game? I figure because they don't have a reason to not allow it. That they did allow it does not mean that they expect it to be particularly good as a choice in 4-hour scenario-based Organized Play or grant things beyond normal (like Tompaa said, taking Weapon Proficiency to gain proficiency in an advanced weapon does not instantly grant me that weapon for free).
|
|
Honestly, I'm fine with this being table variation. If a player wants to use it responsibly, I'm enthusiastic about helping make it happen.
If a player wants to trivialize the scenario because...they can. I will get waves of pleasure burying that feat under mechanics red tape.
*Was the roc in the scenario that you played? Ah well, unfortunately there is no mechanics for downtime that dictate changing an animal's attitude. That is only for exploration.
*Where did you find the roc? Did you have to travel to a place where they would be? Ah well, the feat says that you have to spend 7 days influencing so unless you travelled one day or less, it isn't feasible. Do note that travelling has you go X miles per day.
*Did you buy the roc?
*Unfortunately, the roc following you around on your adventures is "at the expense of the helpful creature's goals or quality of life." So, congrats, you have a roc that is helpful toward you somewhere on Golarion. You are making friends.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If a player wants to trivialize the scenario because...they can. I will get waves of pleasure burying that feat under mechanics red tape.
In all honesty, I think it fairer, quicker and less likely to really piss the player off to just say "No, this feat doesn't work in PFS, at least at my table."
|
|
True. But, there is a very high likelihood that there is an intentionality to bringing a CR 9 creature to a tier 6ish scenario. An intentionality that I enthusiastically oppose. Such players are unlikely to have fun at my tables and I am very okay with that because they have an opportunity to play with many other GMs who may allow it.
On the other hand, if the rest of the table is okay with it, I'd probably let it pass.
Also, it seems more fair to those who want to use the feat within reason that I don't give a blanket no.
|
|
Unfortunately, there is a contingent of org play GMs who feel that acquiescing to players is the ultimate rule and they will ignore rules and allow exploitation to persist in the attempt to make everyone happy. Then when that player sits at the table of a less permissive GM, they get mad and say things like "my other GMs let me do it" or report you to leadership because you were a bad GM. YMMV
Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
|
Level 6 Druid using Wild Empathy on a Roc.
So the druid needs to Make an Impression on the Roc.
Roc starts at Hostile, but lets the druid do it's thing.
With max Cha, +14 Diplomacy vs a DC 26 Will, that's a 40% chance to succeed, and 5% to crit.
Then, since the impression only lasts until the end of the social interaction, you need to continually make impressions on the Roc for 7 whole days to make sure it wont eat you. A single failure will result in instant death. Lets say you make a check once per hour, which results in 168 checks, at a 45% chance each time to succeed. This is a 5.49x10^-59 chance to work, or a 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000549% chance
So no, this is not statistically possible.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is not quite as bad as that. Unlike PF1, you can attempt social checks multiple times, and can stack multiple successes. (Within reasonable limits set by the GM.)
You can also get at least +3 with circumstance and item bonuses.
So +17 vs DC 26. And 3 chances to get 2 "successes"
But honestly even being able to find a Roc available for free seems unduly generous.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
|
Like everything else found during an adventure but not accounted for in the chronicle sheet, the roc disappears at the end of the scenario so there's no chance to use downtime to tame it.
Likewise, you can't "find" a roc during downtime just like you can't "find" a magical sword during downtime.