Draco18s, the quote from the book you selected proves Krispy's claim, not your own, to be true - because "completely unobtainable" and "you can get it from a particular part of the world" are directly contradictory.
Again, why I think the "uncommon" tag is poorly defined (I have made this statement at least once, if not twice, in other threads). There are two kinds of "uncommon" things you can't get at all, ever, unless the book explicitly states you can (this covers most focus spells and several other class-feature related bits) and "things that are simply just not always available, but you can still get them."
We don't know how that split applies to various items found in various adventure paths. Do you have to go through that adventure to get the item, or can you just have it at chargen if you're above the item's level?
We don't know.
And there absolutely are GMs who's stance is "if it isn't common, you cannot buy it, at all, ever" because the rules say that they CAN do that.
We don't know.You say that, but I've yet to see an item that is uncommon and not know when/how I'd allow that item into one of my campaigns.
Jawbreaker Shield.
Reforging Shield.Nethysian Bulwark.
Shield of the Unified Legion.
Bladed Diabolo.
All the other circus weapons.
Would these be appropriate purchases for a campaign you created yourself set in the world of Galorion but which is not a prewritten adventure?
Are you making that decision because you are the GM or because a book told you that the players have access?
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While I do not deny that all roleplay is based on player and GM interaction / communication much of this is linked to either direct or reverse psychology. For example what do you think is more likely to happen?
1) GM granting access to an uncommon item?
2) GM denying access to a common item?
Yes, we all know that in theory all GM's are supposed to always make informed decisions of what they think is best for their respective gaming groups overall enjoyment (and that of course includes the GM's themselves).
However - and this is based solely on personal experience, I do not have any scientific truth - in reality things often seem to occur different.
One example would be the uncommon = better misjudgement (looking at you Gnomish Flickmace), which can easily lead to an indiscriminate general ban / severe restriction of uncommon items for fear of them breaking the GM's game.
That having said this is just to serve as a reminder that despite all good intentions to not dismiss the human factor. There is a reason why e.g. communism works fine on paper but did not work well in reality.
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If the new content is providing shields with the traits people want (IE, functional blocking stats worse than a Sturdy Shield, but with other utility) and the only issue is that these items are Uncommon then it seems to me, that a solution to peoples concerns has been provided, and its just on their GM to implement it.
Be your own solution here - and stop standing in your own way.
I suspect a lot of, if not most new content will end up with an Uncommon tag. Players and GMs are going to need to come to terms on this, because the designers of the game seem to heavily distinguish between Uncommon (harder to get, and limited by the narrative) and Rare (really hard to get, probably in the vein that people are assuming Uncommon is in).
I agree that the core Rulebook seems to make Uncommon very hard to get without GM fiat, but that is a separate issue in the book. The inferred intent with Uncommon items seems more and more to be that they should be harder to get than Common items, but far from impossible if you actively seek them out.
I suspect a lot of, if not most new content will end up with an Uncommon tag. Players and GMs are going to need to come to terms on this, because the designers of the game seem to heavily distinguish between Uncommon (harder to get, and limited by the narrative) and Rare (really hard to get, probably in the vein that people are assuming Uncommon is in).
Yes, I don't think this can be emphasized enough. I expected the vast majority of content outside of the core line of books to come with Uncommon tags to help the GM manage content.
It's best to get our collective heads around the idea now rather than try to hobble the Uncommon tag, and assume it means "niche".
With the uncommon talk I'll just look back to the circus weapons thread. What was asked was if the Circus AP should allow players access to Circus [uncommon] things by default. And GM's were livid at the thought of players being told out right by a book/dev that players had access to these items. It was infringing on their right as a GM to have the kind of game they wanted without these silly items. Items based around the theme of the AP being run.
I tell my players to ask me before picking anything uncommon. I have no problem saying no when it doesn't suit the game I will be running but I am also pretty OK with allowing uncommon stuff that fits. Then again, I also freely add, remove or modify stuff as I see fit.
To paraphrase Matt Colville, the map is not the territory, the recipe is not the meal and the rules are not the game.
Which is why I say again, if other special material/magic shields not being sturdy is a problem, just fix that. Super easy.
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and I am the GM so I'm the one that decides.
And you just made my point for me:
I, as a player, cannot rely on those options existing.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The inferred intent with Uncommon items seems more and more to be that they should be harder to get than Common items, but far from impossible if you actively seek them out.
That is actually completely incorrect. Devs have said multiple times they tagged many things as uncommon to give cover to DMs that simply didnt want them in their games. This is particularly true of certain spells but also true of splat that comes later that DMs just dont want to deal with. The only other type of "Uncommon" is stuff that is locked behind class features or feats (a-la focus spells, etc). There are some exceptions (like racial weapons which could follow your "hard to get" notion) but even those are subject to GM fiat.
As far as stuff from adventures, they have stated that they wanted you to look at a PCs character sheet and see what adventures they went on. "Oh, "Staff Acrobat", he must be playing Extinction Curse." Therefore, no, we wouldn't be able to just nab stuff from wherever (from their intent, anyways).
The inferred intent with Uncommon items seems more and more to be that they should be harder to get than Common items, but far from impossible if you actively seek them out.That is actually completely incorrect. Devs have said multiple times they tagged many things as uncommon to give cover to DMs that simply didnt want them in their games. This is particularly true of certain spells but also true of splat that comes later that DMs just dont want to deal with. The only other type of "Uncommon" is stuff that is locked behind class features or feats (a-la focus spells, etc). There are some exceptions (like racial weapons) but even those are subject to GM fiat.
Which is, again, why I feel that there should have been two tags for it. "Uncommon" which represented a sort of rarity ("these hard-to-find X can be difficult to track down, see [acquiring rare items rules]") or location aspect ("this item is common in Osiron, acquiring one in another region may be difficult to track down, see [acquiring rare items rules]") and another tag for class feat/feature things (going to call it "Special Access").
Anything that should be completely under gm fiat is what Rare is for. That's why Rare exists. There is nothing wrong with the Rare tag.
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The inferred intent with Uncommon items seems more and more to be that they should be harder to get than Common items, but far from impossible if you actively seek them out.That is actually completely incorrect. Devs have said multiple times they tagged many things as uncommon to give cover to DMs that simply didnt want them in their games. This is particularly true of certain spells but also true of splat that comes later that DMs just dont want to deal with. The only other type of "Uncommon" is stuff that is locked behind class features or feats (a-la focus spells, etc). There are some exceptions (like racial weapons) but even those are subject to GM fiat.Which is, again, why I feel that there should have been two tags for it. "Uncommon" which represented a sort of rarity ("these hard-to-find X can be difficult to track down, see [acquiring rare items rules]") or location aspect ("this item is common in Osiron, acquiring one in another region may be difficult to track down, see [acquiring rare items rules]") and another tag for class feat/feature things (going to call it "Special Access").
Anything that should be completely under gm fiat is what Rare is for. That's why Rare exists. There is nothing wrong with the Rare tag.
Everything is completely under GM fiat.
Everything is completely under GM fiat.
Well obviously, but that's not what I meant, and you know it.
The GM could make players roll 3d6 instead of 1d20 and that'd be fine by the non-rules of GM fiat.
Ya, what we are talking about is what cover does a new GM have to say no to stuff, basically. Or, what is the standard table expectation. The expectation is the novice GM can say no uncommon stuff without players getting all huffy puffy.
Ya, what we are talking about is what cover does a new GM have to say no to stuff, basically. Or, what is the standard table expectation. The expectation is the novice GM can say no uncommon stuff without players getting all huffy puffy.
So a GM could disallow a cleric access to his diety's weapon, because it's uncommon?
Ya, what we are talking about is what cover does a new GM have to say no to stuff, basically. Or, what is the standard table expectation. The expectation is they can say no uncommon stuff without players getting all huffy puffy.
My group has handled Uncommon stuff in two ways. First, all players get 1 Uncommon Token. You can turn in your Uncommon Token to grant yourself "Access" to something Uncommon. Aeon Stone, the LVL 20 Druid feat Apex Companion, an Uncommon language, a ritual, a spell, a weapon, etc. (We don't really care about Uncommon Ancestries, so no uncommon token is needed for that. Play your Leshy all you want!)
This removes the Uncommon tag for you, as if it had an Access. You still select the thing as normal, but it's no longer Uncommon. A fighter can't use it to get that LVL 20 Druid feat, since he can't select it even if it were common.
The second method is, simply looking for the thing in question. As a downtime activity, you can spend the day basically hunting for the uncommon thing in question and rolling a Diplomacy, Society, or appropriate Lore check. A critical success is needed for a Rare item. The DC increases when you succeed in finding something Uncommon, making it harder to find a bunch of uncommon items in the same city.
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Draco, I get when you are saying. You want there to be another tag for "Feature Locked" and another for "Hard to Get" but, frankly, I think this game has enough tags as it is and could do with a culling of excess tags and rules cruft, honestly. Reading the bestiary is an exercise in frustration, for example - especially crap like the Gelatinous Cube, where I have to flip back and forth on crap like Engulf and the like.
The rulebook is big enough as it is (frankly too big) and there is way too much granularity in many parts of it (particularly around skill actions and basic functionality being locked behind a plethora of skill feats). I for one am happy Paizo chose not to add more than what they did.
At the end of the day, Uncommon is there. The book gives some guidance on how its to be used. Common sense states that feature locked Uncommon stuff from the CRB is largely allowed but everything else is something a Novice GM can say no to without getting into a parliamentary debate about it with their players. I don't need 3 more paragraphs and several more tags to figure that out.
If a GM can't be relied upon to identify material in a new book as a "needed fix" rather than "power creep," how can that GM be relied up to not mis-identify errata as "power creep" and choose to not use it just like they choose not to use a new book?
GM "That's an uncommon item I'm not allowing it." That's in the rules and how the game works like or leave it. Player expectations from reading the rules are that this can happen.
GM "I don't like the fact that the numbers were officially changed on this I'm ignoring it." This doesn't fall into GM discretion as outlined by the rules a player would know by reading them. I read a shield that has Xhp and Y Hardness if I show up to a game and the GM then tells me that those values are too high because he doesn't like it he can do it but that's not the type of discretion laid out in the rules.
Before a game starts changes to the core assumption of rules needs to be laid out so that players are aware and can make a choice if that's a game they want to be in. Uncommon items have a core assumption that it's GM call. Stat values of items have a core assumption of what those values are.
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Guys, come on, GM power is not the relevant point here. It can vary so much that we are best to just ignore it - and just because you're a good GM that doesn't mean anything had changed, and having a bad one doesn't change it either. Read the rules like you don't have a GM - because that's the only way we're going to get any consistency with the rules.
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The Core Rulebook is really explicit that GMs should allow Uncommon things by default if the PCs work for them. To quote the book:
By default, a character who tries hard enough might eventually find an uncommon option, whereas a rare option is always a special reward.
The game and world assume that Uncommon stuff can mostly be acquired with a bit of effort. GMs can certainly change that, as they can change anything, but it is not the default assumption.
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"might"
Edit: an other choice quote
"and uncommon spells typically cost at least 100% more, if you can find someone who knows them at all."
Here is one that DMW only quotes a piece of (but not the best bits). Right before the quoted section it states:
"At the start of the campaign, communicate your preferred expectations on rarity to the players. Unless you decide otherwise, the players can choose from any common options they qualify for, plus any uncommon options granted by their character choices."
No, sorry, they cannot just find any uncommon options. They find the uncommon options they qualify for or the ones I deem appropriate.
Edit: Again, it explicitly states the default there. Uncommon stuff not gained through discrete options is clearly not listed.
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"might"
Sure. It immediately follows a section on discussing rarity assumptions with your players before the game, and it definitely leaves plenty of wiggle room for the GM.
But the default remains that, generally, PCs are expected to have access to a fair bit of Uncommon stuff, and blanket bans of it are not the expected gameplay experience or the one Paizo is designing content based on.
Sorry, DMW, you are incorrect. You have access to uncommon stuff you qualify for (through discrete character options - ala Inspire Courage, etc) or that the DM allows. All uncommon stuff is not fair game by default.
Which again leads back to uncommon shields can't be counted on unless your GM is willing to go over them with you before the game and several times before the level you would likely get it to make sure they are still okay with it. And if they suddenly decide they aren't back to either no blocking or no effects.
The Core Rulebook is really explicit that GMs should allow Uncommon things by default if the PCs work for them. To quote the book:
By default, a character who tries hard enough might eventually find an uncommon option, whereas a rare option is always a special reward.The game and world assume that Uncommon stuff can mostly be acquired with a bit of effort. GMs can certainly change that, as they can change anything, but it is not the default assumption.
How much effort is "a bit"?
What are the rules regarding what a player needs to do? General guidelines, like traveling to a particular region, or doing some research at a library, finding a smith to craft it, anything will suffice.
The "bit of effort" is entirely up to the GM. This is assuming the GM decides any amount of effort even makes it possible (ie "might" or the quote on uncommon spells on page 294).
Again, the only thing we can assume is that common options and uncommon options granted by specific character choices are available. Other options cannot be assumed and are by definition not available by default.
Even these assumptions are subject to DM fiat one way or the other. Thats the section where it states that the DM could make everything available from the get go or to allow some stuff with a bit of effort. Neither of these things are assumed to be the case by default, however.
Again, the only thing we can assume is that common options and uncommon options granted by specific character choices are available. Other options cannot be assumed and are by definition not available by default.
Nope sorry according to you own quote we can't even assume that
"At the start of the campaign, communicate your preferred expectations on rarity to the players. Unless you decide otherwise, the players can choose from any common options they qualify for, plus any uncommon options granted by their character choices."
Again, the only thing we can assume is that common options and uncommon options granted by specific character choices are available. Other options cannot be assumed and are by definition not available by default.
Nope sorry according to you own quote we can't even assume that
"At the start of the campaign, communicate your preferred expectations on rarity to the players. Unless you decide otherwise, the players can choose from any common options they qualify for, plus any uncommon options granted by their character choices."
Incorrect. "Unless you decide otherwise" means its incumbent upon the DM to change the default. If the DM does not actively change it, then the default is set - thus it can be assumed.
So, once again, we can assume two things:
1. Common stuff is available
2. Uncommon stuff you gain from character options is available
Other items cannot be assumed are thus unavailable unless a DM states otherwise (either at the beginning of the adventure our during the course of it). Similarly, the DM may decide uncommon options typically gained through character options or certain common items are unavailable but it is incumbent upon the DM to explicity state this.
The Core Rulebook is really explicit that GMs should allow Uncommon things by default if the PCs work for them. To quote the book:
By default, a character who tries hard enough might eventually find an uncommon option, whereas a rare option is always a special reward.The game and world assume that Uncommon stuff can mostly be acquired with a bit of effort. GMs can certainly change that, as they can change anything, but it is not the default assumption.How much effort is "a bit"?
What are the rules regarding what a player needs to do? General guidelines, like traveling to a particular region, or doing some research at a library, finding a smith to craft it, anything will suffice.
Age of Ashes Spoilers -
Guidance provided for if you want to allow access to Uncommon options.
Book 5 recommends, in a major trade hub, a DC 35 Diplomacy, Society, or Lore check for Uncommon items or spells, or specific rare items on a critical success. This is pretty darned easy if you have a Diplomacy specialist in your party.
Book 6 recommends players be allowed to search for them in the city its set in with a likely trivial Diplomacy check ("perhaps with a higher DC", with a base DC of 30 at level 20).
The AP itself makes all sort of uncommon stuff available.
The difficulty should be relative to your characters level, so in theory you'd need to visit a trade hub of appropriate level and make a reasonable skill check.
Again, the only thing we can assume is that common options and uncommon options granted by specific character choices are available. Other options cannot be assumed and are by definition not available by default.Nope sorry according to you own quote we can't even assume that
"At the start of the campaign, communicate your preferred expectations on rarity to the players. Unless you decide otherwise, the players can choose from any common options they qualify for, plus any uncommon options granted by their character choices."
Let me just, uh, rearrange the bolding there for you...
Let me just, uh, rearrange the bolding there for you...Again, the only thing we can assume is that common options and uncommon options granted by specific character choices are available. Other options cannot be assumed and are by definition not available by default.Nope sorry according to you own quote we can't even assume that
"At the start of the campaign, communicate your preferred expectations on rarity to the players. Unless you decide otherwise, the players can choose from any common options they qualify for, plus any uncommon options granted by their character choices."
And your point is?
So, once again, we can assume two things:
1. Common stuff is available
2. Uncommon stuff you gain from character options is availableOther items cannot be assumed are thus unavailable unless a DM states otherwise (either at the beginning of the adventure our during the course of it). Similarly, the DM may decide uncommon options typically gained through character options or certain common items are unavailable but it is incumbent upon the DM to explicity state this.
Its all there in black and white.
And your point is?
I wasn't replying to you. ;) You and I agree.
And your point is?I wasn't replying to you. ;) You and I agree.
Ah, got you
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Sorry, DMW, you are incorrect. You have access to uncommon stuff you qualify for (through discrete character options - ala Inspire Courage, etc) or that the DM allows. All uncommon stuff is not fair game by default.
You also rather definitionally have access go stuff the actual adventure gives you access to.
And, as I quoted, it's generally recommended that GMs generally make Uncommon stuff fairly available. It's not by any means universal and certainly doesn't say that a GM should definitionally allow any Uncommon option a player desires...but zero Uncommon options outside those specifically listed in character options is also not the expected way for things to be.
Other sections of the book contain phrases like "It’s best to introduce uncommon items as a reward fairly regularly..." and the APs and other adventures are certainly not shy about handing out Uncommon stuff.
All indications we have are that it's intended to be reasonably common (pun intended), just not a blanket permission.
DM advice is fine and stuff you find while adventuring is fine (all under the purview of the DM) but that is very very different from an assumption that a player can make when hitting magic mart or crafting.
Without the OK of the GM, they can't plan a character around it with any assurance, they can't save up for it and they can't make it.
Also, while the player can hope the DM may lay some uncommon stuff down, they can't assume the DM will use the stock options laid out in the CRB or what options they decide to include even if they do.
If the DM decides Detect Poison or whatever will derail his adventure, no amount of effort would compel the DM to include it. This is by design. They did this so new DMs arent pressured by players for it or made to feel like the default assumption is the spell's inclusion. They don't need to plan an adventure around it. The devs were very clear why options like this were made uncommon. Similarly, if the DM just plain doesn't want Hobgoblin PCs, he doesn't need to unlock that option. This is by design.
The same is true of all uncommon stuff not unlocked by class options.
The way it is written, the DM can select which uncommon option he chooses to opt in to on a case-by-case basis. By default, none are simply available.
It also hinders creating characters of a higher level.
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The way it is written, the DM can select which uncommon option he chooses to opt in to on a case-by-case basis. By default, none are simply available.
And the default assumption is that some Uncommon options will be available, as per the GM's discretion.
The default assumption is not that the GM will restrict access to all Uncommon items. The assumption is that they will determine what is available and when, not that they are preventing access to them in general.
It also hinders creating characters of a higher level.
*Shrug* That depends on the GM and the players. I think PF2 leaves quite a few options for players using just default assumptions. Far more than most rpgs.
Having the line between uncommon and common is great since that gives the DM the dials he needs to better set the tone for the campaign from levels 1-20. This helps both new DMs and new players since its easier to get into the game. Ya, once you get a feel for it, you can peel that back a bit.
I think it also helps dialogue a bit more. In most campaigns, I tell my players, hey, just run that uncommon stuff by me first. I'm good with it most of the time. But, hey, sometimes I'm not. Its fine because that leads to real dialogue and compromise.
But, YMMV.
The default assumption is not that the GM will restrict access to all Uncommon items. The assumption is that they will determine what is available and when, not that they are preventing access to them in general.
The stuff in the book is basically: "Hey, you may want to toss them some cool spells and loot they can't normally get on their own. Maybe they can quest for it or something. Its up to you if you include it or not. Here are some suggestions."
Anywho... Going back to the topic of the thread...
This is how I would do sturdier shields: LINK.
I just kinda spit balled it real quick. The shields under level 4 may be problematic. But those afterwards should be fine.
This is just the special material shields. Doing the special one off shields would take a bit more messing around.
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Data, I simply turned "Sturdy" into a Shield rune that can be placed on other shields, including ones with other abilities or made of special materials. Here is what it does:
Sturdy Rune (new shield rune): These removable runes can be added to any other shields, including wooden, precious materials, and specifically enchanted shields. They modify the regular listed shield’s stats. The level and GP cost remains as listed.
A Minor Sturdy rune adds +3 Hardness, +40 HP, +20 BT.
A Lesser Sturdy rune adds +5 Hardness, +60 H0 HP, +30 BT.
A Moderate Sturdy rune adds +8 Hardness, +80 HP, +40 BT.
A Greater Sturdy rune adds +10 Hardness, +100 HP, +50 BT.
A Major Sturdy rune adds +12 Hardness, +120 HP, +60 BT.
A Supreme Sturdy rune adds +15 Hardness, +140 HP, +70 BT.
Depending upon what shield the rune is added to, it doesn't come out exactly identical to the Sturdy shields in the book, but it's close enough for me.
If you are using my indestructible shields rule, you only need to apply the added Hardness, HP/BT are not really used in that system.
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I'm looking for a GM allowing my cleric to get the uncommon cantrip Inspire Courage, as well as a lot of focus spell. I'm OK to work for this, but I don't want to spend a feat - the fighter doesn't spend a feat to get an uncommon shield or weapon, the wizard doesn't spend a feat to get the teleport spell. Do you know any GM allowing that? Are you looking for players (since you seems to allow that)?
I have no idea if you're serious or trying to mischaracterize my position, but this deeply mischracterizes my position to the point of appearing as a really obvious straw man.
To be clear, neither I nor the book say you should be able to get any Uncommon thing, and particularly nothing I said even implied you could get spells restricted to a specific Class as another Class. 'Access to Uncommon things' does not even imply you can grab Domain spells without the Domain or Class specific cantrips without the Class. There are rules other than rarity alone preventing that.
To be specific, both are considered Focus Spells, and as the Focus Spell section on p. 300 indicates:
"You can learn focus spells only through special class features or feats, rather than choosing them from a spell list."
So, since specific overrides general, even a Focus Spell listed as Common would, by the rules, only be available through a specific Feat. Rarity of Uncommon or lower actually has no impact on their availability, since that text overrides its effects.