Letting players take the Advanced template in place of a class level. Would this be a good idea?


Homebrew and House Rules


So basically, the idea is that, rather than training their combat skills and what not, they specifically focus on training their physical and mental capabilities. They would forever be down an HD, thus down a character level, but they would get a +4 to each ability score and a +2 to natural armor, so this would be made up easily. They wouldn’t get a capstone due to never getting their 20th level (as one of their “levels” is the Advanced template), but I feel like this is a good trade off.

So for example, for a spellcaster, they could have the choice of getting another level of spellcasting, or increasing their physical stats (thus allowing them to be less squishy), and their mental stats (thus allowing them to gain more bonus spells and have a higher casting stat).

It could even be used to have somewhat less optimized starting ability scores with point buy, since they can raise all of them +4 at the cost of one level. This would create more rounded out characters in the long run.

I’m not sure if I should allow them to take the Advanced template multiple times, or only once, but I’m leaning to only once, since with enough stacking Advanced templates, they could become untouchable regardless of how many actual levels they have, and easily hit anything, also regardless of how many actual levels they have.

Does this sound like a good idea?


It's a *far* better deal for martial characters than spellcasters, but I don't think that's a bad thing. I definitely would only allow it once, though, if I did allow it. Stacking it up is going to lead to insanity.

If you're open to allowing the Advanced template, be prepared to consider the option of allowing characters to add on any +1 template in place of a character level - I'd be very surprised if your players didn't ask about it. That'd allow even more character customization and well-roundedness, although it could lead to some crazy synergies that are hard to anticipate as well.


I thought Pathfinder did away with level adjustment... can't you just take a template without giving up a level?

Obviously the GM has to a approve, but we already knew that.


A 1-level delay in class features and feats in exchange for +2 to all saves, skills, attacks and damage rolls, Initiative, and DC's is a ridiculously good deal. I can't see any non-full caster passing that up, ever. And even then, I'd eagerly put off my next spell level to that boost to all of my spell DC's. DC19 color spray/sleep sounds good to me.
The biggest thing is hit points, but only at low levels. Assuming a barbarian with Con18, Toughness and a favored class bonus, that's ~13hp/level after the first. Once you hit lvl7, this option nets you more than leveling. If you're a Con14 Wizard, it's a better deal by lvl4.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:
I’m not sure if I should allow them to take the Advanced template multiple times, or only once, but I’m leaning to only once, since with enough stacking Advanced templates, they could become untouchable regardless of how many actual levels they have, and easily hit anything, also regardless of how many actual levels they have.

Well, a while ago I stacked advanced (+4 AC) with vampire (+9 AC for +2 CR, so pretty much the same ratio), and the melee PCs had a hard time. Usually +1 CR means roughly +1.25 CR (see the "Monster Statistics by CR" table in any Bestiary), hence they had to deal with an AC 9 points higher than usual. As players, they overcame the challenge thanks to a tactical retreat, rethinking and using their various resources. But you probably don't want NPCs and monsters face such bulwarks, after "just" three levels skipped.

Advanced is strong, I doubt many +1 CR templates can compete with it. The only drawback is that you don't get any new powers - but this drawback is actually enough to make it quite boring for players. High numbers are nice and can even win the battle for you, but it's usually the powers that really excite people. So in comparison the template usually will make a PC stronger, but also less fun.


It's all fun and games until you run into a demon with a blasphemy SLA, a heavens oracle color spraying or something else HD dependent. That's fairly rare though.

I'd prefer to give out more flavourful templates and have done so in the past.


Okay, so a lot of you are saying it is a strong option, but also not flavorful. So what if instead, at character creation, I give them the option of taking the Degenerate template (-4 to all ability scores, minimum 1, doesn’t do anything to natural armor), but in return, they get a bonus class level, that doesn’t count for what level they count as for wbl or exp?

This way, it is basically like they are naturally talented, but not superhuman, ie, kinda like Batman. It would definitely require them not to go too low in an ability score with point buy, lest they end up really weak in that score.

I’m also considering other templates, like the +0/+1 simple templates that are based off of the planes, using them in place of the Advanced template.


My question is: why a template at all? What are you hoping to achieve?


Quixote wrote:
My question is: why a template at all? What are you hoping to achieve?

Why not? More options are better than less options. Just trying to keep things entertaining.


Are more options always better than less options though?

There have been numerous studies showing that more choices often decreases satisfaction, and we're talking about adding another option - and one that may have unforeseen consequences or interactions - to a game that already offers choices in droves.

More (or different) options can be great if they fulfill some specific purpose within your game, but I think without a purpose in mind and some thought into how it may change the game there's a chance you might just be frustrating your players.


Looking specifically at your most recent suggestion, personally I don't think I would consider any individual class level - especially at low level - to be a good grade for -4 to all stats.

That doesn't produce a Batman-like character in my mind, unless the point buy is unusually high it's more likely to produce weak peasants with an extra ability or two that they won't be especially good at using.


Degenerate seems like it'd push players to pet classes. Not Batman; they're slow, weak, unimpressive and/or stupid (17, 14, 14, 12, 9, 7 becomes 13, 10, 10, 8, 5, 3) which doesn't fit the guy in black. I'd never take it.


CR and Class levels are not linked 1-to-1 and is more of a scale. A monster getting class levels would gain +1/+2 CR depending on what the monster's role is. Meanwhile, a monster advancing as a PC would have significantly reduced levels for some time, but overall higher effective CR.

Here are the rules for monsters as PC

The relevant rule text:

Monsters as PC wrote:
If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. … It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down.

The key part is: The initial level == CR + Class level, and monsters get additional levels up to half CR (min 1) for every 3 levels the party has.

I recommend looking at the different threads talking about giving PCs templates.


This is so strong that only a fool would pass it up. If you introduce this it will not be an option any character who does not take it will be at an extreme disadvantage. It will also throw off all calculations on of balance and make the game a lot more difficult to run for the GM.

Mathematically speaking this is going to cause people to dump stats like crazy because it offset the disadvantage of doing so. Don’t be surprised when you end up with a starting primary stat of24 and two 18’ and noting below 10. To compensate you will probably ending up having to do the same with all the monsters. At that point what was the point?

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