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I can take a guess at the question.
With this feat you can make a Arcane/Nature/Religion/Occultism check during an adventure, taking 10 minutes at Expert and decreasing in time from there.
The last part of the feat gives you an alternative way: Use your tradition's associated skill as if it was an Earn Income check and subtract that from the cost to learn the spell, then you just pay the remainder. In PFS, it would be the value earned times 8 (or 12 for field agents) subtracted from the cost to learn the spell to a maximum savings of free (you don't get the excess back in coin).
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I can take a guess at the question.
With this feat you can make a Arcane/Nature/Religion/Occultism check during an adventure, taking 10 minutes at Expert and decreasing in time from there.
The last part of the feat gives you an alternative way: Use your tradition's associated skill as if it was an Earn Income check and subtract that from the cost to learn the spell, then you just pay the remainder. In PFS, it would be the value earned times 8 (or 12 for field agents) subtracted from the cost to learn the spell to a maximum savings of free (you don't get the excess back in coin).
You can already do the first one during a scenario without the feat, though the default time is 1 hour per spell. So you are typically good if it's a multi-day scenario and you can do it while you are on board a ship, camping for the night, or under curfew in a hostile city. But bringing it down to 10 minutes mean you can do that while your party is tending wounds / refocusing. I'd even allow a wizard to Refocus while learning a spell with Magical Shorthand, since I'd say it falls under "studying the spellbook/conducting arcane research", though that is the GM's call. But you asked about the downtime application, so:
The only thing unclear to me about Magical Shorthand is the task level. The task level is meant to reflect the work you are doing. Given that, I would think that the task level would correspond to the level of the spell you are copying. So learning a cantrip or 1st level spell would be task level 1, learning a 2nd level spell would be Task Level 3, and so on. That said, that's how I think it ought to work, but it would be good to get some guidance from Org Play on it.Edit: I guess the other question is "Can I do this at all?/Do I have access to a library / other spellbooks, etc?". Given that this skill feat was not disallowed (like Connections), or modified (like Experienced Smuggler), I'd say yes, it should work.
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Fair points. Given that it is one roll, the DCs to Learn the Spell match the DCs by task level (used to Earn Income) if you assign the task level in the manner I've described. So, if you are always using this to learn spells of the highest level you can cast, you are attempting checks of either your level or your level -1, AND using Arcana for the check. These are solid benefits, though (IMO) not significantly out of line with what can be done using skill feats.
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You can already do the first one during a scenario without the feat, though the default time is 1 hour per spell. So you are typically good if it's a multi-day scenario and you can do it while you are on board a ship, camping for the night, or under curfew in a hostile city. But bringing it down to 10 minutes mean you can do that while your party is tending wounds / refocusing. I'd even allow a wizard to Refocus while learning a spell with Magical Shorthand, since I'd say it falls under "studying the spellbook/conducting arcane research", though that is the GM's call. But you asked about the downtime application, so:
The only thing unclear to me about Magical Shorthand is the task level. The task level is meant to reflect the work you are doing. Given that, I would think that the task level would correspond to the level of the spell you are copying. So learning a cantrip or 1st level spell would be task level 1, learning a 2nd level spell would be Task Level 3, and so on. That said, that's how I think it ought to work, but it would be good to get some guidance from Org Play on it.Edit: I guess the other question is "Can I do this at all?/Do I have access to a library / other spellbooks, etc?". Given that this skill feat was not disallowed (like Connections), or modified (like Experienced Smuggler), I'd say yes, it should...
Firstly, it is 1 hour per spell level.
Secondly, it still seems that you have to have access to the spell to be learned in some way.
Thirdly, to BT,
So, if you crit succeed, do you make the spell cost less as well as earn more?
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Thirdly, to BT,
So, if you crit succeed, do you make the spell cost less as well as earn more?
You make the spell cost less, but if you're using the feat, you're not earning money only discounting the price of the spell.
Example:
I have a 3rd level Wizard who discovers a scroll with, let's say a unique level 2 spell.
The scenario in which it is awarded does not provide time for your character to learn a spell (something pressured, like 1-03) or you don't have 6 gp on hand.
You're now in Downtime.
You have Arcana at Trained (+9).
You also have Lore (library) at Trained (+9).
It costs 6 gp to learn the level 2 spell.
If you used your Downtime to Earn Income at Character Level - 2, you'd roll d20+9 vs. DC 15 to be able to earn 1.6 gp (or 2.4 gp on a critical success)
If you used Magical Shorthand, you'd be able to roll d20+9 vs. DC 18 to reduce the cost by 4 gp (5.6 gp on a critical success).
So this saves you more money, but you can't use it to also earn money if you manage to exceed the cost to learn the spell.
Example: If you were a Field Commission with 12 days of downtime, you could not roll your check vs. DC 18 (task level 3) to, let's say, critically succeed and get a result of 7 sp x 12 days = 8.4 gp, reducing the cost of the spell to 0 gp and pocketing the extra 2.4 gp. You would only 1) reduce the cost of the spell to 0 gp and 2) learn the spell, but get nothing else.
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*sigh*
Yes, it clearly states that you are not earning any income if you exceed the cost of the spell. My wording could have been better.
My question revolves around whether the 'Learn a Spell' check is rolled into the 'Earn Income' check. If you crit succeed on the Earn Income check, does that also reduce the cost of learning the spell (as if you had crit succeeded on a 'Learn a Spell' check)?
Also, why would you roll an Earn Income at a higher task level because of Magical Shorthand?
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No, you don't get it at half cost if you critically succeed using Magical Shorthand during Downtime. The mechanics of Magical Shorthand replace the mechanics of Learn a Spell during Downtime.
In PFS, the highest task level that you can attempt (barring feats and boons) to Earn Income (the usual use to earn money) is Character Level - 2. At 3rd level, fir example, you'd earn a max of 1.6 gp (barring crits).
Using Magical Shorthand during Downtime to Learn a Spell uses the task level of the Learn a Spell activity (I believe), thus a 3rd level character learning a 2nd level spell in this way rolls on the 3rd level task row for a max of 4 gp, which is more effective gain to the character.
6 gp spent to learn the spell during adventure minus 1.6 gp earned during Downtime (net -4.4 gp) vs. 2 gp spent to learn the spell during Downtime (net -2 gp).
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Okay, so do you not have to roll a 'Learn a Spell' check? If not, then do you learn the spell regardless of your 'Earn Income' check result?
Ah, so you are assuming when it comes to the task level thing.
EDIT: Learn a Spell doesn't have task levels, though the DCs do correspond with task level DCs
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EDIT: Learn a Spell doesn't have task levels, though the DCs do correspond with task level DCs
That's where my interpretation comes from as far as the task level. I can't imagine it would become an easier task level due to the PFS limit of Character Level - 2 for regular Earn Income checks nor limited to only using for spells learnable for Character Level - 2.
But, no, as I read it, you don't make 2 rolls.
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It looks like it.
Normal
Spend 1 hour/spell level to learn a spell during the adventure for COST.
Critical Failure: Spend 0.5*COST and do not learn spell, try again in 1 week.
Fail: Do not learn spell, try again in 1 week.
Success: Spend COST and learn spell.
Critical Success: Spend 0.5*COST and learn spell.
Magical Shorthand
Spend 1 Skill Feat slot to obtain Magical Shorthand on the off chance you get a chance to use it, ever.
Spend X days of Downtime to reduce the cost.
Critical Fail, Fail, Success, and Critical Success: Reduce the COST by 0 to N gp and learn the spell.
I don't know if the intent was to learn the spell regardless, but that's the way I read it. I also feel like the cost of a feat for something you could very well never use is worth the price of that... but I don't claim to know the intent.
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About the question on the task level, the exact wording in the CRB is: "This works as if you were using Earn Income with the tradition’s associated skill, ...". Since that says you are using Earn Income, the task level is at -2 according to the PF2 Guide by default. The Guide only includes ONE exception: "...though some boons may allow you to attempt checks against higher-level tasks as a special reward". This feat is not a boon or a special reward. Therefore it must follow the rules as written for society play.
The Magical Shorthand feat allows a spellcaster to use downtime to learn a spell according to Table 10–5: DCs by Level using Earn Income at task level -2.
For example, a 5th level wizard with the Magical Shorthand feat wants to learn a 3rd level spell. In between scenarios, on their downtime, they would roll against a DC of 18. They are taking 8 days to learn this spell.
This feat turns Learn a Spell into an Earn Income check when you use it for downtime activities.
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There are already feats allowed that alter the Earn Income task level that are neither boons nor special rewards.
Your interpretation lowers the DC (makes it easier) due to an artificial outside rule not in existence when the feat was written.
1) There is 1 feat that has been specifically noted in PFS that is an exception. I do not know of any others. As you used the plural, what feats do you know of that I do not? Also, Magical Shorthand itself does not specifically state what task level the Earn Income check is at.
2) That "artificial outside rule" is the Society Guide. Thus I would assume that it takes precedent. Also, "when the feat was written" the GM set the task level/DC (pg. 236 CRB). Last time I checked, the Society Guide is essentially the ruling GM for society play. So...
Whether or not it makes sense that it lowers the DC, it seems to stand that the Guide establishes the rules.
Based on this discussion, and discussions with others, I think that Magical Shorthand works thusly:
Downtime comes, you pick what spell you want to learn that you have access to. You make an Earn Income check with your corresponding tradition at task level equal to your level - 2. The success result, multiplied by the days of downtime, is then subtracted from the total cost of learning the spell. "Money" earned in excess of the spell cost is lost. Otherwise the remaining cost is paid. The spell is learned regardless of check result.
i.e.
Frank, the 6th level wizard wishes to learn Fireball during his downtime (he found a scroll of it). He makes an Arcana check at task level 4 (DC 19)
So...8 sp X 8 days = 6.4 g
The cost of scribing a 3rd level spell is 16 g.
16g - 6.4g = 9.6g
So...Frank has to spend 9.6g to cover the remaining cost.
If Frank had wished to learn Dispel Magic instead...
The cost of scribing a 2nd level spell is 6g.
6g - 6.4g = -0.4g
So...Frank learns Dispel Magic and neither earns gold nor spends any gold.
As a side note: If you wish to learn a lower level spell than the highest you can cast via Magical Shorthand, you'll notice that the DC is higher than the DC to normally learn the spell.
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2) That "artificial outside rule" is the Society Guide. Thus I would assume that it takes precedent. Also, "when the feat was written" the GM set the task level/DC (pg. 236 CRB). Last time I checked, the Society Guide is essentially the ruling GM for society play.
That is technically a true statement. However, PFS rule on Earn Income with earning money in mind. Now, it could be that it is limited by Character Level - 2 so that you can't save more than you could earn and limiting the utility of the feat to a shortened time in an adventure. However, they didn't do that with crafting.
As a side note: If you wish to learn a lower level spell than the highest you can cast via Magical Shorthand, you'll notice that the DC is higher than the DC to normally learn the spell.
Which doesn't make sense to me and is further evidence to me that it is set at the Learn a Spell task level.
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It looks like it.
Normal
Spend 1 hour/spell level to learn a spell during the adventure for COST.
Critical Failure: Spend 0.5*COST and do not learn spell, try again in 1 week.
Fail: Do not learn spell, try again in 1 week.
Success: Spend COST and learn spell.
Critical Success: Spend 0.5*COST and learn spell.Magical Shorthand
Spend 1 Skill Feat slot to obtain Magical Shorthand on the off chance you get a chance to use it, ever.
Spend X days of Downtime to reduce the cost.
Critical Fail, Fail, Success, and Critical Success: Reduce the COST by 0 to N gp and learn the spell.I don't know if the intent was to learn the spell regardless, but that's the way I read it. I also feel like the cost of a feat for something you could very well never use is worth the price of that... but I don't claim to know the intent.
I am not sure that I read it that way. I think I am closer to Leo's reading.
As I read it, I think there are two separate checks. First would be the earned income check using the standard PFS task level. This will define how much gold needs to be put down by a player.
Then comes the check versus table 4-3: leaning a spell. This determines how successful the character is in learning the spell. If, on this check, the character had a crit success, thus reducing the cost of the spell, they many "loss" out on gold from earned income. But at least they likely didn't have to pay anything extra.
Learning spells comes easily to you. If you’re an expert in a tradition’s associated skill, you take 10 minutes per spell level to learn a spell of that tradition, rather than 1 hour per spell level. If you fail to learn the spell, you can try again after 1 week or after you gain a level, whichever comes first. If you’re a master in the tradition’s associated skill, learning a spell takes 5 minutes per spell level, and if you’re legendary, it takes 1 minute per spell level. You can use downtime to learn and inscribe new spells. This works as if you were using Earn Income with the tradition’s associated skill, but instead of gaining money, you choose a spell available to you to learn and gain a discount on learning it, learning it for free if your earned income equals or exceeds its cost.
Emphasis mine.
On a fail or crit fail, the character does not learn the spell. All this last part is saying is that the character would not need to add more gold, just that get it "Free" because of their earned income roll.|
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1) There is 1 feat that has been specifically noted in PFS that is an exception. I do not know of any others. As you used the plural, what feats do you know of that I do not? Also, Magical Shorthand itself does not specifically state what task level the Earn Income check is at.There are already feats allowed that alter the Earn Income task level that are neither boons nor special rewards.
Your interpretation lowers the DC (makes it easier) due to an artificial outside rule not in existence when the feat was written.
Legendary Performer and Legendary Professional both have as their non-ribbon benefit increasing the level of the job you can attempt by 2.
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@First World Bard
Thanks
@BT
I double checked the crafting rules and found that, while one does use the Earn Income table while crafting, one does not technically make an Earn Income check. That, plus the fact that the other feats that affect the task level are specifically explained how they do, further lead me to believe that the task level is what the Guide says it is by default.
Also it strikes me as odd that you are getting hung up on the fact of the DC of the check being different to what the Learn a Spell DC would be, when you agree that the wording implies that there is no Learn a Spell check to be had, that you learn the spell regardless of the outcome of the check. If the Learn a Spell check is not a part of the Earn Income check, then why does the difference in DC matter? And, to add to that, conceptually, you are spending 8+ days to learn 1 spell. Why wouldn't that make it easier?
Also, and I just thought of this while typing this, if the DC was dependent on the spell level, why then would they have the addition of "learning it for free if your earned income equals or exceeds its cost". If you are bound to roll a task level 1 Earn Income to learn a level 1 spell, you'd have to spend at least 10 days to equal the cost of the level 1 spell, 12 days for a level 2 spell, 16 days for a level 3 spell, and so on... That seems quite excessive to learn just one spell. Maybe that's just me. A character legendary in Arcana has to spend 10 days to cover the cost of a cantrip... *looks skeptically*
@Gary
There is one major issue with the idea that there is a Learn a Spell check as part of the downtime activity. What if you fail to learn the spell? All of the time spent for the Earn Income check is just wasted? Plus, as stated above, you are learning the spell in a manner of days where the normal learning of a spell only takes hours. It stands to reason that taking that long for one activity would pretty much assure success. That and there is no mention of a Learn a Spell check in the wording of the feat.
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And, to add to that, conceptually, you are spending 8+ days to learn 1 spell. Why wouldn't that make it easier?
Because as you pointed out, it makes it harder for lower level spells as you improve your ability.
If you are bound to roll a task level 1 Earn Income to learn a level 1 spell, you'd have to spend at least 10 days to equal the cost of the level 1 spell, 12 days for a level 2 spell, 16 days for a level 3 spell, and so on...
Because the feat wasn't written with PFS in mind, so plenty of home games could allow for extended downtime.
A character legendary in Arcana has to spend 10 days to cover the cost of a cantrip... *looks skeptically*
If he wants to do it that way (actually he's guaranteed a critical success so 7 days). He could also pay regular price and not fail to learn in in 1 minute except on a natural 1.
But with your way of doing it, he has a 10% chance of failure instead of the inherent 5% because his task level is now Level 13 with a DC 31 to learn a cantrip instead of DC 14.
But I didn't design it, and I'm not going to argue how much sense it does or does not make when you take it to extremes.
I double checked the crafting rules and found that, while one does use the Earn Income table while crafting, one does not technically make an Earn Income check.
My point is that Crafting creates "effective income."
You're a Level 1 fighter and want to buy an Aldori Dueling Sword for the sake of example.
You could A) make an Earn Income check at Task Level 0 for 0.4 sp and then spend an additional 1.6 gp for the sword.
Or you could B) make a Crafting check at Task Level 1 to reduce the cost by 1.6 gp in an 8 day block and then pay the remaining 0.4 sp.
Where was the most money "earned?" A or B? The answer is B.
I concede that the feat is not as clear as it could have been. I have always conceded that. I have also already conceded that, should they get around to clarifying it, it may work the way you suggest, in which the DC is "whatever the GM says it is" (Character Level - 2 in PFS' case). However, your arguments aren't convincing me that your interpretation is definitely the right one. And that's OK. You don't need to convince me. What we need people to click the FAQ button on this thread.
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@Gary
There is one major issue with the idea that there is a Learn a Spell check as part of the downtime activity. What if you fail to learn the spell? All of the time spent for the Earn Income check is just wasted?
Keep in mind what Magical Shorthand is really doing. Allowing a character to earn income for the material costs to learn a spell. It depends on the roll I think. On a fail no, as the table 4-3 states that the materials are not lost. On a crit fail, the character would lose half the materials. If the roll to learn the spell was a fail or crit fail, the player can't try again to learn the spell until they get a new level, or with Magical Shorthand, after 1 week. But not on the same downtime check so it would have to be after the next adventure. But i see the materials remaining and would have to be noted on the character sheet. I don't see a problem with the character using earned income materials on a new learn a spell roll, or even adding to the materials with a new earned income roll, after the next adventure as long as the GM notes it all on the chronicle.
Plus, as stated above, you are learning the spell in a manner of days where the normal learning of a spell only takes hours. It stands to reason that taking that long for one activity would pretty much assure success. That and there is no mention of a Learn a Spell check in the wording of the feat.
Learning spells comes easily to you. If you’re an expert in a tradition’s associated skill, you take 10 minutes per spell level to learn a spell of that tradition, rather than 1 hour per spell level. If you fail to learn the spell, you can try again after 1 week or after you gain a level, whichever comes first. If you’re a master in the tradition’s associated skill, learning a spell takes 5 minutes per spell level, and if you’re legendary, it takes 1 minute per spell level. You can use downtime to learn and inscribe new spells. This works as if you were using Earn Income with the tradition’s associated skill, but instead of gaining money, you choose a spell available to you to learn and gain a discount on learning it, learning it for free if your earned income equals or exceeds its cost.
The Action of Learn a Spell (see page 238) is clearly call out in the Feat. What is taking the days is "earning" materials needed to reduce the cost of learning the spell.
I think what is intended is that earned income is used to offset the material cost of the learning the spell, not to allow for the spell to learned without a roll.
This question seem more like a rules question as a PFS specific question, so I am going to flag it to be moved to rules area. Also added my voice to the FAQ.
The action of learn a spell (specifically the lower case there) is called out in the first part of the feat. The second part of the feat calls out for Earn Income for this section. Those two things are not the same; they're separate actions.
Edited to add: This doesn't even mention the fact that if you use the spell level as the task level, (as far as I can figure out and right now my brain doesn't want to math) you can never equal or exceed the cost of learning the spell, which makes it illogical in every way. There must be a success condition for the last sentence of the feat to be applicable.
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I think I am changing my mind on the Learn a Spell check. After rereading it the umpteenth time, because it doesn't say that you don't have to roll the check, I think you do. Now, the repercussions of failing that check leads to more questions about keeping track or maybe just losing the work.
(side note: for 8 days, you'd get a second check to learn it)
As for the Earn Income part, "This works as if you were using Earn Income.."...so you roll an Earn Income. The Guide tells us how to do that.
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If you want a chance of this getting clarified in a FAQ, you've got to stop bringing PFS limitations into it or it's likely to be ignored.
The questions to which the answers are unclear regarding Magical Shorthand are:
1. Do you make a Learn a Spell roll after using the downtime function of the feat?
2. What is the task level used on the Earn Income table.
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If you want a chance of this getting clarified in a FAQ, you've got to stop bringing PFS limitations into it or it's likely to be ignored.
The questions to which the answers are unclear regarding Magical Shorthand are:
1. Do you make a Learn a Spell roll after using the downtime function of the feat?
2. What is the task level used on the Earn Income table.
Agree. Everyone should click FAQ on this post!
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Agree. Everyone should click FAQ on this post!If you want a chance of this getting clarified in a FAQ, you've got to stop bringing PFS limitations into it or it's likely to be ignored.
The questions to which the answers are unclear regarding Magical Shorthand are:
1. Do you make a Learn a Spell roll after using the downtime function of the feat?
2. What is the task level used on the Earn Income table.
Yes, I'd really like too to have an answer for these as the ruling has been very GM based for now.
For now, as a player, I often use it also with a level -2 just to be sure, considering the utility of just having an arcana roll check with a higher potential than my earn income skills.|
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I recently got pointed to this thread, as I thought I understood it but learned that... oh hey, there's some debate. This was my interpretation:
First, have a reference to the Magical Shorthand feat.
The pertinent bit is, "You can use downtime to learn and inscribe new spells. This works as if you were using Earn Income with the tradition’s associated skill, but instead of gaining money, you choose a spell available to you to learn and gain a discount on learning it, learning it for free if your earned income equals or exceeds its cost."
Learn a Spell is normally an Exploration activity, and doesn't have the Downtime trait. So the first thing the feat does is let you learn a spell using Downtime. In an AP, I expect a GM would just let you do this, but PFS is all about technicalities.
The next good thing is that you can use Arcana for the roll. My wizard, at level 3, is an Expert in Arcana which is better than all my other skills that Earn Income. Better chance to crit the income earned. Add the fact that a crit also halves the scribing costs... Here's the math I did.
A level 3 wizard with a scroll for a 2nd level spell he wants to learn. With a +11 in Arcana they make a single roll and get a 17 for a 28 total (YAY). That's a crit for both the task DC for Earn Income (15 for a level 1 task, because it's level -2 in PFS) and Learn a Spell (18 for a 2nd level spell). This means that they earn the task level 2 money (crits earn at +1 level so 3sp x8 days for 2.4gp) AND halve the cost from 6gp to 3gp. The net cost is 6sp! If I were learning a 1st level spell it'd be free.
This is (admittedly marginally) better than just using a Lore skill to Earn Income and buy it normally. The perks are it's probably your best roll (assuming you prioritize Arcana, which I'd expect a wizard would) and it's only one roll. Using a different skill probably means a slightly decreased chance of a crit. It's also helpful if you really wanted to do Learn a Spell but never got time to during the scenario (unlikely, but could happen).
I didn't see anything anywhere that suggested 2 rolls were required, or that you'd for some reason roll Earn Income at a higher task level than the default level -2.
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I didn't see anything anywhere that suggested 2 rolls were required, or that you'd for some reason roll Earn Income at a higher task level than the default level -2.
To me, the fact that it is an Earned Income rolls make it two rolls. One roll for the Earned Income using all Earned Income rules and then a roll to learn the spell.
I don't see how you are able to use Arcana for the Earned Income check.
This adds a different dimension to the discussion. One I think I like.
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"...This works as if you were using Earn Income with the tradition’s associated skill, but instead of gaining money..."
It seems to me to be quite apparent that the Earn Income check uses "the tradition's associated skill" (i.e. Arcana for Wizards).
@J.A. Chapman
It really seems odd to me that with 1 roll you can crit Earn Income and Learn a Spell. If there is one roll, you are rolling Earn Income and not Learn a Spell.
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It seems to me to be quite apparent that the Earn Income check uses "the tradition's associated skill" (i.e. Arcana for Wizards).
Agreed. Seems fairly clear cut to me too.
It really seems odd to me that with 1 roll you can crit Earn Income and Learn a Spell
This is the one I can't get behind personally. The way it reads to me is as a kind of substitution for the regular Earn Income roll. It's modifying Earn Income, which only requires a single roll (even if it spans multiple days). The only awkward element is the different DCs that you're testing against, but they're known DCs. I actually like the idea that I could have a crit success on the part of learning a spell, even if I don't nail the cost-saving portion of it (or vice versa)
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"...This works as if you were using Earn Income with the tradition’s associated skill, but instead of gaining money..."
It seems to me to be quite apparent that the Earn Income check uses "the tradition's associated skill" (i.e. Arcana for Wizards).
Ok. Thanks for the emphasis. Read it several times and that part did not trigger for me.
Now the question is the task level for the earned income DC, for PFS, character level - 2? I think it would have to be.
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It really seems odd to me that with 1 roll you can crit Earn Income and Learn a SpellThis is the one I can't get behind personally. The way it reads to me is as a kind of substitution for the regular Earn Income roll. It's modifying Earn Income, which only requires a single roll (even if it spans multiple days). The only awkward element is the different DCs that you're testing against, but they're known DCs. I actually like the idea that I could have a crit success on the part of learning a spell, even if I don't nail the cost-saving portion of it (or vice versa)
It has to be two rolls. That is the only way it makes sense.
The process is two steps. One to earn income to offset the cost of the spell and one to learn the spell.
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I would be happy with whatever clarification OP team issues.
Until that point, and regardless of what I prefer or what makes the most sense (based on DCs or whatever), I'm going with the interpretation that adheres the closest to what the feat says.
"..This works as if you were using Earn Income.." : Earned Income checks in society are clearly defined as level -2.
The feat does not say that you do not have to make a Learn a Spell check, so you do. (apologies for the double negative, but it seemed necessary)
While it makes me wince a little, I truly believe that this adheres the closest to the RAW between the Guide and the CRB.
Interestingly, this essentially turns the latter half of the feat into yet another feat that allows you to use a different skill for Earn Income checks (which isn't really that unreasonable or uncommon).
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Yeah, I would like OP clarification on this too (and I did click the FAQ). For now, I'm going to try and avoid using Magical Shorthand for the purposes of Downtime.
At least I'm getting good mileage out of the other aspects of the feat. Bumping into another wizard during a scenario and getting 6 1st level spells scribed in an hour is pretty nice. Especially when that hour is probably getting used for healing.
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"..This works as if you were using Earn Income.." : Earned Income checks in society are clearly defined as level -2.
The feat does not say that you do not have to make a Learn a Spell check, so you do. (apologies for the double negative, but it seemed necessary)While it makes me wince a little, I truly believe that this adheres the closest to the RAW between the Guide and the CRB.
Realize that there are those who disagree and they might require the player to make two rolls. Yes, I am one of those GMs.
Okay, if you go with that, Gary, then you need to allow multiple rolls to learn the spell if it fails at first, since the time indicated would allow that. It wouldn't be one-and-done due to the 8 days used.
I still believe that it requires only one roll, for the Earn Income check.
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
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There should only be one roll made. You are learning a new spell. You are making an Earn Income roll with your tradition's associated skill to learn the spell. If you roll high enough, you get a discount on the cost of learning it based on your Earn Income DC for your level (-2). You could even not have a cost due to your discount exceeding the cost of learning the spell.
I think this is pretty clear. I think if it was meant to be two rolls it would have indicated it. Furthermore, if the downtime roll for Earn Income was meant to be separate from the Learn a Spell roll, there would have been no point in this part of the feat other than your tradition possibly being higher than the skill used for Earn Income.
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There should only be one roll made. You are learning a new spell. You are making an Earn Income roll with your tradition's associated skill to learn the spell. If you roll high enough, you get a discount on the cost of learning it based on your Earn Income DC for your level (-2). You could even not have a cost due to your discount exceeding the cost of learning the spell.
I think this is pretty clear. I think if it was meant to be two rolls it would have indicated it. Furthermore, if the downtime roll for Earn Income was meant to be separate from the Learn a Spell roll, there would have been no point in this part of the feat other than your tradition possibly being higher than the skill used for Earn Income.
And I disagree with you.
I read that there are two rolls. One for Earned Income to determine the amount of discount and one for learning the spell. As a real-life example, a person can work a summer job to get money to take a college course. Simply by working the summer does not guarantee that the person will get a passing grade in the course.
This is why I think we need clarification from the design team and/or the organized play team to give us guidance on how this works.
So please click the FAQ so we can get that guidance!
And I really don't care if they say it is one roll. It is easier. But someone needs to say because there is obviously two different ways to read the same words.
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Okay, if you go with that, Gary, then you need to allow multiple rolls to learn the spell if it fails at first, since the time indicated would allow that. It wouldn't be one-and-done due to the 8 days used.
I still believe that it requires only one roll, for the Earn Income check.
Hmm I guess so. Not a big deal to me.
And I disagree that only one roll is required.
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I think if it was meant to be two rolls it would have indicated it.
That is where I disagree. For it to be one roll would make it different from the general way of doing it.
Imagine, if you will, that you were learning a spell and using your downtime to cover some/most of the cost. You would make a Learn a Spell check and then roll a separate roll for your Earn Income. This is how it would normally be. All that Magical Shorthand does is allow you to use your tradition's associated skill in place of craft/profession/perform.
As that stands as the normal way of doing it, for it to be one roll would be a deviation. As it does not specify that it is a deviation, it stands that it must be separate.
...no point in this part of the feat other than your tradition possibly being higher than the skill used for Earn Income.
Yep, this.
Okay, if you go with that, Gary, then you need to allow multiple rolls to learn the spell if it fails at first, since the time indicated would allow that. It wouldn't be one-and-done due to the 8 days used.
To put it more specifically, Magical Shorthand allows you to try again after 7 days. As such you'd essentially have 2 tries as downtime is 8 days.
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Out of—admittedly largely academic—curiosity, where are you getting that the feat allows you to perform an Exploration activity (or at least a second attempt if you attribute the first attempt to the feat) during downtime?
I would think that if, as you assert, it is two separate functions (one an Exploration activity and one a Downtime activity) the all you accomplish during Downtime is reducing the cost. The learning activity must then take place during your next scenario.
Now, my personal opinion is that you should be able to do it during Downtime but that’s a different discussion.
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I am not claiming that it is an exploration activity. What I was getting at is that to learn a spell requires a Learn a Spell check. That is the general rule. If something were to change that, it would need to explicitly state so. It does not explicitly state that the Learn a Spell check is folded into the Earn Income check, nor does it explicitly state that you do not have to make a Learn a Spell check at all.
As the feat does not explicitly state a change to the general rule, the rule still applies.
The same argument goes for the task level that it is performed at. The feat does not explicitly declare what task level you make the Earn Income check at. Therefore, you make the check at the GM decided task level, which for PFS is level -2.
I personally would like specific clarification on this by OP. Also, I think it'd work more simply some of the other ways this has been interpreted. What I prefer does not, however, change the fact that general rules are only overcome by specific rules.
Also,
"You can use downtime to learn and inscribe new spells."
That seems like a decent argument so say that the Learn a Spell check is a part of the Downtime activity. For those that want to argue that Learn a Spell checks are only Exploration activities.
specific > general