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Methods of dealing sneak attack at range

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Alright, so I've had a build for a while and overlooked a massive issue regarding getting sneak attacks off and it is a bit of a bummer. The build is a PFS Grenadier Alchemist + Underground Chemist Rogue and has a lot of actions taken up. Usually in combat, I have my move and standard taken up by Alchemical weaponing a crossbow bolt and then Explosive Missileing it. The problem I encountered was with a Sipping Jacket and didn't work for two-reasons: the wearer (which precludes my tumor familiar) has to pour the potion into jacket, and the action of pouring into can only be done once per day.

So, I've been sorting through some of the ways to gain ranged sneak attack. So far, I have come up with the following:

Deny the opponent's vision (Ex. Darkness Bomb, having superior darkvision, smoke/fog)

Deny the opponent their dexterity bonus to AC (Ex. Surprise round, win initiative)

Gain concealment (Ex. Stealth, Cover or better, Invisibility)

Niche item, feat, or effect that just makes it work. (Ex. Gang Up, Shadow Fletching)

The things I currently plan on doing are using the Gang Up feat at range with Sniper Goggles and/or having my familiar light a Smokestick every turn and have me 5-foot-sneak around.
Outside of that, do you guys have any ideas on how to gain ranged sneak attack?

you did not effectively list what you already knew about.

Like, there is a pair of goggles that give you ranged sneak attack and there are two archetypes that give ranged sneak attack.

Do you know about any of these?

the feat Ranged Feint might be a thing you could use, depending how far along your build already is.

Yet another feat might be the Teamwork feat Feint Partner. Coupled with Ranged Feint, you could have your Tumor Familiar move up and Feint, giving you the chance to fire a ranged attack that takes advantage of the Dex bonus denied by the familiar's success.

Of course, that also means you need to risk your Familiar being that close to the enemy, ensure the Tumor Familiar has a high Cha and that you have racked up ranks in Bluff.

Not a lot of the base Familiar animals have a high Cha. Also Bluff isn't a Class skill for these creatures unless they take a special Archetype. The Ambassador archetype gives Bluff as a Class skill and gradually increases the familiar's Cha; the Decoy archetype gets Bluff and also the familiar gets the Deceitful feat as a bonus; Infiltrator gains Bluff but there's not a lot of other support for that skill from the archetype.

Personally I like the archetype Sage. Taking that and the trait Clever Wordplay by retraining the familiar's base feat to Extra Traits, the familiar can use Int to Bluff instead of Cha. A Sage familiar's Int is always 5+ the PC's CL in a class or classes that contribute to the familiar's development. Couple this with either other traits or the feat Evolved Familiar - Skilled (Bluff) you can really crank your familiar's Bluff skill up and use it to keep you in Feints all day long... until of course it takes a little bit of damage or get's dominated by an enemy's abilities/spells.

Shinoskay : Well, effectively listing everything I know about Pathfinder rules might take a while... *breaths in*

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "give" you ranged sneak attack. I understand that there are items and archetypes that make it easier to meet certain conditions required to gain a sneak attack, but, as far as I am aware, sneak attacking at range (up to 30ft) is a thing is the base rules of the class feature.

Mark Hoover 330 : This is some good stuff but perhaps I was too vague. Here is the build (subject to changes) and the character just reached 7th level.

Le Build:

Gnome Alchemist Bomber
Alchemist archetype: Grenadier (PFS Field Guide)
Rogue archetype: Underground Chemist

Str: 10-2 (8)
Dex: 15 (15)
Con: 10+2 (12)
Int: 18 (18)
Wis: 10 (10)
Cha: 7+2 (9)

Alt. Racial Traits:
Gift of Tongues (hatred, defensive training) 2 languages when you put rank into linguistics
Pyromaniac (gnome magic, illusion resistance) +1 lvl for bomb dmg (includes rogue)
Darkvision 60 (keen senses and lowlight)

Traits:
Alchemical Adept (+2 alchemy, don’t screw up by 5 or more)
Reactionary

1st
Alchemist 1
Alchemy, Bomb 1d6, Throw Anything, Mutagen, Point-Blank Shot (1st), Martial Weapon Proficiency: Light Hammer (bonus), Extra bombs (bonus)
2nd
Alchemist 2
Alchemical Weapon, Precise Bombs, Discovery: Explosive Bomb
3rd
Alchemist 3
Bomb 2d6, Swift Alchemy, Precise Shot (3rd)
4th
Alchemist 4
Discovery: Explosive Missile
5th
Rouge 1
Sneak Attack 1d6, Trapfinding, Extra Discovery: Tumor Familiar: Hedgehog (5th)
6th
Rogue 2
Chemical Weapon, Rogue Talent: Bomber
7th
Rogue 3
Sneak Attack 2d6, Trap Sense +1, Combat Expertise (7th)
8th
Rogue 4
Precise Splash Weapon, Uncanny Dodge
9th
Alchemist 5
Bomb 3d6, Gang Up (9th)
10th
Alchemist 6
Directed Blast, Discovery: Wings
11th
Alchemist 7
Bomb 4d6, Accomplished Sneak Attacker: 3d6 (11th)
12th
Alchemist 8
Discovery: Demolition Charge

Due to action-economy, the Ranged Feint doesn't exactly work, but the Feint Partner does. I do sorta enjoy the comical aspect of a Hedgehog rolling-up to a highway-man and shaking his toosh just for the poor fellow to be unaware of the tactical nuke rapidly approaching.

Unfortunately, the familiar only has one feat to retrain, so it would be hard to pump up its bluff with the one feat now being Feint Partner. I could give the little guy some slotless items. Now we are truly into the realm of hilarity.

So, I think I recommend you not dip into Rogue until you have at least 10 levels on Alchemist. Level 10 Alchemists can use level 4 Extracts, and there is the Echolocation Extract that gives you Blindsight 40'. Then you Blind your victims with Smoke Bombs and use Echolocation to hit them and do your Rogue Sneak Attack Damage on them.

Honestly, I don't advise you take levels in Rogue at all, but just stick with Alchemist and shoot exploding arrows. Better yet, make yourself a gun like a Dragoon Pistol, and shoot Exploding Bullets. Gnomes have an alternate racial trait where they are automatically proficient in any weapon they craft.

If you were a Vivisectionist and not a Grenadier, you would do Sneak Attack Damage with your arrows that would stack with your Rogue Levels, and then Ranged Feint would make more sense, as would doing something I like: be a Ninja. Take Vanishing Trick and False Attacker. Turning Invisible with Vanishing Trick will reliably let you use Stealth to get hidden and stay hidden. False Attacker lets you make a Bluff Check after making a Ranged Attack from hiding, and if it succeeds, you automatically keep your Stealth, and can keep sniping. Since you are limited to 1 Immediate Action/round, you are 1 Attack/round, but you are already due to Explosive Missile forcing you to make Standard Action Attacks.
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Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Honestly, I don't advise you take levels in Rogue at all, but just stick with Alchemist and shoot exploding arrows.

Who are you and what have you done with Scott Wilhelm?!?

Meirril wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Honestly, I don't advise you take levels in Rogue at all, but just stick with Alchemist and shoot exploding arrows.
Who are you and what have you done with Scott Wilhelm?!?

Well, I've always liked exploding arrows.

If I were making a Grenadier, I might have started with a level in Fighter to get Precise Shot at level 1, but the OP isn't asking for that. I' might have started with an Orc Hornbow, gotten a level in Ranger to use a Wand of Gravity Bow, dipped a level in Living Monolith to use Enlarge Person as a Swift Action, but the OP is a Gnome: he's not interested in size increases.

I guess I could advise him to start off as a Level 1 Fighter for Precise Shot, then go be a Grenadier, but the OP isn't asking for advice like that: he's asking about how to lock in your Sneak Attack Damage at Range when you are a Grenadier Alchemist.

But I appreciate your kind words.
LordAwesome wrote:

Shinoskay : Well, effectively listing everything I know about Pathfinder rules might take a while... *breaths in*

yet, you want people to post exhaustive lists of options for you? Seems rather demanding and ungrateful.

good luck with that.

Gang up helps enable flanking. Flanking is good for melee but isn't valid for ranged attacks. Sorry, it doesn't work.

Blinding the enemy is possible one way or another. Sand bomb works from alchemist, tho' it would only help the next attack. Major magic (dazzling blade) on a melee ally's weapon could work from rogue, but the save DC might be too low to be useful often. Flash powder added via grenadier has both disadvantages but hey, it costs no changes to your build.

hasnt 'gang up' been found by many rule lawyers in this forum to be specific for melee? Some gm's may allow it for ranged but a hard by raw says its only melee, if my research was thorough enough.

Not being contentious, I am actually asking. never know when an errata hit and changed !everything!
APG Faq wrote:

Gang Up: Does this feat (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?

The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)

Thanks for bringing this crucial flaw to my attention. It seems flanking is only a melee thing. My bad, guys.

I'll have to work with the build a little bit more to optimize my -bang-for-buck with what few feats I have. Now I think we can branch out a little bit more and start thinking of feats that can meet the conditions required for sneak attack at range. Extra Discovery for Smoke Bomb maybe?

Now, I think the best two options (which aren't mutually exclusive) are:
1. Have a bunch of Smokesticks on hand for my familar to light up in my space. I will 5-foot sneak out every turn and take my one big shot.
2. Feint Partner with the familiar. The skill itself would "scale" slightly better than most monster's BAB for Feint DC, but it has a rather low Cha to get the successful Feint off.

There are flaws to be overcame with the 2 current methods. Crap with lifesense, smokevision, and other gnarly mobs can just ignore the first method, while rolling poorly with the other method is just as bad. With the second method, there are possible ways of overcoming the DC by boosting the Bluff check, but without item slots, it is kinda hard. Are there any other ways you guys can think of to either shore up the current weaknesses or create a new strength?

One last thing to bring up, about the Hedgehog Tumor Familiar and Archetypes: I don't see that one was assigned to the little guy so if you're genuinely interested in Feint Partner (a Teamwork Feat), here's one way to do it - the Valet Familiar archetype.

For one, this would allow the familiar to retrain their initial feat to Extra Traits and then just pick 2 Traits that synergize around improving their use of the Bluff skill. The second thing is that the Valet familiar archetype means that the familiar always shares any Teamwork feats with its master/mistress.

So the hedgehog gets Extra Traits and also Feint Partner. Also by level 7 the archetype grants the familiar the ability to move before and after an Aid Another action. This is only helpful if you have a way for the hedgehog to be Small sized though. Here is a niche situation though were all these benefits collide:

The Perfect Scenario:
Prior to combat the familiar has been the recipient of a Beast Shape Extract, making it a Small sized Dire Hedgehog. Coming around the corner of (insert setting here) the PCs are within 15' of their foes. Initiative is rolled.

This PC acts before the enemy in initiative order. The hedgehog darts forward, harasses one of the foes the PC intends to target, and rolls a 10 on it's attack roll granting the PC a +2 to attack by virtue of Aid Another; it then darts back to it's master's side. The PC attacks from range, making an attack during a time that the foe is denied it's Dex bonus and gains SA.

Round 2 the foe has raced right up next to the PC and attacked the HEGEHOG (forsooth!) but thankfully the little guy survived. The PC takes a 5' step back as does the familiar. The familiar uses Bluff, Feints, and jukes to the side waving his fanny and making a face to distract the enemy. Said Bluff check succeeds and the foe is momentarily preoccupied with the hedgehog. This gives the PC a chance (through Feint Partner) to target a vital area on the foe and deliver a second attack with an SA rider to the damage.

Obviously a lot of stuff has to come together and work properly for all of these benefits to get applied, so this is a sometimes treat. Still the potential is there for the PC's hedgehog to be the bluffer and the PC to be the Sneak Attacker from range using Feint Partner pretty regularly. The main thing you want to make sure of though is that you pump up the familiar's Bluff check as high as possible.

If your GM is nice and lets you take both a Regional and Social trait on the Tumor Familiar, it can at best keep this as a Cha based skill that is also a Class skill with a +2 bonus. After 7 levels, the PC spending one skill rank/level on Bluff, the familiar has a Bluff +10 (it has a Cha 7). By level 7 you may have 4,000 GP to devote to a magic item to give the little fellow a Cha of 9, making it's Bluff +11. The one downside to the Valet archetype is that it trades out Share Spells so there's not a lot you can do to pump up the familiar's Bluff check past this with consumables and such. Still, having a Bluff +11 versus a DC of 10 + the foe's BAB + the foe's Wis Modifier, at CR 7 you're usually looking at a BAB +6 and a Wis bonus of +2-3, so you're maybe needing the hedgehog to hit a 19 on average... so you're succeeding on 65% of all your Feint checks.

At 4,500 gp the Saltspray Ring gives you a 10' radius obscuring mist. Add in a 8,000 gp Goz Mask to get sight through the mist.

Use the ring on your familiar, so he can activae it on his turn, saving you actions to attack.

/cevah
Cevah wrote:

At 4,500 gp the Saltspray Ring gives you a 10' radius obscuring mist. Add in a 8,000 gp Goz Mask to get sight through the mist.

Use the ring on your familiar, so he can activae it on his turn, saving you actions to attack.

/cevah

Unless you have a familiar capable of speech, your familiar would be incapable of using that ring as per this FAQ... Specifically due to this part:

FAQ wrote:
All familiars can activate the abilities of their use-activated magic items, so long as these abilities do not require a command word.

Unless traded out, they get Speak with Master at 5th level.

Also note that FAQ is a PFS FAQ and not a regular one.

/cevah

Also most improved and some normal familiars can speak.
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