The success effect against the save of Confusion states that "The target babbles incoherently and is stunned 1." And the spell has a duration of 1 minute.
Does the babbling last only 1 action as the stunned condition goes away? Or does it last a minute and shut down caster verbal components for a full minute?
The success effect against the save of Confusion states that "The target babbles incoherently and is stunned 1." And the spell has a duration of 1 minute.
Does the babbling last only 1 action as the stunned condition goes away? Or does it last a minute and shut down caster verbal components for a full minute?
Pretty sure the former.
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The success effect against the save of Confusion states that "The target babbles incoherently and is stunned 1." And the spell has a duration of 1 minute.
Does the babbling last only 1 action as the stunned condition goes away? Or does it last a minute and shut down caster verbal components for a full minute?
It lasts for 1 minute. It's a pretty good spell.
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This is hilarious. As written, you can read it as babbles incoherently for the spell duration which is 1 minute.
However, that's too good to be true. There's no way casting a 4th level spell on a powerful wizard for example who succeeds on their saving throw shuts down their verbal spell casting for 1 whole minute.
I would still laugh if a player tried to pull this, and I enjoyed this post.
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This is hilarious. As written, you can read it as babbles incoherently for the spell duration which is 1 minute.
However, that's too good to be true. There's no way casting a 4th level spell on a powerful wizard for example who succeeds on their saving throw shuts down their verbal spell casting for 1 whole minute.
I would still laugh if a player tried to pull this, and I enjoyed this post.
I mean that's what the Spell does. It has a Duration of 1 minute. I don't see how it could possibly be interpreted differently. A 4th Level Silence cast on the Fighter standing next to the high level Wizard does exactly the same thing, with no Saving Throw at all.
Typically spells with saves and or durations, if you make your save your get a minor effect that lasts for a round. Just have to look at other spells like Paranoia or Slow. Really any spell that causes an unwanted effect on an unwilling target.
So it would only last for the duration of the stun like others have stated.
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I think bable incoherently is flavor text and not an actual effect. The effect is stunned one which is gone after the first round. The one minute duration is in regards to the failed and critically failed rolls.
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I can't see how it could possibly be that you can't possibly see how it could be interpreted differently. Oh wait, my inabilities make for poor argumentation.
I first interpreted the "babble incoherently" as the description represented mechanically by "stunned 1". As in there was a successful save, so the spell isn't getting its full duration, only a token effect that's appropriate with Success for 4th level single target spells.
There was no hiccup there, nor juggling of which way to read it.
And this rules-idolatry alternative interpretation would make Success worse than Failure for many enemies. That's ridiculous.
And technically, "babble incoherently" doesn't mean the target can't cast verbal spells, since it's not a defined condition. Heck, an Aberrant Sorcerer may sound the same as normal.
Also, Silence doesn't do "exactly the same thing" in that it's a touch spell, you're disabling allied casting in the same area, and the enemy can move out of it to cast or use Silent Spell (or simply be out of reach, flying). It takes coordination to implement and has no greater effect like Confusion does.
You never know. Babbles might be a condition in an upcoming release. Rumor has it, those suffering are forced to roleplay the condition for the full duration or suffer Doomed 4.
Typically spells with saves and or durations, if you make your save your get a minor effect that lasts for a round. Just have to look at other spells like Paranoia or Slow. Really any spell that causes an unwanted effect on an unwilling target.
So it would only last for the duration of the stun like others have stated.
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Ray of EnfeeblementHideous Laughter
Zone of Truth
Repulsion
These are all spells that impart a negative effect for the full duration, even on a Successful save. The spells you mentioned specify that the effects last for a shorter duration. This one doesn't.
I think bable incoherently is flavor text and not an actual effect. The effect is stunned one which is gone after the first round. The one minute duration is in regards to the failed and critically failed rolls.
That's unlikely. I can't find any other examples of flavor text for Stunned 1 in a Save based Spell. Also, it doesn't say "The target is Stunned 1 as it babbles incoherently." it says "The target babbles incoherently and is Stunned 1." Those are two separate effects.
I can't see how it could possibly be that you can't possibly see how it could be interpreted differently. Oh wait, my inabilities make for poor argumentation.
...
And this rules-idolatry alternative interpretation would make Success worse than Failure for many enemies. That's ridiculous.
And technically, "babble incoherently" doesn't mean the target can't cast verbal spells, since it's not a defined condition. Heck, an Aberrant Sorcerer may sound the same as normal.
This is a rather inappropriate and overly hostile reaction to me saying that the spell does what it says. Accusing me of rules idolatry is laughable given my posting record. You're free to disagree, but don't attack me.
You would be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that being unable to cast Verbal Spells is worse than being flat-footed, unable to treat anyone as an ally, unable to use Reactions, and unable to cast ANY Spells other than Offensive Cantrips all at once.
I first interpreted the "babble incoherently" as the description represented mechanically by "stunned 1". As in there was a successful save, so the spell isn't getting its full duration, only a token effect that's appropriate with Success for 4th level single target spells.
There was no hiccup there, nor juggling of which way to read it.
As above, there's very little evidence for this.
Also, Silence doesn't do "exactly the same thing" in that it's a touch spell, you're disabling allied casting in the same area, and the enemy can move out of it to cast or use Silent Spell (or simply be out of reach, flying). It takes coordination to implement and has no greater effect like Confusion does.
I can't say with any certainty what babbling does mechanically. Whether it prevents Verbal Spells, Stealth, Communication, or what. That's one of those GM calls that so many of these situations involve. But whatever it does, it does it for 1 Minute, as that is the Spell Duration, and it doesn't say otherwise. If it was meant to last for a shorter Duration, it would say "for 1 Round" like other Spells do.
Assuming the GM rules it as preventing Verbal Spells, Silence is far superior for this effect. It's easier to impose, as there's no Save, your Fighter wants to be close anyway, and the enemy attempting to move away will provoke AoO.
Silent Spell would get around this interpretation of babbling incoherently as well.
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What the spell is supposed to do matters more than what you can argue it says it does. This is supported by both the core rules and Paizo commentary. Babbles incoherently is not a condition, it is a thing that may happen while you suffer other conditions. Such as, for example, the confused condition.
"If it’s impossible for you to attack or cast spells, you babble incoherently, wasting your actions."
Babbling is what you do when you are already wasting actions, such as how the stun condition works.
There is simply too much context to argue babbling lasts a minute. It really doesn't matter what the spell says or could say at a certain point.
Artorin, criticisms of your rhetoric are not attacks on you personally, much less "overly hostile". At least not in a forum based around analyzing arguments.
You'd used personal incredulity and hyperbole to stunt collaborative dialogue (and continue to do so). And to push a strict rules interpretation that, like Captain Morgan and others have pointed out, actually breaks the fundamental rules which govern all interpretations. You'd dismissed other interpretations even existing, when to me yours comes as the surprise. Doing all this seems the epitome of rules idolatry (unless you're saying you'd override that as a GM, of which I've seen no indication). So how would you run this when the Barghest nails the Wizard who gets a Success?
Heck, I just saw a video that defined extremism as the inability to discuss an issue from both sides or accept one might be wrong. Maybe you could try arguing the other side for a moment? Or steelmanning?
Show us you understand the counterarguments.
From the reading of the rule, both arguments are fine. Saying that babbling incoherently last a minute is a strict RAW reading, but the other conditions lasting one minute are said to last one minute so we can argue that it's not supposed to last more than being Stunned.
Anyway, it's not that big of a thing. First, it has a range of 30ft, which is low if you want to hit spellcasters. Also, Clerics and Bards get Resolve at level 9, Druids at level 11, and only Sorcerers and Wizards can be affected afterwards. Monsters are not built with all the characters ability so they may be affected at higher level, but monsters have alternate actions to spellcasting. So, I'm not sure it's that much of a big deal. Giving a character a super effective action when the stars are aligned is not imbalancing the game at all.
Babbling incoherently is only done if you can't reasonably attack or cast spells (such as if you're restrained with no potential threats nearby), it's essentially a catch-all for those situations where none of the conditions for utilizing the Confused condition works. That being said, succeeding at the saving throw does not convey the Confused condition, meaning any rules regarding the Confused condition (such as babbling incoherently) do not apply. It still mentions being "stunned 1" though. So, let's review the Stunned rules then, shall we?
You’ve become senseless. You can’t act while stunned. Stunned usually includes a value, which indicates how many total actions you lose, possibly over multiple turns, from being stunned. Each time you regain actions (such as at the start of your turn), reduce the number you regain by your stunned value, then reduce your stunned value by the number of actions you lost. For example, if you were stunned 4, you would lose all 3 of your actions on your turn, reducing you to stunned 1; on your next turn, you would lose 1 more action, and then be able to use your remaining 2 actions normally. Stunned might also have a duration instead of a value, such as “stunned for 1 minute.” In this case, you lose all your actions for the listed duration.
So, we have two ways the Stunned condition works. If Stunned includes a value, it reduces the number of actions available at the start of your turn equal to the Stunned value. If you do not gain any actions (such as by having a Stunned value equal to or greater than the number of actions you can currently take), you gain no reactions either. If stunned includes a duration (but not a value), it removes all actions and reactions available to take for the listed duration; very powerful, and really only possible on the strongest of abilities with the worst of results.
What does this mean for the Confusion spell? Well, for a successful saving throw, it lists a value (1), which means you follow the value rules for the Stunned condition, which reduces the number of actions you get for the turn by the listed value (1). You otherwise behave normally, because babbling incoherently is tied to a condition you do not possess (Confused), or is done when you can't attack or cast spells, and the Stunned condition, once your action is lost, is removed from you.
Typically spells with saves and or durations, if you make your save your get a minor effect that lasts for a round. Just have to look at other spells like Paranoia or Slow. Really any spell that causes an unwanted effect on an unwilling target.
So it would only last for the duration of the stun like others have stated.
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Ray of Enfeeblement
Hideous Laughter
Zone of Truth
RepulsionThese are all spells that impart a negative effect for the full duration, even on a Successful save. The spells you mentioned specify that the effects last for a shorter duration. This one doesn't.
Well I did say Typically.
I can list the long line of spells that typically follows the same formula as I stated above.
Are you suggesting, by RAW, that if you make a Successful Saving throw vs Confusion that you will suffer the Confusion Condition for 1 minute?
Typically spells with saves and or durations, if you make your save your get a minor effect that lasts for a round. Just have to look at other spells like Paranoia or Slow. Really any spell that causes an unwanted effect on an unwilling target.
So it would only last for the duration of the stun like others have stated.
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Ray of Enfeeblement
Hideous Laughter
Zone of Truth
RepulsionThese are all spells that impart a negative effect for the full duration, even on a Successful save. The spells you mentioned specify that the effects last for a shorter duration. This one doesn't.
Well I did say Typically.
I can list the long line of spells that typically follows the same formula as I stated above. I've already made clear what I believe the spell does. I'm not going to rehash it.
Are you suggesting, by RAW, that if you make a Successful Saving throw vs Confusion that you will suffer the Confusion Condition for 1 minute?
No. I never said that. I've already said what I believe the Spell does. I'm not going to rehash it.
The fact that this discussion exists shows that it is poorly written and requires errata.
Stunned, as the condition is worded, can either have a value (how many total actions you lose) or a duration (a time period during which you lose all actions).
There's no such thing as "stunned 1 for 1 minute" at least not unless that's what you've decided to call "slowed 1 for 1 minute" which is what losing 1 action every turn for a minute is according to the rules text.
Further, the text of the confusion spell itself explicitly says "for 1 minute" on the failure and critical failure results while not having it on the success result. This means that the general details mentioning a duration of 1 minute is either A) a friendly reminder of the longest the spell can last, or B) a typo which should actually say "varies" if not just be removed.
But it's definitely not a super-secret override of the condition referenced by the spell's rules.
Nobody has argued that the Stunned 1 Condition lasts for more than 1 Action.
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None of the arguments here have been particularly convincing. There is no reason that a single result cannot produce 2 effects with different duration. For example, a Failed Save on Color Spray inflicts Stunned 1, Blinded for 1 Round, and Dazzled for 1 Minute.
However, it was pointed out to me that a Failed Save vs Confusion allows a new Save each Turn, so it doesn't really make sense for a Success to affect you for a full minute with no new Save. Because of that, I will concede that the babbling probably only lasts until the Stunned expires.
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The 1-minute duration exists to restate that that maximum time that it can affect an enemy is 1 minute as clarified in the Failure and Crit Failure results. Perhaps it would have been better worded as "up to 1-minute" I supposed.
Bear in mind that "babbles incoherently" DOES have a place in the rules as part of the Confused Condition but it's actually more/less the most severe of any effects of that Condition since it makes you lose ALL of your Actions while impacted this way.
As it stands if the interpretation that "babbles incoherently" section applies for 1-minute as written then the Success result is actually WORSE for the target enemy than if the Failure or even Critical Failure effect since it includes no caveat that they can roll a new save every round and the "babbles incoherently" section of the Confused Condition is by far the WORST outcome of at effect since it is the most severe consequence in that ALL actions are lost. I don't think they'd bother printing Stunned 1 (which expires 1 round later) if you already lose ALL of your Actions for a full minute. If the babbling lasts for a minute it would effectively be Stunned 4 Condition except it doesn't end up getting reduced each round until 1 minute at which point it expires entirely.
The effect of babbling as stated there exists to indicate that you spend the lost Action from the Stunned Condition babbling instead of just having a generic loss of action.
There is no way a 4th level spell results in the total loss of ALL ACTIONS over the course of a minute is the correct interpretation, the spell doesn't even have the Incapacitation Trait and if someone wants to run the spell like this then it would be bar-none the BEST spell in the game.
Look at it like this, if the babbles lasts a minute this is the spread for saving results.
Confusion is cast, four things can happen:
1) Crit Sucess - Enemy is unaffected
2) Success - Enemy loses all Actions for a minute
3) Failure - Enemy gains the Confused Condition for 1 minute and can make a new save every round
4) Crit Failure - Enemy is Confused for 1 minute with no chance to roll another save
There is NO WAY situation #2 is supposed to be worse than #3 and #4. Interpreting it in this way makes no sense at all and anyone trying to push for this at their table needs to be knocked upside the head by their GM for trying to intentionally misinterpret the rule and fudge things to their advantage.
You don't lose any action by babbling incoherently. Confused description is quite clear: You babble incoherently, wasting your actions. The wasting your actions is the important part. Babbling just prevents you to speak or cast spells with verbal components.
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Right... it's spelled out right there, you babble incoherently wasting your actions, so instead of doing literally anything at all, you stand there spouting gibberish without being able to move, strike, cast spells, sustain effects, take reactions, or even hold your breath. The actions you take I suppose ARE "Babble" Actions though...
I'm not sure how that's much different than "losing your actions." I don't see what you're talking about how it interacts with speaking or spells with components only, it clearly states that when you babble in this manner you waste your Actions, PLURAL Action>s< with no defining number which would mean ALL actions.
Sorry, I haven't been clear. Success doesn't say that you lose any action, it's just says you babble. Babbling and losing actions are disconnected, so your point doesn't hold.
In the Confused condition, you don't lose your actions because you babble, you babble and you lose your actions. These are two different effects.
Anyway, RAI I think you're right, but per RAW you are supposed to babble for one minute, without losing actions.
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You don't lose any action by babbling incoherently. Confused description is quite clear: You babble incoherently, wasting your actions. The wasting your actions is the important part. Babbling just prevents you to speak or cast spells with verbal components.
Tell me where in the confused condition it says that's what babbling does.
You don’t have your wits about you, and you attack wildly. You are flat-footed, you don’t treat anyone as your ally (though they might still treat you as theirs), and you can’t Delay, Ready, or use reactions.
You use all your actions to Strike or cast offensive cantrips, though the GM can have you use other actions to facilitate attack, such as draw a weapon, move so that a target is in reach, and so forth. Your targets are determined randomly by the GM. If you have no other viable targets, you target yourself, automatically hitting but not scoring a critical hit. If it’s impossible for you to attack or cast spells, you babble incoherently, wasting your actions.
Each time you take damage from an attack or spell, you can attempt a DC 11 flat check to recover from your confusion and end the condition.
The only thing the confused condition mentions about with babbling incoherently is if you are unable to strike or cast spells (such as being restrained), and as a result, you're wasting your actions by babbling incoherently. That's it. Nothing else.
This whole concept of "babbling incoherently means you can't cast spells" is all made up, and it's not stated anywhere in any rules. It's a completely disingenuous argument not based on any fact.
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Generally speaking, I think this most certainly could be cleared up as it's definitely something that's open to interpretation and perspective.
I think the cleanest way to do this is simply get rid of the text stating that they're babbling in the Sucess Results and replace it with "X" with X being whatever they REALLY intended to communicate by stating they babble since well... babbling isn't really a Condition nor is it defined anywhere except the last portion of the Confused Condition.
Perhaps a Babbling Condition that states what is going on mechanically would be a better option?
It looks almost like the babbling component of the effect was intended to communicate what the character is actually DOING with that 1 Action that is lost from Stunned 1 but on the other hand... I'm not really seeing any other spells with the CS/S/F/CF descriptions that include purely "flavor" descriptions. As far as I see all other spells include pretty rigidly worded mechanical effects in these lines or otherwise are very clear in regards to what it means. It's ambiguous in the least but I still maintain that this whole thing falls into the "If it looks too good to be true, it' probably isn't" category of things. Even with just preventing (most) spellcasting or any form of communication for a minute that's just WAY too powerful for a 4th level spell without the Incapacitation Trait since it would turn any boss-type spellcaster into what effectively amounts to a bag of HP with no offensive or defensive abilities.
Tell me where in the confused condition it says that's what babbling does.
I think a dictionary can help you on that :D
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I personally would be extremely shocked if the 'babble incoherently' description wasn't just that: a description to go with stunned 1.
The spell is exactly as good as it should be with Stunned 1 on a successful save. If it was intended to do more, PF2E's design style would have made it explicit.