Moving in formation


Advice


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If a group of characters or creatures wanted to move together, such as in a phalanx or similar formation, how would they be able to do so per the rules?

The goal, of course, being to hold the formation (and its benefits) and not allow any common enemy to disrupt it.


Have a leader call comands, after delaying. Then everyone delay to act after them.


Tursic wrote:
Have a leader call comands, after delaying. Then everyone delay to act after them.

Works until sombody has reactions ready...


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Similarly there's an NPC in a PFS scenario that has a one action "give orders"-like ability, that lets his allies spend their reaction to stride.

So rules as written you have:
So you have the everyone delay approach.
So you have the everyone ready approach.

And after that we're looking at various custom/new feats/spells/etc that are 'commander' like.


In exploration mode, staying in formation is trivial. Arrange the miniatures into the formation and tell the GM, "We are moving in this formation."

In encounter mode, staying in formation is more difficult. One method is to delay to have consecutive turns. Then each character moves one by one, but it looks more simualtaneous since no-one else is moving between their turns. This method, alas, gives up the safety of spreading the turns out so that someone in he party can always respond soon to an enemy's actions. An encounter where first all enemies take their turn and then all party members take their turn is more brutal.

The other method is to use Ready. Designate one party member as the pacesetter. Everyone else Readies an action to move when the pacesetter moves. This burns up a lot of actions and limits the party to one Stride per round. This would look more realistic, though, since troops in formation move at a steady march rather than hustling like adventurers. If a character besides the pacesetter needs to take two non-Stride actions in a turn, then switch the pacesetter designation over to that character.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mathmuse wrote:
An encounter where first all enemies take their turn and then all party members take their turn is more brutal.

Really? I've heard quite the opposite. An encounter where the enemy comes to you and which your group can coordinate actions (such as PCs not having to worry so much about getting knocked out before they can take a turn right after being healed) is much more beneficial.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
An encounter where first all enemies take their turn and then all party members take their turn is more brutal.
Really? I've heard quite the opposite. An encounter where the enemy comes to you and which your group can coordinate actions (such as PCs not having to worry so much about getting knocked out before they can take a turn right after being healed) is much more beneficial.

It's more nuanced.

An enemy spending actions moving toward you isn't spending them harming you, so it's beneficial that this happens.

But the more enemies get to take their choice of actions without any interference from a PC, the more likely it becomes that one or more PCs are dying. Same as the reverse when the whole party gets better initiative than all of the monsters in an encounter; the monsters might not even get a turn as a result.

Shadow Lodge

Formation fighting doesn't really work in PF2 (or any D&D variant since at least D&D3.0): Beyond the 'individual turn' action order, there is a basic issue of density.

Simply put, PF2 only allows one small or medium creature per 5' (1.5m) square, while formation fighting typically squeezes a lot more troops into the available space. Offhand, I'm going to guess a proper formation would have at least 9 soldiers per 10' (3m) square as opposed to the 4 creatures allowed in PF2 (this is why most classic formations use spears, pikes, or short swords: You don't typically have enough room to swing a slashing or bludgeoning weapon effectively). It is this density of troops that makes a formation effective: There is little-to-no gap between shields and you get more attacks for the same amount of space facing the opponent. Without this level of density, you're really just a couple of warriors standing several feet apart from one another.

Additionally, orientation was a major drawback of many formations: A phalanx was devastating to anyone in front of them, but if an opponent got on their flank or behind them, they were fatally flawed (most weapons can't really be swung around easily in a dense formation like that). Since character orientation was dropped a long time ago, you'd really need to add it back into the game to make any shield wall techniques work.

I seem to recall that D&D1.0 actually tried to account for a lot of this (map squares were 10', shields worked on a specific facing only, and weapons had a 'space required to use' stat) but this was all dropped in subsequent editions as unneeded complications.


Ravingdork wrote:

If a group of characters or creatures wanted to move together, such as in a phalanx or similar formation, how would they be able to do so per the rules?

The goal, of course, being to hold the formation (and its benefits) and not allow any common enemy to disrupt it.

I have my players describe their formation, and then "plop down" them onto the battlemat in precisely that formation when initiative is rolled.

Asking players to move sequentially, and thus potentially start an encounter 75 or more feet away from the rest of the group, just doesn't work.

You just have to assume everybody moves simultaneously in Exploration mode. You know, like real life.


This is something needed especially for Champion. With the need to stay close to allies in order to use a good chunk of the class abilities, being able to move in formation with them would be really useful.

The Champion's Reaction can usually only be used as long as allies are within 15 ft. Also consider Shield Warden where the Champion can only use the ability to protect adjacent allies.

To homebrew something, I would base it on the Ranger feat Relentless Stalker, but have it apply to adjacent allies instead of enemies.

Relentless Guard
Reaction
Trigger: an adjacent ally moves away from you.
Effect: You stride up to your speed in order to stay adjacent to the ally throughout their entire movement.

The biggest problem that I can see with this is that it would take up the reaction. Unless you have additional reactions per round (which I think Champion does get), or the protective ability you are using doesn't require a reaction, then it isn't going to be useful.

Maybe a similar type of feat, but used by the person being protected.

Wait For Me
Reaction
Trigger: an adjacent ally moves away from you.
Effect: You stride up to your speed in order to stay adjacent to the ally. You can stay in position such that the ally provides soft cover for you through the entire movement.

So then the squishy character can use the reaction to stay behind the Champion that is protecting them.


Based on PF1 there are 3 easy feat options for potential teamwork feats to introduce:

1) Coordinated Charge. Pre-req Sudden Charge. Level 20. 2 actions. Trigger when ally with this feat uses Sudden Charge. You may use Sudden Charge as well.

2) Coordinated Step. Level 12. Reaction. Trigger ally with this feat uses a step action, and both are threatening the same enemy. You may make a Step action as a reaction. You are Slowed 2.

3) Stick Together. Level 6. Reaction. Trigger adjecent ally with this feat uses a Stride action with within your stride range. You may make a Stride action ending adjecent to the ally who triggered the feat. You are Slowed 2.

* I gave levels based on how I think PF2 values things. If you think they are wrong just change them.

Sovereign Court

Staying in formation during Exploration should not be a problem. As the good book (the other good book) states:

Gamemastery Guide p. 12 wrote:

PLACING CHARACTERS ON THE MAP

If the PCs are already moving on a grid, as often happens
in small dungeons, you already know where they are
when they roll initiative. If they’re moving in free-form
exploration, place them on the map when they roll
initiative. The fastest way is to have the players set up
their miniatures in a basic marching order ahead of time,
then just move them onto the map in that formation.

When that doesn’t work, such as when one or more
PCs were in a different location or the map doesn’t fit
the marching order, you can either set up the PC minis
yourself, then ask if everybody is happy with where they
are, or have the players place their own minis. If you
find having the players do it themselves causes too much
indecision (especially if they try to count out distances in
advance), you can switch methods. Remember to place
characters using Stealth in reasonable places to hide,
even if that means you have to adjust the marching order
to do so.

Exploration tactics also imply a bit of the marching order; characters using Avoid Notice being placed in positions that actually allow them to Stealth.

Also, characters performing Search should probably be at the front of the party because moving at 150ft/m only guarantees that that particular character doesn't step into anything before having a chance to search it. So a Searching character all the way at the back might not see a trap on time to save a frontline character from triggering it.

The Scout tactic says "You scout ahead and behind the group to watch danger, moving at half speed." implying that character won't be in the middle of a packed formation.

Nitpick: the Search tactic requires a speed of 150ft to prevent you from bumping into anything you haven't at least had a roll against. The Detect Magic tactic requires 150ft to ensure the party doesn't walk into an aura without knowing it. So the squishy wizard is welcome to stay in the middle of the party.

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