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I have put together a document that compiles every possible combination for all 16 classes. It's just the stat stuff and the level progression table for each combination. Feel free to take a look. Any feedback would be appreciated.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hLYFNPItfVW81uoRVur0hBXaM9ZtcUG3
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I have put together a document that compiles every possible combination for all 16 classes. It's just the stat stuff and the level progression table for each combination. Feel free to take a look. Any feedback would be appreciated.
Linkified the guide in the quote.
Also: You should post this over in the Guide to the Guides thread.
Gonna dig into this some. At a glance, this looks pretty cool (and VERY chonky). Might consider a table of contents, page hyperlinks, or something similar to help with the chonk.
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Because I already have a Dual-classed character, I already noticed 1 mistake on your chart (which is very long and thorough, including classes that are not even available yet!). You get "every thing from both classes except hit points and starting skills", according to the book. However, your chart seems to say that you must choose between the Class stat bonus from just 1 of your classes, when in fact you get both. For instance, I'm a Ranger/Wizard dual-class, so I get either Str or Dex for the Ranger part, AND Int for the Wizard part, it's not just 1 chosen from all 3 stats.
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My immediate thought is that you're still including redundant features.
For example, Champion/Fighter gets lightning reflexes at 9, alertness at 11, and armor mastery at 17, despite all of these features doing nothing because you already have the proficiencies.
Also, the potential for 120-odd unique combo names like Hunter and Skald is a possibility...
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Linkified the guide in the quote.
Also: You should post this over in the Guide to the Guides thread.
Gonna dig into this some. At a glance, this looks pretty cool (and VERY chonky). Might consider a table of contents, page hyperlinks, or something similar to help with the chonk.
Thanks, will post there. This is still in the early stages. I completed about week or so ago and just did the latest update Friday. Still have a lot of work to do.
Because I already have a Dual-classed character, I already noticed 1 mistake on your chart (which is very long and thorough, including classes that are not even available yet!). You get "every thing from both classes except hit points and starting skills", according to the book. However, your chart seems to say that you must choose between the Class stat bonus from just 1 of your classes, when in fact you get both. For instance, I'm a Ranger/Wizard dual-class, so I get either Str or Dex for the Ranger part, AND Int for the Wizard part, it's not just 1 chosen from all 3 stats.
In my previous version I had it laid out that way. After some thought and I decided against it. I explain my reasoning for that in the guide. Class is only meant to give one bonus. Since both classes give a bonus you would need to eliminate one. In cases where it's the same bonus they auto eliminate. However, when they offer different bonuses they become a choice. This keeps the character in line with the standard character build and eliminates certain builds being super powered compared to others. It's reinforced during leveling in that you don't get your attribute bonus twice, since one would be for one class and the other would be for the other one.
It's clear that character builds are meant to be in line with others with the exception that you gain both class features that aren't shared. Such as class feats.
My immediate thought is that you're still including redundant features.
For example, Champion/Fighter gets lightning reflexes at 9, alertness at 11, and armor mastery at 17, despite all of these features doing nothing because you already have the proficiencies.
Also, the potential for 120-odd unique combo names like Hunter and Skald is a possibility...
Yeah, there is still a lot of work to do. Finding redundancies is tough when some are using different names, although if they have any variation I can't eliminate them if that variation affects a different element.
I like the idea of adding names. 120 is a lot to think of though.
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Since both classes give a bonus you would need to eliminate one.
I have to agree with Samurai: dual class clearly spells out what you exclude and what you include: : "every thing from both classes except hit points and starting skills". The only other thing about multiple bonuses is that you can't increase the same stat in the same step* so you aren't violating anything by getting 2 key stats. I see nothing in the dual class rules that transforms multiple key stats into multiple options instead. So unless you take 2 classes that only allow one choice and it's the same choice, you'll get 2 key stat bonuses to your character.
*[unless you are using the optional extra flaw and only in a stat that already has a flaw]
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It's a part of the Character Creation rules, but it's also listed under each class, making it unclear.
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It's a part of the Character Creation rules, but it's also listed under each class, making it unclear.
Ability Boosts Core Rulebook pg. 20
"However, when you gain multiple ability boosts at the same time, you must apply each one to a different score.": so no duplicate boosts.
Ancestries and Class Sidebar
"The summaries of the classes on pages 22–23 list each class’s key ability score—the ability score used to calculate the potency of many of their class abilities. Characters receive an ability boost in that ability score when you choose their class.": You pick TWO classes and when you pick a class you get a boost in your key stat so... Seems mighty clear to me.
Dual-Class PCs Gamemastery Guide pg. 192
"Then, when you get to the step of choosing a class, select two classes and add everything from each class except Hit Points and starting skills: initial proficiencies, class features, class feats, extra skill feats and skill increases for rogues, and so on.": So you add everything except hp and starting skills which means key stats are in. We've already determined that EACH time you choice a class you get a boost in your key stat and you pick two classes with this rule, it logically follows you get two boosts as long as they are in different stats.
So it seems pretty clear. If you disagree, please quote what you think is unclear and point to what you think doesn't follow the quotes I posted.
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It's a part of the Character Creation rules, but it's also listed under each class, making it unclear.Ability Boosts Core Rulebook pg. 20
"However, when you gain multiple ability boosts at the same time, you must apply each one to a different score.": so no duplicate boosts.
Ancestries and Class Sidebar
"The summaries of the classes on pages 22–23 list each class’s key ability score—the ability score used to calculate the potency of many of their class abilities. Characters receive an ability boost in that ability score when you choose their class.": You pick TWO classes and when you pick a class you get a boost in your key stat so... Seems mighty clear to me.
Dual-Class PCs Gamemastery Guide pg. 192
"Then, when you get to the step of choosing a class, select two classes and add everything from each class except Hit Points and starting skills: initial proficiencies, class features, class feats, extra skill feats and skill increases for rogues, and so on.": So you add everything except hp and starting skills which means key stats are in. We've already determined that EACH time you choice a class you get a boost in your key stat and you pick two classes with this rule, it logically follows you get two boosts as long as they are in different stats.
So it seems pretty clear. If you disagree, please quote what you think is unclear and point to what you think doesn't follow the quotes I posted.
Source Gamemastery Guide pg. 193
A dual-class character gains the class feats and class features for both classes at each level as they advance, with the exception of ability boosts, general feats, skill feats, and skill increases—the character gets each of these benefits only once per level, since both classes would provide the same benefit. (A dual-class rogue/ranger still gets the extra skill feat and skill increase at levels where the other class doesn’t provide them.)If a character gains the same proficiency rank in a statistic more than once, they still use only the highest rank. In the example above, when the cleric gets Alertness at 5th level, they wouldn’t change their Perception rank, since it was already expert due to the ranger’s initial proficiencies.
I think it was pretty clear that was a step of character creation, and isn't mentioned any other time ability boosts are mentioned. But I'm glad the GMG clarified that.
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Here's my overall logic in why you only get one stat bonus from the class combination (I've messaged Mark for ruling so if I'm wrong it will be an easy fix).
I'll use skills as an example since it's fully explainable.
Per CRB if you would gain a skill from background or class that you have already you may trade it out. That's because you're gaining your skills from different sources of character design. However in the GMG for dual classing you throw out duplicate skills. That's because they are coming from the same source so you don't get to replace them. In effect you can only gain a skill during one aspect of character creation.
Now let's look at attribute bonuses. You gain them from ancestry, background, and class. These can stack because they are all different sources. However you can't chose the same ability twice during ancestry or background. Class build only increases one stat. Now when we go to building the character as a dual class if it's the same stat bonus you throw it out because you can't apply the same stat twice. However, most builds have different options when combining so they wouldn't get tossed out. So should be kept. However class is only supposed to give one stat bonus, keeping in line with general class build. That means those stats that don't conflict would end up becoming a choice of picking one. This follows core class builds such as the rogue that gets to choose between strength, dexterity, or other. It also keeps in line with advancement since you don't get both bonus increases as you level and keeps multiclass variations on a level playing field.
That's my logic. As I mentioned if Mark says they get to keep all bonuses I'll convert it back.
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Dual classes aren't just one class like the rogue, they get one boost for each class. They still can't go over 18.
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Source Gamemastery Guide pg. 193
A dual-class character gains the class feats and class features for both classes at each level as they advance, with the exception of ability boosts, general feats, skill feats, and skill increases—the character gets each of these benefits only once per level, since both classes would provide the same benefit. (A dual-class rogue/ranger still gets the extra skill feat and skill increase at levels where the other class doesn’t provide them.)If a character gains the same proficiency rank in a statistic more than once, they still use only the highest rank. In the example above, when the cleric gets Alertness at 5th level, they wouldn’t change their Perception rank, since it was already expert due to the ranger’s initial proficiencies.
Well that would be convincing if you JUST looked at it but you failed to quote what the section was you where quoting: "Character Advancement". It has absolutely 0% to do with character creation: it's 100% about advancing your character and that's not what we're talking about. You DO agree we are talking about boosts you get at character creation right?
I think it was pretty clear that was a step of character creation, and isn't mentioned any other time ability boosts are mentioned. But I'm glad the GMG clarified that.
Clarified what now? If it about the quote right above your quote it has nothing to do about character creation.
However in the GMG for dual classing you throw out duplicate skills.
I don't think you do.
Building a Dual-Class Character Gamemastery Guide pg. 192
"For starting skills, apply the skills automatically granted by each class, and then apply the larger number of additional skills." IMO, the general rule about duplicate skills still applies.
Chapter 4: Skills Core Rulebook pg. 233
"Sometimes you might gain training in a specific skill from multiple sources, such as if your background granted training in Crafting and you took the alchemist class, which also grants training in Crafting. Each time after the first that you would gain the trained proficiency rank in a given skill, you instead allocate the trained proficiency to any other skill of your choice.": IMO, you still have 2 sources as you have 2 classes. Steps here doesn't equate sources. It clearly says "apply the skills automatically granted by each class" and to me that's adding skills from 2 sources in that single step.
As to same stat boosts, that has different rules: it's limited by step and not source so you're out of luck there. IMO this isn't an issue as the single stat dual class already has everything built off on a single stat so only needs to boost a single key stat: as such, I don't feel bad they lose out on a boost.
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However in the GMG for dual classing you throw out duplicate skills.I don't think you do.
Building a Dual-Class Character Gamemastery Guide pg. 192
"For starting skills, apply the skills automatically granted by each class, and then apply the larger number of additional skills." IMO, the general rule about duplicate skills still applies.
Chapter 4: Skills Core Rulebook pg. 233
"Sometimes you might gain training in a specific skill from multiple sources, such as if your background granted training in Crafting and you took...
Class bonus isn't a multiple source, it's the same source. For support on the skills take a look at Pathbuilder. Try creating a druid/ranger. Both classes give nature as a skill. Ranger gets 4+Int extra skills, which gives more skills than druid. If you were right without adding anything to Int the remaining skills to pick would be 5, 4 + the replacement for nature. Pathbuilder lists it as 4. Nature is listed as trained, not bumped to expert and no additional skill choice is given. It's the same with champion/cleric who gets religion twice; it's only listed once with no free skill choice. This follows the rule where any duplicate from a class choices is tossed out.
Supporting our original assumption (as I stated in my first reply I thought you got both attributes as well) Pathbuilder, under class bonus, lists your first class choice for bonus and then lets you choose a second one. However, as I've been explaining I think that assumption is wrong and therefore inquiring about it.
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Class bonus isn't a multiple source, it's the same source.
I disagree: multiple classes results in multiple sources. You add class feats even though they are both from class. It's really hard to point to same sources IMO as there is no formal description of a source: however, it's clear what the intent of that rule is and that's if you get granted the same skill that it's not wasted and you get another skill in it's stead.
Secondly, would you argue that a rogue racket [Ruffian] that grants you trained in Intimidation and the Aberrant bloodline that grants training in Intimidation identical/same sources? They both come from a class so by your logic the same source. If not, what is the difference? Starting skills are as much a class feature as either racket or bloodline: "Initial Proficiencies" is listed right there under class features.
For support on the skills take a look at Pathbuilder.
As much as I like the app, it's not an official source of pathfinder rules. So what it does or doesn't do isn't really a factor to me. I'm going 100% by what's in the rules. IMO, both the rules and what I can see the intent is both result in the skill duplication rule working for starting skills from multiple classes.
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I disagree: multiple classes results in multiple sources. You add class feats even though they are both from class. It's really hard to point to same sources IMO as there is no formal description of a source: however, it's clear what the intent of that rule is and that's if you get granted the same skill that it's not wasted and you get another skill in it's stead.
Class feats don't conflict because they are specific to their given class. Any that may have similar traits would then work under standard multiclassing rules, but as worded refer to their specific class or the specific situation they are applied to. However, if there are any redundancies that can't stack the player would have to choose a different class feat for one of the classes. Example: Counter Spell for sorcerer/wizard doesn't increase so the player would choose a different class feat, most likely for wizard since the sorcerer version is spontaneous. Or could keep both and just be able to counter spell more often.
Secondly, would you argue that a rogue racket [Ruffian] that grants you trained in Intimidation and the Aberrant bloodline that grants training in Intimidation identical/same sources? They both come from a class so by your logic the same source. If not, what is the difference? Starting skills are as much a class feature as either racket or bloodline: "Initial Proficiencies" is listed right there under class features.
Yes, they are same source as they both come from a class benefit. Since you are dual classing as rogue and get 7+ skills beyond that one you would pick one of them and discard the other. You gain no others since the racket doesn't give you a choice. However you gained intimidate from your ancestry or background then you could replace it.
You have to remember that if you weren't dual classing there would be no conflict other than cases involving ancestry or background, in which case the rules allow for the swap.
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Class feats don't conflict because they are specific to their given class.
Same for key abilities: when you pick a class, you add a boost to that stat. They are as specific to the class as feats are.
However, if there are any redundancies that can't stack the player would have to choose a different class feat for one of the classes.
Just like you can't boost the same stat twice in the same step...
Yes, they are same source as they both come from a class benefit.
I don't see how, any more than class feats are from the same class benefit. So does a multiclass feat then not work with anything gained from your class as all are class features and by your theory everything granted by your class is the same source, even if it's from a different class?
Since you are dual classing as rogue and get 7+ skills beyond that one you would pick one of them and discard the other.
Why? They aren't from the same class or feature. They aren't any different than say taking ancient elf at first and getting the Sorcerer Dedication that gives you the same intimidate: it a class feat too.
However you gained intimidate from your ancestry or background then you could replace it.
Where does it say that skills gained in the same step are exempt from the general rule? Where does it state that EVERYTHING from a class is the same source? Or that the entire class step is a source onto itself?
You have to remember that if you weren't dual classing there would be no conflict other than cases involving ancestry or background, in which case the rules allow for the swap.
I don't think I have to remember anything as you've failed to prove any conflict. What exactly constitutes a source: unless you come up with a concrete description of that that we all agree on, any argument that is based off of that is moot. No arguments that they are the same source sway me as you can't prove that they are.
Basically, unless you can prove that ALL classes and class features are 1 identical source you can't prove your theory. I don't think I'm saying anything odd when I think a sorcerer class and a rogue class are different from a source stand point and I think it even less strange to say different class features are such. If you ask people is a rogue's racket and a sorcerer's bloodline are identical sources how many people do you think would say yes?
I mean, it says it right there, you don't get the same benefit you would gain at the same level, including ability boosts. 1st level is a level.
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Class feats don't conflict because they are specific to their given class.Same for key abilities: when you pick a class, you add a boost to that stat. They are as specific to the class as feats are.
When you use multiclass rules you don't get to add a new bonus. It's a requirement you have to meet. You gain two misc bonuses from ancestry and background for that. Most builds if you aren't focusing on min/maxing can give you a 16 in two stats. That's more than enough to qualify for multiclass dedication and give a good build for dual classing.
However, if there are any redundancies that can't stack the player would have to choose a different class feat for one of the classes.Just like you can't boost the same stat twice in the same step...
Yes
Yes, they are same source as they both come from a class benefit.
I don't see how, any more than class feats are from the same class benefit. So does a multiclass feat then not work with anything gained from your class as all are class features and by your theory everything granted by your class is the same source, even if it's from a different class?
Since you are dual classing as rogue and get 7+ skills beyond that one you would pick one of them and discard the other.Why? They aren't from the same class or feature. They aren't any different than say taking ancient elf at first and getting the Sorcerer Dedication that gives you the same intimidate: it a class feat too.
We're talking about an ability that gives you a skill. The rules for skills then comes into play under the dual class rules:
Source Gamemastery Guide pg. 193
A dual-class character gains the class feats and class features for both classes at each level as they advance, with the exception of ability boosts, general feats, skill feats, and skill increases—the character gets each of these benefits only once per level, since both classes would provide the same benefit. (A dual-class rogue/ranger still gets the extra skill feat and skill increase at levels where the other class doesn’t provide them.)
If a character gains the same proficiency rank in a statistic more than once, they still use only the highest rank. In the example above, when the cleric gets Alertness at 5th level, they wouldn’t change their Perception rank, since it was already expert due to the ranger’s initial proficiencies.
That means you can only increase a skill once per level. Any other skill gains from other class options are throw out. Though you could house rule they get a different skill for the other.
Since you are dual classing as rogue and get 7+ skills beyond that one you would pick one of them and discard the other.Why? They aren't from the same class or feature. They aren't any different than say taking ancient elf at first and getting the Sorcerer Dedication that gives you the same intimidate: it a class feat too.
Yes you would toss it out or you would either adjust your skills and pick a different one in that case to replace the one your dedication gave you. You are still in character design. It doesn't bump your skill so you would either replace it or toss it out in the case of a conflict.
However you gained intimidate from your ancestry or background then you could replace it.Where does it say that skills gained in the same step are exempt from the general rule? Where does it state that EVERYTHING from a class is the same source? Or that the entire class step is a source onto itself?
As cited above it's in the dual class rules. As @RJGrady points out 1st level is a level.
You have to remember that if you weren't dual classing there would be no conflict other than cases involving ancestry or background, in which case the rules allow for the swap.I don't think I have to remember anything as you've failed to prove any conflict. What exactly constitutes a source: unless you come up with a concrete description of that that we all agree on, any argument that is based off of that is moot. No arguments that they are the same source sway me as you can't prove that they...
I agree there is no point in continuing to debate it at this point until an official rule clarification is provided. We have effectively established our camps. I'm fine if I end up being wrong since I initially was under the same interpretation. Hopefully Mark will answer my email or here or maybe Logan.
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My immediate thought is that you're still including redundant features.
For example, Champion/Fighter gets lightning reflexes at 9, alertness at 11, and armor mastery at 17, despite all of these features doing nothing because you already have the proficiencies.
Also, the potential for 120-odd unique combo names like Hunter and Skald is a possibility...
I went through and fixed the first two types you pointed out so perception and saving throw enhancements that increase to expert have been removed for class combinations that start with expert.
I can't remove armor mastery as that increases defense in those categorizes to master. Same for armor expertise. I will look for redundancies of them though. So thanks again for pointing those out. I will upload the next version once I have eliminated all conflicts between class combinations I find.
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Honestly this conversation is why it'd be really cool if we could get an official ruling on the matter. I could see either argument, though I personally lean more on the side on getting both.
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Honestly this conversation is why it'd be really cool if we could get an official ruling on the matter. I could see either argument, though I personally lean more on the side on getting both.
I agree, and that's why I think there should be a Pathfinder version of the Sage Advice column from 5e. It gives errata, explanations, and advice. Paizo could gather all the questions during a month, and then write the next Sage Advice with answers and explanations. This way, the errata and advice would be gathered in a single place and could be downloaded (the actual errata and explanations/advice could be 2 separate files, as WotC does).
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There's no need for Sage Advice, there's common sense and the rulebook that says:
Ambiguous Rules
Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.
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There's no need for Sage Advice, there's common sense and the rulebook that says:
Ambiguous Rules
Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.
Under normal circumstance I would agree. If it was just for my home campaign then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. However, I am putting together a document that must follow the RAW and so therefore needs the clarification.
It would have been nice if they would have given a complete step by step process with each step explained, but I understand they were limited by constraints. For them to have incorporated a complete class build in the book it would have taken at least 12 pages and most likely around 18-20 pages. My document is currently 240 pages, which is just the listing of initial traits and the advancement chart for each combination. If I incorporated all the class feats and regular class aspects the document would be humongous. So yeah, it would have been nice to have a complete break down, but I understand why they did it the way they did. I think it could use a rewrite to improve and fully explained the process to eliminate confusion.
When I started this project I figured it would be a quick document, taking a week or so to put together. There's a lot to clean up and figure out.
There's no need for Sage Advice, there's common sense and the rulebook that says:
Ambiguous Rules
Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.
There's no need to be abrasive with the "common sense" card like that.
As dm4hire said, at a particular table, of course we can just make the call we feel makes the most sense. This entire thread is about a potentially much more widely used document.
Plus, just in general it'd be nice to know the official stance on stuff like this.
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There's no need for Sage Advice, there's common sense and the rulebook that says:
Ambiguous Rules
Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.
There's no need to be abrasive with the "common sense" card like that.
As dm4hire said, at a particular table, of course we can just make the call we feel makes the most sense. This entire thread is about a potentially much more widely used document.
Plus, just in general it'd be nice to know the official stance on stuff like this.
I agree, but no matter what the "Official ruling" is, we are still open to changing it or reversing it. I added the official errata to my house rules in green ink, and while I used most of them as printed, there were a few that I changed, and I also added quite a bit more to them too.
I agree, but no matter what the "Official ruling" is, we are still open to changing it or reversing it. I added the official errata to my house rules in green ink, and while I used most of them as printed, there were a few that I changed, and I also added quite a bit more to them too.There's no need for Sage Advice, there's common sense and the rulebook that says:
Ambiguous Rules
Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.
There's no need to be abrasive with the "common sense" card like that.
As dm4hire said, at a particular table, of course we can just make the call we feel makes the most sense. This entire thread is about a potentially much more widely used document.
Plus, just in general it'd be nice to know the official stance on stuff like this.
Of course. I never stated otherwise.
In the /wizards advancement sections, you include a first level wizard feat. That is no longer the case.
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Major update on my Dual Class document, bumping it to 2.0.
Besides redundancies still being eliminated I have added the Class Feat lists and Spells Per Day charts for all class combinations in the guide. I've also added in a section for alternative rules I hope to expand. Page count is now over 400.
As far as core material, I think that's the extent of what will be added until the APG is released and I can update the lists for corrective purposes. Will continue with redundancy fixes for now.