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A situation occurred in my past game. A large monster with improved grab and burrow speed was able to hold to one of the PCs and began to sink into the sand carrying the PC. We were in a desert region with dunes. Due to my carelessness, I did not notice the restrictions between grabbing and moving. The fight continued to be very tense until one of the players alerted me to the mistake I was making. We ended up losing most of the session by discussing rules.
My question is this ...
Even a huge creature, which does not have the ability to swallow, will never be able to grab and carry a small creature?
The Giant Eagle and the Gogiteth (and presumably others?) both have abilities that say they can move while having a creature grabbed. So unless a creature has an ability that grants the ability to do that, it seems otherwise impossible.
I use house rules to allow a very limited form of movement while grabbing, but within the rules we'll need some sort of feat to make it generally possible. And even then creatures will usually need a special ability to make it work since they don't have feats the way players do.
As far as I can tell, a Gargantuan creature can't carry off a tiny creature after grabbing it unless it has an ability that specifically allows movement with a grab.
Correct, and I am sure designers are aware of that but somehow don't want to address it.
Or the way they addressed it was to leave it up to DM fiat like a LOT of the game. ;P
There "should" be a drag action.
It's an easy houserule to do: roll for shove and add 5' for each size smaller than yourself: so a Gargantuan creature that grabs a tiny creature can move up to 25' on a success or up to 30' on a crit with the creature.
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Given some PF1 shenanigans, I can understand the change. In a struggle among enemies within "normal" level range of each other, carrying somebody does represent significant dominance which may be unjustified w/o a special ability. And there are a dozen or more monsters that have some way to carry you off, so while PCs can't do it, they can expect it to experience it.
For narrative purposes, the person/monster could knock out the target first. Until then, their victim's just struggling too much to easily carry.
If you're dominant enough, you could shove & grab each round to move your opponent somewhere.
Shove/Shove/Grapple
When you consider how brief rounds are, this is decent progress with a struggling victim. Then they Ready to move when you Shove, so you slap them into compliance or Ready to grab them when they try to dash. Pretty iconic skulduggery there.
For Gargantuan vs. Tiny, shoving will often be simple since the power levels will be so different. The Gargantuan guy may not be able to fully pick up the critter, but they can slap them around and corral them.
I might allow a rare case of Restrained allowing you to carry off somebody, yet I'd be wary about the ramifications, more for the PCs' sake!
Starting to appreciate Whirling Throw a bit more now.
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Given some PF1 shenanigans, I can understand the change. In a struggle among enemies within "normal" level range of each other, carrying somebody does represent significant dominance which may be unjustified w/o a special ability. And there are a dozen or more monsters that have some way to carry you off, so while PCs can't do it, they can expect it to experience it.
For narrative purposes, the person/monster could knock out the target first. Until then, their victim's just struggling too much to easily carry.If you're dominant enough, you could shove & grab each round to move your opponent somewhere.
Shove/Shove/Grapple
When you consider how brief rounds are, this is decent progress with a struggling victim. Then they Ready to move when you Shove, so you slap them into compliance or Ready to grab them when they try to dash. Pretty iconic skulduggery there.For Gargantuan vs. Tiny, shoving will often be simple since the power levels will be so different. The Gargantuan guy may not be able to fully pick up the critter, but they can slap them around and corral them.
I might allow a rare case of Restrained allowing you to carry off somebody, yet I'd be wary about the ramifications, more for the PCs' sake!
Starting to appreciate Whirling Throw a bit more now.
Thanks , i think your reply is very reasonable.
At least as an American, I think professional wrestling has made people think that it is relatively easy to just grab someone by the hair and drag them around, but moving someone while maintaining control over them the whole time is very difficult. I thing the shove, move, grab represents the drag fairly well, including the difficulty of remaining in control at the end of the action.
As far as I can tell, a Gargantuan creature can't carry off a tiny creature after grabbing it unless it has an ability that specifically allows movement with a grab.
If we are speaking of a Tiny creature of the level of the Gargantuan creature, then the Tiny creature has already an Acrobatics/Athletics level very close to the Gargantuan creature one. So the rules are quite logical.
If the Tiny creature is a level 15 Sprite Wizard, I would expect some kind of resistance to the Dragon trying to move it. Not because it's big and tough, but because it's a hero!| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Aikido or judo would represent advanced techniques best represented by class feats, not generic grab and pulls that any creature can do. There is a pit of a problem with shove requiring moving away from you , making repositioning not something anyone can do, but I think the key with the grab and move concept in PF2 is that the default is that it requires 3 actions, 2 checks with map, and is difficult to maintain a grab through.
If you want a dragon with a special ability to grab and move, it is really easy to give it one.
At least as an American, I think professional wrestling has made people think that it is relatively easy to just grab someone by the hair and drag them around, but moving someone while maintaining control over them the whole time is very difficult. I thing the shove, move, grab represents the drag fairly well, including the difficulty of remaining in control at the end of the action.
odd, I do this like all the time with my niece and nephew
as does my friend with his 5-year old(though in my case it’s while we’re playing and in his it’s “oh, you don’t want to get into your car seat? I’ll just grab you and strap you in” - talk about “while maintaining control over them the whole time”)
all three of which are larger and heavier than the average gnome
and neither of us are over 6’ or 200#
so no, in the real world this “cannot do that” isn’t a thing when size differences are involved
oh yeah, and we’re both from the States
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odd, I do this like all the time with my niece and nephew
as does my friend with his 5-year old
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so no, in the real world this “cannot do that” isn’t a thing when size differences are involved
And, uh, are your nieces / nephews or his 5-year old adventurers with 18 strength? Earth logic doesn't work on PCs.
And personally, I'd be veeery careful applying extra differences to size categories beyond what's currently in the game. I know there were more in PF1, but that's kind of part of the reason why it's not a great idea. Smaller races were easier to mess with, but also better at hiding due to their size. in PF2 there's nothing to balance that out anymore.
in PF2e, there’s nothing like real world size
these are the actual boxing division weights for real world humans:
minimumweight, 105 pounds (48 kg)
light flyweight, 108 pounds (49 kg)
flyweight, 112 pounds (51 kg)
super flyweight, 115 pounds (52 kg)
bantamweight, 118 pounds (53.5 kg)
super bantamweight, 122 pounds (55 kg)
featherweight, 126 pounds (57 kg)
super featherweight, 130 pounds (59 kg)
lightweight, 135 pounds (61 kg)
super lightweight, 140 pounds (63.5 kg)
welterweight, 147 pounds (67 kg)
super welterweight, 154 pounds (70 kg)
middleweight, 160 pounds (72.5 kg)
super middleweight, 168 pounds (76 kg)
light heavyweight, 175 pounds (79 kg)
cruiserweight, 200 pounds (91 kg)
heavyweight, unlimited
that’s 17 divisions
if this was extended to fantasy world humanoids, that top one wouldn’t be “unlimited” and that list would continue significantly in both directions
do you know why Sugar Ray Leonard is considered one of the greatest boxers of all time?
because he won world titles in five
there’s a reason why the phrase “punching above your weight” is, well, an actual phrase
no, PF2e isn’t even vaguely reality (or realistic) in this regards
Sugar Ray punched as far above his weight as almost anyone in real world history
yet even so, he had zero chance of defeating a cruiserweight or heavyweight title contender
and had he been 3’2”, and his proportionate weight, any large or huge, let alone gargantuan, sized beastie which hadn’t collapse under its own weight could have picked him up and carried him wherever it would have liked
real world physics is a harsh mistress that doesn’t leave room for the types of shenanigans being discussed here
the PF1e size chart was solid
as solid a mechanism as has ever existed in any RPG
that it was deprecated between editions speaks volumes
queue the laughing raccoon
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Regarding moving people
Moving children tends to be easy because A) they lack muscle and weight B) they aren't armed and trying to kill you
Doing so with a lion or wolf however is... less reliable :P. Same deal when doing it against a child with a knife or gun.
In my games I do allow movement however as it is a fantasy environment.
My houserules are:
1. Shove doesn't break grapple if you move with the target.
2. Pull is a separate action and works as shove but is instead pulling and has a hard DC adjustment.
3. As a general rule for every size difference of 2 or more I adjust the DC by 1 difficulty step for forced movement. E.G. shoving a tiny creature as a medium creature has an easy adjustment (DC -2) and a huge creature shoving a medium creature has a very easy adjustment (DC -5). *
4. An ally freeing another ally does so with a hard check vs the original escape DC.
* Tbh I rarely actually apply it against players (not that they know this) and is more to give them a feeling of size when they become large or huge. Creatures that need dragging abilities can just be given dragging abilities.
I was just talking about this point recently on Discord.
There are no provisions to allow (say) Megaprimatus (= King Kong) to carry Fae Wray up the side of the nearest skyscraper.
I was told that Jason Bulmahn simply required additional Atheltics checks to move a smaller grabbed creature around. I have no reference for this.
IMHO, there should be a default "grab and carry" action, assuming that the bulk of the target creature (and their gear) are not an issue. Perhaps a houseruled version could look something like this:
A grabbed or restrained creature of at least 2 sizes smaller than the grabbing creature can be moved at half speed on a successful Athletics check to maintain the grab. Dead or unconscious victims can be moved at full speed, assuming their bulk value soes not impinge on the grabbing creature's carrying capacity.
It's a pity there is no default rule for this. It's up to individual DMs to adjudicate whatever houserule fits their fantasy.
So, let me preface this by saying homebrew can obviously be whatever you want and whatever feels right for your table. But, ultimately, I feel like there's a much simpler way to handle this if you want to allow it. It's difficult, but if you manage to do it ,it's not very punishing from an action economy standpoint.
My idea:
- Due to the extra control implied when a creature is restrained due to a grapple as opposed to grabbed, you are able to move them around as you wish. As for speed, I'd probably go lesser of half speed and what you'd get if you follow the bulk rules for a creature of their size category + equipment, but feel free to change that up.
P.S. This is a side note, but again... please try not to nerf small characters too much now that there's not much to balance it out anymore. As far as I'm aware, the only big mechanical things affected by size are what creatures you can ride effectively, and what creatures you can attempt combat maneuvers against. If you make them notably worse at combat maneuvers than they already are for the purposes of "realism", then you should probably have some kind of benefit as well. Perhaps to stealth and/or thievery, or it could be something else entirely. After all, if someone wants to play a sprite martial character and get titan wrestler because they want to man-handle someone 4 times their height, then I don't know why we should be punishing them for that. They already had to get a feat to do it, and even then, the size categories they can affect are still more limited than they would be if they were medium.
"It's a pity there is no default rule for this. It's up to individual DMs to adjudicate whatever houserule fits their fantasy."
Why's that a pity?
Given how extremely powerful moving somebody proved in PF1, and given the enormous variety in creature & body types, GM's adjudication seems the best route (at least for swift & reasonable play).
It's not all Halflings & Fire Giants, sometimes it's a mere Ogre trying to move an Aurumvorax. Also a hard and fast rule might make small defenders/tanks untenable once minions begin being Large+.
A Roc being able to carry off a PC is really powerful! (And boy do I love scaring my players with situations like that.) Giving that ability to every sizable enemy would be a mistake IMO, at least as PCs progress into unearthly prowess.
Also "fits their fantasy" (as opposed to "fancy") seems pretty important.
A horror genre campaign maybe should have all the larger critters able to carry off a PC so there's instant appreciation of size. An "Against the Giants" heroic campaign would likely want different rules.
I wonder if maybe the devs could fine a line which finesses between all the variables at hand? (Bulk/density, Str, size, shape, combat proficiency, Athletics, etc.)