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I will :) Won't start a boss encounter or something similar before I have tried this on severe encounters and the like.

HumbleGamer wrote:

Is treat wound be considered something like battle medicine in terms of "immunity" or is it going to share regardless the character who use it?

I mean, battle medicine gives the character a combat heal which can be used once per day on every character, but you can be the target of different battle medicine ( resulting in, medicin skill provided, 4 battle medicine per day given a party of 4 players ).

Also, could you explain the difference between healing stamina or hp?

Just discussed it with one of the players (the goblin wizard he thought it sounded ok..but deadly)

I think I will let treat wounds be 'once' per day (maybe if multiple encounters occur it can be applied after all encounter..patching up the wounds. Succes is treating 1 wound. Critical succes 2 (maybe more) I don't want treat wounds to erase all wounds. Treat wounds will not be on the same 'treat clock' as battle medicine retaining the incredible power of battle medicine in combat(but only once pr day). When we get used to this system I might use penalties as your meat hp drops as you suggested

We talked a bit about the healing stamina or healing hp.

1. We will retain all the healing options to heal stamina from the GMG (Steel your resolve, Take a breather etc). Getting your stamina pool back after combat should be easy.
2. When crits are halved damaging both stamina pool and health pool you retain the DR (if you have it) for both pools. ((Crits are going to be much more dangerous and this could help a little bit again encouraging good teamwork, knowledge about the bosses /monster etc).
3. When the cleric heals (using healing font) she can basically choose how to allocate her hp, but will probably mend wounds instead of supplying stamina. Other sources of healing I am a bit unsure should heal stamina.
4. When you reach 0 stam points you are unconscious but can use a resolve point to get back up on your feet (same rules as the stabilize usage for resolve points).

Hope this is a little bit more clear? The above system will make it better for me to roleplay as a gm in combat I think knowing when the hit landed makes the target tired, jumps a little away from the blow etc. or when the hit is hitting flesh

Here is something I'll try out next session (based upon some of your thoughts). It might be expanded but at the moment I'm curious to see how this works out.
The group has a dedicated Saranrae healer (war priest and medicine feats etc.). The group is 6th level at the moment.

1. I use the stamina point system giving them a stamina / luck pool and a hp / meat pool (same as GMG). Also using resolve point and the various feats there. We use free archetype so the feat tax shouldn't be too heavy.

2. Critical hits are split and dealt to both stamina/luck pool and health pool. (Thought about them going directly to hp meat-pool but that is probably too much). It will be very dangerous going up against a vastly superior opponent either a boss or a skilled combatant critting a lot. You don't just get tired fighting superior opponents but can die very easily without teamwork and careful planning. Thought about stamina pool of 0 meaning unconscious (like a boxer), but restorable with magic, potions etc.)

3. The healer can decide to heal stamina or hp. But she will probably focus on hp.

4. Treat wounds is actually treat wounds :) and can heal the injured (meat hp pool) once pr. day (still unsure how to swing this.. might be gimping the ability too much). Battlemedic is similarly retained. You heal one wound pr. day. With critical succes or extended care more wounds can be healed (still a bit unsure here).

Any thoughts or suggestions?


HumbleGamer wrote:

I thought about something similar for a non magic setting.

What came up was essentially based on these 3 points:

Every Armor gives DR, and specific DR

Which means that every enemy hit will be reduced.
Any armor will have General DR plus a specific DR, which would be higher. For example:


Plate: general DR = 1+ Half the character level. Slashing Resistance = 5 + Half the character level

Leather/Hide: general DR = 1+ Half the character level. Bludgeoning Resistance = 5 + Half the character level

Composite/Chain: general DR = 1+ Half the character level. Piercing Resistance = 5 + Half the character level

Characters will also have a portion of their HP as temporary

This is something intended to be recovered while resting ( depends the real wounds, the temporary hp threshold will be reduced ), as not fatal injuries.

Real HP will affect the character acvitivies

Which means that the more you are damaged, the worse for your performance :

For example:


- loosing 1/4 ( rounded down ) real hp will result into a Skill penalty

- loosing 2/4 ( rounded down ) real hp will result into a speed penalty
- loosing 3/4 ( rounded down ) real hp will result into a hit penalty

In adjunct to this, the temp hp cap will decrease, the more you are wounded

To make an example for a lvl 5 character:


Character HP 8 ( ancestry ) + 50 ( class ) + 15 ( 16 const bonus ) + 5 ( toughness ) = 78 hp

1/3 of these 78 hp ( rounded up ) would be transformed into temporary HP, resulting into 52 real hp and 26 temporary hp.

The character is equipping a Chainmail, getting 3 DR against Slashing/Bludgeoning damage and 7 DR against piercing damage.

The character will then suffer some penalties, depends his real hp:

52/52 = no penalties
39/52 = -1 skill checks ( Skills and saves ) [3/4 temp hp]
26/52 = -2 Skill checks ( Skills and saves ) -5 feed speed penalty [2/4 temp hp]
13/52 = -3 Skill checks ( Skills and saves ) -10 feed


Interesting system. I am definitely a fan of doing something more to armor besides the abstract notion of AC (especially since PF2 have started with the shield block as reaction introducing more granularity to that system). In non-magic or limited magic settings armor is really 'magical' and the way it can stop harm is quite incredible (love the youtube channel Tod's workshop, which really examines damage and armor and medieval weapons). Not fun fighting knights with sticks. Not sure how the above works on top of or in conjunction with armor specialization in PF2. But it would be easy to invoke a condition depending on the state of your real hp.


siegfriedliner wrote:

In a realistic system hps can't be meat because the only way that works is if each level you gain more meat or your meat becomes more dense. Which would mean a level 20 character would weigh 20 times as much as a level 1 character.

Which probably leaves hitpoints as luck.

I agree. The hp bloat in higher levels isn't really something you can roleplay as 'meat'.


Castilliano wrote:

One thing that might help (and which I used to wrap my head around PF2's easy recovery of hit points) was to alter the narrative on hit points to be more like stamina than damage (not using the Stamina mechanics though).

So you're tired, your lucks run down, and finally (at 0 h.p.) you start taking Wounds, which are "real" damage.
PF2 already has a minimum recovery time from those of 10 minutes, which could be extended if needed.

But what about those critical hits?
Still just burning luck and one's endurance. An unfortunate side effect of this is it makes it harder to determine how well your ally's doing (or enemy for that matter).

Separately, some systems (including a variant of 3.X) have damage from crits hit a different pool of hit points than normal damage can only get to by draining the other hit points first. In this instance the crits wouldn't be doing more damage, they'd be doing more important damage.
What makes up this extra hit points can vary depending on how lethal you want things to be. One's Con score (total, not just the bonus!) would be one way as could one's 1st level hit points.
Hmm...I guess one could use one's Con's bonus in a slightly different way, where each crit or hit while down on h.p. does 1 damage vs. that bonus then you go do Dying at 0 there. And those could be really hard to recover.

On the flip side I think of Indiana Jones, battered, tattered, and bruised. Yet a night of sleep on a ship and he's active at full force.
In the narrative he's still hurt, but mechanically he's operating fine.
If you talk with the players, they might play along those lines, acting as if battle's taking its toll, but denying aid because they're "fine" when they don't seem fine (yet mechanically are fine).

Then again, magic kinda ruins that (and grittiness in general). There really is this glowy goodness that mends tissue and restores life force. It may take a major retuning of magic, which is funny because a major feature of PF2 (much of this due to playtest feedback!) has...

Good points Castilliano.

I agree with the roleplaying 'hp as stamina works' and hp as a kind of luck might also work. But hp is an 'abstract' currency and the regeneration of pc's is bit weird for me compared to my AD&D, B/X experiences. It is the recovery of those hp's which annoys me especially without magical means it becomes even worse (and medicine has really been bumped in PF2 in that regard :) And I actually think the system in GMG regarding stamina is interesting and something I'll tinker with whilst heavily limiting the hp / side of that pool.

Megistone wrote:
Realism and heroics tend to result in a whole lot of time spent on making new characters.

I agree :) But I'm also not a fan of fantasy characters being super heroes. So I try to maintain a 'semblance' of grittyness' and realism. I think the heroics actually become better the harder odds for the hero :)


Thank you for both of your replies, they are really helpful.
I really like your suggestions Loreguard. I have also primarily run Pathfinder 2E with family (kids, wife and a friend) and they DON'T want to run a grittier version... But something doesn't sit right with me regarding roleplaying the aspects of combat with my adult group (for instance you get hit by a crossbow bolt (and I describe this as a GM).. but suddenly you (the PC) are only a little tried after the hit and after the 3 min of combat are over you are fine again. The adult group are used to playing CoC, White Wolf games and similar and have done some 5e.
I think 'stickier wounds' with some limitations of healing could go a long way for a somewhat more grittier feel (without turning Pathfinder into a Warhammer campaign). I like the options to medicine and would probably tailor that to being even more important than various sources of healing. So for instance magical healing can help some 'small cuts' etc. but more severe and critical wounds require medical attention or more serious magic. i looked at the stamina system and might try and modify that. That seems perhaps an easy path to take.
Anyway thank you for your suggestions.
And yes if I was importing the PF2 engine to a historical setting I would lose some things and maybe limiting spellcasting to archetypes could be a way to do. It is primarly setting a good 'session zero' explaining tone of the campaign and the 'frame/limits' of the setting I guess.

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Hi All

I was wondering if someone had tried homebrewing a few changes into the PF2 engine regarding healing and recovery after combat? Especially I am not that big a fan of the wounds system and the 'regeneration' after combat, which is happening in my games (and in 5e etc.). Saw an old thread on Reddit but that was all I could find.


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Well.. you started calling older books racist :) Which I believe is dumb on so many levels.. ununanced and stereotypical yes and from the 'explorers perspective'.. but the big R-word I use differently than you I guess. I was just hoping for nuanced depictions of other cultures down the Lost Omen line ( Cheliax) as we seemingly get now from Mwangi. And yes I do believe that The Pathfinder Society at my table is treated with nuance not as an 'all light, good and happy' society but filled with greed and desire for magical objects, explorations and fame like the explorers of old. That is untill we get the 'bad evil' society explained in detail, which I similarly hope we get (Aspis Consortium). I do believe I have responded in good faith in this thread and I am grateful for especially Michael's explanation of the new tone of the Lost Omen line. But seemingly you can't discuss such issues without devolving to flaming and 'not responding in good faith' arguments. Well that's it from me anyway..

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Well that isn't what I said?... Dunno what you really are talking about to be honest?

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To paraphrase Bob Dylan. Everyone has God on their side even Cheliax (or maybe devils). I look forward to 'nuanced' depictions of evil, think it is greatly needed. My pathfinder society will definately think they are right in looting everything which isn't nailed down...

Yeah Paradozen I figured that as well hence my initial thread name and the tone of the Lost Omens line. Well it will be interesting to see what people will do with this setting and what conflicts they will portray. Could be interesting to see how Cheliax could be portrayed in such a new tone and in the Lost Omen line

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Well thats not what I said (not sure why you quote me for that?).. I think any attempt to try to treat or compare Mwangi to Africa is going to be problematic on so many levels and trying to fix that in a rpg setting is bound to fail ( it seems that is the comparison you are making).. Looking forward to seeing how Mwangi has changed in this iteration though. Still seems like a fun region to establish a good conflict in :)

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I wholeheartedly agree Michael. But I still think racism (if you want it in your game) can be an experience the 'in-game' character can experience. The experience of racial bias in a diverse world as Golarion is perhaps even more likely and offers a lot of options (for the GM) to introduce that in the setting, where you are not just judged by the color of your skin, but by feathers, teeth and claw (and height!)... If the GM and the player table see fit to introduce such themes ofcourse.. The Mwangi-characters in the game I am GM'ing will have a hard time in Cheliax and similar nations and will experience racism and so will some ancestries....

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Ty for the response. Just to reiterate it was an observation not a critque regarding the tonal shift in the Golarion setting. We as GM's can always set the tone, mold the world how we see fit. Was just curious about the new direction. Thank you for clarifying that Michal Sayre. But to say the other setting was racist as keftiu blatantly suggests.. well.. I wouldn't bring out such big conceptual guns concerning a roleplaying material but that is just me... I reserve the racist concept to serious discussions not rpg forums and the like. I am sure the authors of the previous material had no such agenda in their minds when they wrote their stuff.

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No intention at all to start a racist thread or anything the like. I just look at my Lost Omen line products (Mwangi haven't arrived in Denmark yet) and see a difference to the campaign setting of Golarion of 1ED. Just the art seen from the Mwangi book is very different than previous depictions....

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I am curious about the new Mwangi book, since the old Heart of Darkness and other Mwangi supplements were quite darker in their portray of the continent. (Sorry for mistyping above..)


This is not a critque, but perhaps an observation I am curious if you also share. Looking back at my old Pahtfinder Campaign Settings and previous Pathfinder setting materiale it seems as if The Lost Omens line is taking a vastly more light and diverse approach to the Golarion world? Am I off track here and perhaps not seeing the more gritty aspects of Golarion / Tje Lost Omens line.

I wasn't thinking of American wrestling , but more Aikido, judo or traditional wrestling etc where you would never let an opponent go (lose grab) and lose momentum etc. But perhaps I am interpreting the action economy wrong in this case. Still like the idea of a dragon grabbing my Goblin Wizard and flying away with him...


This also came up in my group. Wouldn't a reasonable action be a single action where you can move the grabbed 5' pr. size difference (a medium creature moving the other medium creature 5')and perhaps cumulative so a large creature can move a medium grabbed creature 10' etc. Otherwise I fail to see how you can wrestle adequately in Pathfinder 2E :)