VMC and level stacking.


Rules Questions


Consider a Cavalier 5/Battle Herald 5 that is a Variant Multi-Classed (VMC) bard.

What is that character's effective level for inspire courage? RAW, I'd say it's 11 (VMC bard is 10-4 or level 6, Battle Herald is 5, so 11). But that seems a lot for a 10th level character. By level 13 it would be 18.

I just can't figure out what was intended with double counting levels like this.


Depends on which inspire courage you're using.

The first thing to remember is that you have no levels in bard. Variant multiclassing does not grant levels in the chosen class--it simply grants abilities normally associated with that class.

Given that, you now have two completely separate abilities called "inspire courage":

1. Variant Multiclassing (bard): You can inspire courage at an effective bard level of 6 (i.e., 10 minus 4) up to (10 plus Charisma modifier) rounds per day.

2. Battle Herald: You can inspire courage at an effective bard level of 5 (for your five levels of battle herald) up to (4 plus 5 plus Charisma modifier) rounds per day.


Hobit of Bree wrote:

Consider a Cavalier 5/Battle Herald 5 that is a Variant Multi-Classed (VMC) bard.

What is that character's effective level for inspire courage? RAW, I'd say it's 11 (VMC bard is 10-4 or level 6, Battle Herald is 5, so 11). But that seems a lot for a 10th level character. By level 13 it would be 18.

I just can't figure out what was intended with double counting levels like this.

Do you gain class features or levels in bard?

I'm pretty sure you just get class features, not levels, so no bard levels to stack with Battle herald


VMC doesn't count as class levels in that class, to my knowledge... there is no stacking.


VoodistMonk wrote:
VMC doesn't count as class levels in that class, to my knowledge... there is no stacking.

Interesting. Not at all how I'd read this, but apparently how a lot of you are.

"Bardic Performance: At 7th level, he gains the ability to inspire courage and inspire competence as a bard of his character level – 4"

He is inspiring courage as a bard of character level -4 (or 6 in this case). Why would they not stack?


Hobit of Bree wrote:
VoodistMonk wrote:
VMC doesn't count as class levels in that class, to my knowledge... there is no stacking.

Interesting. Not at all how I'd read this, but apparently how a lot of you are.

"Bardic Performance: At 7th level, he gains the ability to inspire courage and inspire competence as a bard of his character level – 4"

He is inspiring courage as a bard of character level -4 (or 6 in this case). Why would they not stack?

Bard VMC Inspires Courague as a Bard, but does not have Bard Leves.

From rules:

This optional system allows a character to trade out half her feats in order to gain the benefits of a secondary class.
A character who selects this option doesn’t gain feats at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels, but instead gains class features from her secondary class as described on Table: Multiclass Character Advancement

I belive this is what doesn't give you levels, but Class Features


Despite the name, VMC is not multiclassing. Your "secondary class features" don't treat you as a character with levels in that class, they change the class features to key off your character level instead.


Also, by default having the same class feature from two different classes doesnt stack. Sometimes there is specific language to say “stacks with levels of x” that would be a bit more ambiguous, but VMC doesnt have that language anywhere.


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VMC Bard wrote:
Bardic Performance: At 7th level, he gains the ability to inspire courage and inspire competence as a bard of his character level – 4 for a number of rounds per day equal to his Charisma modifier + his character level.
Battle Herald wrote:
All battle heralds may use inspiring command to inspire courage (as the bardic performance ability); bard and battle herald levels stack to determine the bonuses provided by inspire courage.

VMC is just heavy ask your GM territory. It's an untested house rule from a book of optional house rules. As such, I don't feel a "RAW" approach is appropriate here.

Ordinarily, I would say the regular "intent" would be for them to "stack". While the VMC doesn't have a bard level, it does have an effective bard level for that specific ability. However, I don't like the double dipping where you are advancing your inspire courage twice from gaining the same level. That is what I would call an unintended consequence of the house rule.

What I'd probably rule in this situation, if I were the GM, is that your effective level is the VMC's character level-4 for either source, but you can use either your performance rounds or your inspiring command rounds to "fuel" that level of inspire courage.


Melkiador wrote:
It's an untested house rule from a book of optional house rules.

I wouldn't call VMC a house rule - it's an official albeit optional rule.

Melkiador wrote:
Ordinarily, I would say the regular "intent" would be for them to "stack".

I disagree - I don't think double dipping is intended. Every level in such a class or prestige class would count those levels double. And there's a lot of those out there - almost all class features granting improved unarmed damage, a ki pool, or a familiar stack, among others.


"Intended" gets thrown around too easily. The writers aren't omniscient. Rules get written without always knowing how they may interact with other rules. In this case, the double dipping is a reasonable interpretation of what's written. I really don't like this trend of trying to bend and manipulate the wording to keep unintended interactions from occurring. We should just accept that the rules are imperfect and figure out how best to use what we have, without trying to pretend that the "right" answer was there all along.


Hybrid classes call out if their levels stack with levels in one of the parent classes.

Sneak Attack calls out when it stacks with other sources of Sneak Attack.

Everyone always says that Pathfinder is an INCLUSIVE system, and if it's not included in the text, then it doesn't apply...

General rule of thumb is that nothing other than untyped bonuses and dodge bonuses stack unless specifically called out.

VMC does NOT call out that the VMC levels stack with similar class levels, therefore, VMC levels do NOT stack with similar class levels.

Chances are that if it feels dirty, it is dirty.


Making the player keep track of two of the same ability with varying levels of useage and bonuses is usually counterproductive to a good time. I'd combine it all and be done with it.


You have a slight problem with your build. A VMC bard does not gain inspire courage until 7th level. So you need to be a 7th level cavalier before even qualifying for battle Herald. The VMC rules also suggest using either the VMC or normal multiclassing not both. While they do say that the systems can be used together this is not recommended. Since prestige classes are always traditional multiclassing your combination is not and as such does not fall under intent.

There is also a lot of precedent for limiting class abilities to no more than your character level. I would simply state that your inspire courage functions at your character level.


Thanks all.

And good point about the level 7 requirement. That was the plan for the actual character. Thinking Occultist 7/Cavalier 1/Battle Herald 1. and then Occultist the rest of the way (it's a weak powergaming option, but may end up being the right choice from a RP viewpoint).

Thanks again!

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