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Alright, so this thread is about what the best combinations of Extra Manifestation and Solar Manifestation are and the weaknesses about them.
First Combination: Solar Weapon + Solar Flare
Alright so this is easy to take a look upon. This combination is good damage-wise and cost efficiency. You have a free melee weapon and a free ranged weapon. The Solar Weapon has a reach of your race's natural reach and the Flare has a 60 ft range. Let's say that you want to be a good damage dealer. Your character reached to a Level 20 Korasha Lashuta Solarian with +2 STR, +2 CHA, & -2 WIS, and have any of the +1 DEX themes. Your rolls were 18, 18, 16, 10, 11, & 12. You have a Mk 1, 2, and 3 Upgrade. Your STR goes from 20->21(5th)->22(10th)->23(15th)->24(20th)+Mk 1 Upgrade(+2)--> 26(+8 Mod); DEX=17->19(5th)->20(10th)->21(15th)->22(20th)+Mk 2 Upgrade(+4)--> 26(+8 Mod); CHA=20->21(5th)->22(10th)->23(15th)->24(20th)+Mk 3 Upgrade(+6)--> 30(+10 Mod). Alright so now done with the stats part, now to damage. The Solar Weapon deals 12d6+8+20+6d6+10(Soulfire Crystal=CHA Mod + 6d6)= Min:56 Max:146; Crit Min:116 Crit Max:218. That is a lot of damage for a non Full Attack. The Flare deals 12d4+20+6d6(Crystal)= Min:38 Max:104; Crit Min:86 Crit Max:152. The great part about this is you only have to worry about buying armor and other things but not weapons. This means that you can get heavy armor if you want to through the feat. It is great overall with the Quick Draw feat and in a fully attuned state.
Second Combination: Solar Armor + Solar Shield
With the solar armor and a dex score of 26/28, you can get an AC of 10+22+8+2(Specialist Hardlight Series AC bonus + DEX Modifier + Armor)=42. While with the shield up instead=10+22+8+1/6(AC Armor bonus + DEX Modifier + Shield(Unaligned/aligned))=41/46. When fully attuned=10+22+8+2+1/6(Armor + DEX Mod + SA + SS)=43/48. This combination if you want to focus on using Longarms/Heavy Weapons at range while being a total defense role. The AC exceeds or equals heavy armor and unupgraded powered armor. A Level 20 Celebrity Rigging of a Level 20 Warblood Vesk Guard Soldier puts its AC penalty at 0 and AC at: EAC=10+32+7+1(Standard 10 + Armor + DEX Mod + Racial trait)=50; KAC=10+36+7+2(Standard + Armor + DEX Mod + Racial + Armored Advantage)=55. The Guard has a basic AC of that much without feats, upgrades, or gear boosts. The only thing comes close to that is a Hover Drone with an EAC & KAC of 50. Those are the only two things that can defeat the Defensive Solarian in terms of AC.
More on other combos later
The only thing comes close to that is a Hover Drone with an EAC & KAC of 50.
That isn't a thing.
A hover drone gains a total of +6 to its two modifiers which one is DEX. The drone has 16 DEX which increases to 22 with a +6 modifier. The hover drone also has 2 Enhanced Armor mods giving it +4 to its AC. The drone also gains AC bonus of +18 to base AC. The formula is EAC/KAC=10+DEX Mod+AC Bonus+Mods+Ultra-clocking. The drone then has 11+6+18+4+1=40. Sure I miscalculated about 50 AC, but the Drone has a good AC.
One thing to stay aware of (it has been noted in other threads about this too): You typically only have one manifestation active at a time.
You only get both active when fully attuned. So that only happens at the earliest a few rounds into combat (Well, aside from 20th level Stellar Paragon). And if you use a zenith revelation, it resets and you lose one of the manifestations.
So if you are counting on both manifestations being active, then you are also probably going to want to choose revelations for permanent bonuses and not rely on zenith revelations. Which probably means being unbalanced in revelation selections so as to have more buffs to have active.
Not a deal-breaker, and certainly not the only way to build. But it is something to keep in mind.
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With that in mind, switch hitting between ranged and melee with the Solar Flare / Solar Weapon combo is one of the strongest IMHO.
And I am not overly thrilled with Solar Armor / Solar Shield. I don't want to spend 3 or 4 rounds (likely most of the battle) without my main defenses. And if they aren't my main defenses, then why do I have both?
One thing to stay aware of (it has been noted in other threads about this too): You typically only have one manifestation active at a time.
You only get both active when fully attuned. So that only happens at the earliest a few rounds into combat (Well, aside from 20th level Stellar Paragon). And if you use a zenith revelation, it resets and you lose one of the manifestations.
So if you are counting on both manifestations being active, then you are also probably going to want to choose revelations for permanent bonuses and not rely on zenith revelations. Which probably means being unbalanced in revelation selections so as to have more buffs to have active.
Not a deal-breaker, and certainly not the only way to build. But it is something to keep in mind.
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With that in mind, switch hitting between ranged and melee with the Solar Flare / Solar Weapon combo is one of the strongest IMHO.
And I am not overly thrilled with Solar Armor / Solar Shield. I don't want to spend 3 or 4 rounds (likely most of the battle) without my main defenses. And if they aren't my main defenses, then why do I have both?
I forget where I saw it pointed out, but kind of a neat combo to make this switch-hitting strategy work well is the Double Draw feat. You need 4 or more arms to use it, so some PCs are going to need to get cybernetic arms to qualify, but with it you can spend 1 move action to sheath your Solar Flare and draw your Solar Weapon (or a swift action, if you have the Quick Draw feat).
I thought that you couldn't have 2 manifestations... Thanks for the info :)
Solar Weapon + Solar Flare seem to be the best combination, since you have both a melee and a ranged weapon. When it comes to equipement economy, you're saving a LOT of credits with these.
Solar Weapon + Solar Shield would also work, but shields aren't as good in Starfinder ^^; and the Solar Shield uses your own unarmed strike damage for bashing. You need an extra feat to increase its power (Improved Unarmed Strike).
The only thing I would like to know is about crystals: does one Solarian crystal affect both manifestations, or does each one need its own crystal?
The scaling on the solar shield actually makes it quite good defensively (aside from being far too strong as a weapon for the right characters). Even more so if you bring in a single level of Envoy for Phalanx Fighting.
Here's the rules text of the Extra Manifestation alternate class rules from the Archives of Nethys.
You gain a second solar manifestation. You can have only one manifestation active at a time unless you are fully attuned (graviton or photon), in which case you can use two manifestations at once. You must be at least 9th level to select extra manifestations.
Extra manifestation replaces one selection of zenith revelations.
I'm firmly in the camp that you'd need a different crystal for each manifestation.
My reasoning is that if you have two manifestations, then you have two motes, and the crystal goes directly into the mote.
Not to mention fusions are going to be incompatible, sometimes, between the the weapon, the shield, and the flare.
Good points :)
The scaling on the solar shield actually makes it quite good defensively (aside from being far too strong as a weapon for the right characters).
It is worth noting that you will need an additional feat to make your shield bashes efficient (Improved Unarmed Strike). That's not much of an issue... unless you have built a character with very specific feats in mind, that replacing one of them messes everything ^^;
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Honestly Solar Shield is much better than the Vanguard's Entropy Shield by a long shot. Solar Armor is only for people that use light armor. I found that Solar Flare/Weapon if the best because you don't ever have to get new weapons. It really makes Solarians one of the most cost efficient for weapons, with the others being an Unarmed Striker Soldier and Vanguard. The DPS Solarian can go for heavy or powered armor, which make them tough to kill. Vanguards have the unique choice of focusing on Light Armor and Heavy/Powered Armor thanks to their Disciplines. You can be evasive or tanky. But Solarian out-damage everyone in pure melee, not so much for ranged
Honestly Solar Shield is much better than the Vanguard's Entropy Shield by a long shot. Solar Armor is only for people that use light armor. I found that Solar Flare/Weapon if the best because you don't ever have to get new weapons. It really makes Solarians one of the most cost efficient for weapons, with the others being an Unarmed Striker Soldier and Vanguard. The DPS Solarian can go for heavy or powered armor, which make them tough to kill. Vanguards have the unique choice of focusing on Light Armor and Heavy/Powered Armor thanks to their Disciplines. You can be evasive or tanky. But Solarian out-damage everyone in pure melee, not so much for ranged
A solarian built for solar flare can quite handily keep up with a heavy weapons soldier on damage output.
It's a bit of a vague memory of previous threads, but their damage per shot is actually quite a bit higher than a heavy weapons soldier. It's in line or better than unwieldy heavy weapons while still making full attacks. The only issue is they can't benefit from the various gear and class accuracy boosters soldiers get.
They do have to buy solarian weapon crystals to stand at the top, but if they're a ranged focused character, they can ignore their own armor to an extent.
Heavy armor makes them survive more often
Heavy armor makes them survive more often
In melee... outside of melee, if your character has a half decent team, you can be in level-3 armor and be fine. At the extremes, you can be in level 1 armor at level 7 and be fine.
That's predicated on your team having melee fighters who can tie up enemies, but that's kinda expected no matter what sort of ranged character you build any way, so?
And... a solarian built on solar flare can still spare a feat for heavy armor...
The issue I see is that armor offers the least appealling options compared to the other 3.
- A solar weapon has good damage, hits Kinetic AC and is a one-handed weapon, which means that it can be used two-handed.
- A solar flare has good damage, hits Energy AC and has unlimited ammo.
- A solar shield can be used as a weapon (based on your personal unarmed strike damage) or as protection, with a scaling bonus.
- The armor... has a poultry AC scaling and resistance can be acquired by regular means.
You know what's missing for the armor? The ability to replicate a Powered Armor, including slam damage, Strength modifiers and size. Imagine a Solarian activating his armor to become a Huge mech. NOW we're talking :D
Hey, you CAN wear Light Armor with a Powered Armor, so ;)
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To me it seems like a great combo would be solar flare with the solar shield, but building to use the shield as a melee weapon as well (when needed). Run around in heavy armor/powered armor and shoot people and occasionally bash them in the face.
Yeah, having both Solar Weapon and Solar Flare means you can get proficiency, which is better than Solar Armor
Yeah, having both Solar Weapon and Solar Flare means you can get proficiency, which is better than Solar Armor
A Solarian is... already proficient with basic and advanced melee weapons (solar weapon) and small arms (solar flare), as well as light armors and shields.
I am talking about Heavy Armor proficiency
I am talking about Heavy Armor proficiency
Yes, spending a feat on heavy armor proficiency tends to be better than solar armor.
And now that we have solar flare, a solar armor based ranged build for a solarian is much less attractive, leaving solar armor in the dust.
I still hold out hope on an 'armor crystal' of some sort.
I mean the resistances of both Solar Shield and Solar Armor when fully attuned are pretty nice though.
I mean the resistances of both Solar Shield and Solar Armor when fully attuned are pretty nice though.
Realistically you're only facing one or two damage types per combat though.
So, it's best to as many resistances as possible ASAP, and armor upgrades combined with one or the other are probably the most efficient way to avoid damage.
And never forget the Enhanced Resistance feat for kinetic damage, I don't think there's anything else that offers as much resistance for all non-energy damage.
Solarians aren't nearly as good for tanking hits like Vanguards and Soldiers. An Evasive Vanguard is good, but a Warblood-Vesk Guard/Armor Storm Soldier can literally get the Enhanced Resistance Feat for literally the next 6 levels from level 4 to level 10, making them hard to kill. Add Deflective Reinforcement, Mk 3 Thermal Capacitor, Mk 3 Electrostatic Field, Filtered Rebreather, Sonic Dampener, Mk 5 Fortification Plates, & Mk 4 Magic Resistor to their armor(Vesk Monolith Mk 3) and they become nearly invincible. Their resistances are DR 30/-(35/- when Impenetrable Defense is activated), Fire 35, Cold 35, Electricity 35, Acid 25, Sonic 25, Magic 30, & 100% chance Crit damage turn to Normal damage.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but it sounds like you're talking about taking Enhanced Resistance multiple times, and then stacking resistance from armor mods on top if resistance from the feat. If so, everything you just said is wrong.
You can't take Enhanced Resistance more than once.
Multiple sources of resistance to the same damage type don't stack unless they explicitly state that they can, as an exception to the general rule.
That sucks
You did just lay out an example of why none of those things are allowed to work that way.
Yeah, you can only take Enhanced Resistance once (best use is on kinetic damage since you can get Energy Resistance from other things).
But different kinds of energy resistance (for the same element) don't stack so you just end up taking the highest.
Also, there might be some exceptions but damage reduction doesn't stack with other kinds of damage reduction (unless it specifically says so, but I don't know of example off hand).
There are a few exceptions. A few racial energy resistances state that they stack with 1 other source. Dermal plating doesn't fully stack but adds 1 to existing DR. Resistant skin can add on top of racial resistances that don't normally stack.
They're all exceptions of limited scope.
Solarians aren't nearly as good for tanking hits like Vanguards and Soldiers.=
This is true, but as far as melee damage goes? Solarians are kings.
And that's how their class is balanced with the others.
They outdamage everyone in melee. They can at maximum (with 3x crit full attack + Solar Acceleration buff + Variant Boost 6d6 + [if Int is up to 15]Supercharge Weapon + True T-Quark Crystal[+6d6] as a maximum of nearly 850 damage with a single attack with proper buffs. It is stupid crazy. Their Solar Flare is really decent too, besting a Pistolero +4 Dex Soldier and Operative Trick Attack.
The Supercharge Weapon is from the Technomantic Dabbler feat.
Solarians are just astonishing and amazing for their damage potential. I kind of find that the best Zenith Revelations are Wormholes and Solar Acceleration. They aren't attack revelations, but great buffs and useful for your team.
Making full attacks as a standard action, gaining haste, and can travel through a portal on the other side to get up close to a boss or something is just awesome
How are you getting Variant Boost on a solar weapon?
How are you getting Variant Boost on a solar weapon?
There's a crystal that grants it.
If you remove solar acceleration and supercharge weapon it's still a solid amount of damage that doesn't really require ramp up.
I'm still not familiar with the rules of Variant Boosting, I'm having trouble locating it. Ithought (based on what I did find) you could just choose to enhance a few attacks each day, I didn't see a mention of needing to do it as an action that would prevent full attacks, but from your context I'm assuming that's the case.
VARIANT BOOST
A weapon with the variant boost special property acts as a weapon with the boost special property (Core Rulebook 181), except boosting the weapon does not expend additional charges and the weapon can be boosted only the listed number of times per day.
Working like boost means requiring an action like boost.
Solaris can absolutely deal tremendous melee damage, but measuring attack routines that require an envoy to use Hurry on them makes as little sense as countil up maximum damage on crits (instead of average damage multiplied by expected accuracy) or even mentioning trick attacking operatives in a discussion of the high end of damage output at the level cap.
The average damage is still stronger than everything though. Boosting a weapon with the Boost property requires a move action. Supercharge Weapon is used to power up the weapon before your next turn to attack. The Solarian is going to mostly one-shot kill enemies with these two buffs. It comes to crazy amounts of damage even for minimum. Hammerjack, I don't really know the accuracy equations but working out damage is best for me. I know you do that stuff, but to me it really doesn't matter. I just like finding the absolute most damage for potential. Solar Acceleration makes you able to Full Attack as a Standard Action. The Variant Boost, Solar Acceleration, & Supercharge Weapon all apply; so it still works. By the way, when someone crits, I go off by the idea that when a person crits, they get max normal plain weapon dice like 12d6 -> 72. It is better and fairer for players.