Ok, so I'm looking for ideas for our specific situation, but it might also be a good place to list thoughts for this in general.
Got a couple of people who are likely to join our group. One has very nearly zero experience in RPG's at all. The other has played some RPG's but not PF and not ones that are nearly as complex as PF.
Both are more than a bit daunted by the amount of material we use and have absorbed as 'group knowledge' over the years. When I really think about it, I can't blame them. We routinely use stuff from over 20 books without even needing to look anything up very often. But the group isn't interested in switching to a new simpler system even though we would like to have some new blood in the group.
So I've been talking about it with our prospective newbies. Making the character build plans is one of the most complex things in PF1. Especially with the nearly limitless possibilities from so many books. Even some very experienced players don't like the complexity of character building in PF1. So I'm going to build the characters for them. Absolutely with their input. But I'm going to make builds that have limited in-play mechanical choices to keep track of at first and gradually get new things that can be done as they have at least partially absorbed their earlier capabilities. So it doesn't really matter if the build is complex, just so the initial capabilities are fairly simple and new things are introduced gradually.
I want to make sure they also have some decent out-of-combat utility. I don't want them to ever feel sidelined. But good totals in some of the most common skills and maybe a few other generally utility abilities will help with that. So things like perception, sense motive, linguistics, any knowledge, and diplomacy would be very appropriate.
As the GM for the group, I can make sure they don't have any capabilities that will be totally useless. Profession sailor or favored enemy lycanthropes might never come up in some campaigns.
I should also mention, most especially with new players, I let them switch things out pretty often if they find something wasn't as fun as they thought it would be. So if the player hates missing because of power attack they could change it to weapon focus without penalty. If the learn they never seem to be able to use fireball because of hitting allies or innocents they could switch it slow and just affect who they want to.
Player A
Has already experienced a desire for a big brute combatant and likes the pictures of the half-orcs. I of course immediately thought of fighter or barbarian. but fighter tends to not change much over time and doesn't usually have many skill ranks. A lot of people find keeping track of the changes and powers associate with rage to be confusing. So I didn't think that was the best for a start. I'm currently leaning toward 1/2 orc ranger. If I took the two-handed weapon fighting style, that is pretty simple. Later it adds in some spells. But not a huge list or large numbers of them. If interested, it also eventually adds an animal companion or I could pick an archetype that gives that away.
Ranger is also very easy to make as a switch hitter that can function reasonably well with ranged or melee combat. With precise shot and power attack, can pretty reliably function at either and later decide where to specialize. If at all. If has some intelligence for skill ranks and wisdom to cast spells. Will be a pretty well rounded, useful character, that will introduce new rule capabilities later in career.
Thoughts or other suggestions?
Player B
I think wants a caster. Probably wants to base the PC on Polgara the Sorceress from the Belgariad(sp?) series by Eddings. At least I think that was the author. For a newbie caster, I think a spontaneous caster is much more appropriate. Only have to learn how very limited number of spells operate and are used. The group can help select some generally fun/useful spells that aren't horrifically complex. (I would never give summoning spells to a newbie.) New spells are added over the levels, but still a limited number of them. and can always purchase pages of spell knowledge if feels like ready for more spells. As I remember Polgara (been a large number of years), I think she fits better as an oracle rather than a sorcerer. I don't think she should be a life oracle though. Not only did the character do stuff other than heal, I think this player would quickly get bored as a heal-bot. Likes the idea of helping care for others, but not a one dimensional walking band-aid. So the spontaneous cure wounds spells and maybe a couple others like restoration and neutralize poison will give that flavor. Still leaving plenty of room for other fun useful spells.
So I'm thinking a human or half-elf oracle. Not sure about mysteries or revelations though.
Thoughts or other suggestions?
Note: We are certainly not set on any of this. These are just my thoughts as I try throw some initial concepts together this weekend. If you have potentially better ideas, send em out.
What other simple-ish builds have you tried for newbies?
Only that if you are suggesting half orc ranger, also suggest the racial feat Keen Scent. Not only is it an extremely powerful feat (especially for a ranger), it will give him an ability no other party member without that feat can match or duplicate, even if they are also playing martial types.
Two-handed is probably the weakest ranger combat style. Id go with unchained barbarian. It has plenty of options without as much troublesome math.
I feel like Polgara is closer to a druid or a shaman or even a witch, but none of those are spontaneous casters.
What level are they starting at, because that can make a difference?
Two-handed is probably the weakest ranger combat style. Id go with unchained barbarian. It has plenty of options without as much troublesome math. ...
I was thinking about that. If I went barbarian it would definitely be the unchained version. I guess my thinking was that most barbarians don't change and introduce new things very much over their career. The numbers get bigger, but it is still pretty much just rage and smack.
For ranger I was considering the ranged combat style for the free precise shot and improved precise shot. Using the regular level feats for the two-handed weapon stuff. certainly not settled on anything.A ranger well eventually get spells and/or an animal companion. So they get some new capabilities and learn some new things. I guess I could eventually start adding the rage powers for things like combat maneuvers. But those are pretty complex even for a lot of experienced players.
I will ask the player if they would rather just keep getting better at hitting things or if they would eventually like to learn spells and stuff.
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I feel like Polgara is closer to a druid or a shaman or even a witch, but none of those are spontaneous casters. ...
I hadn't considered witch. I can see that working. I think Polgara is too civilized for druid or shaman, but that may just be me.
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What level are they starting at, because that can make a difference?
Our group's campaigns usually start at 2nd or 3rd level and tries to work through to 4th or 5th fairly quickly. If we get both new players to join it will probably be 2nd level and take more time than our usual getting through the first few levels.
Guess I should also mention. The other experienced members in the group already agreed to let the new players finalize on their characters first. That way they don't have to try and fit into any holes in the groups capabilities.
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I disagree with you about newbies and spontaneous casters. A Cleric has the freedom to choose from a huge list of spells every day ...
Yes exactly. "... a huge list of spells..." And nearly every newbie I've witnessed trying to play a prepared caster enters an almost immediate decision paralysis. They haven't got a clue what to pick and know how almost nothing works. So they pick what others tell them to pick, use them when someone else tells them too, and learn little about any of them.
If, on the other hand, we talk about a small number of likely spells and explain them outside of the game session, we can help them pick a few versatile spells with a very small reading and understanding list.
If I was going with a prepared caster, I'd probably suggest wizard or witch. At least then they really only need to learn what is in their spell book rather than the whole list of possibilities.
If players have limited options, it might help them to give them some cards they could play each round. A card named "Full attack", "Vital Strike" etc., with the bare minimum of information they need. Just divide a piece of paper into pieces, print it and cut them. Heck, with a easy-to-read handwriting you don't even have to print. Ideally they design and print the cards themselves, though.
Personally, I'd go so far and use this in the case I ever get to play a brawler - martial flexibility should be way more handy if you have your options (literally) at hand...
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I think Ranger is a good choice for Player A. You might check out the Slayer hybrid class as well, since it adds some versatility to the character (and you don't have to worry about spells/animal companion later on). With the talents the Slayer gets, you can make a very good switch-hitter much the same as you could a ranger, and not have to worry about picking the right favored enemy. Skills are plentiful as well. I'd also suggest the Viking (fighter) archetype if you want some flavor of the fighter with that of a barbarian.
For Player B, I would suggest the Oracle. Spirit Guide might be useful for adding a bit of versatility to the character on a day to day basis (or just leave the second spirit alone each day). This way, you can pick up the healing role if you want, and still be good at something else. Shaman would be a secondary option, if you want prepared versus spontaneous. There are two archetypes (Ley-Line Guardian and Seducer) for the witch that makes it a spontaneous caster, though the later is ... kind of 'mature audiences only'.
Another option to consider for player A might be a Bloodrager... the bloodline progression is far simpler to learn and manage than the myriad of rage powers from barbarian, and at later levels they get some limited spontaneous spell casting that can add some complexity but can also be completely ignored if they don’t feel comfortable with learning spells since their spells per day are very limited.... and if they do feel like delving into the spell aspect of it, the Bloodrager spell list is one of the smallest.
For player B... oracle or sorcerer would definitely be the best starting points... the limited spells known for spontaneous spell casters is far more new player friendly than the massive lists available to prepared spell casters... and having the freedom to cast any spell known as many times as they have spell slots is much less complicated and frustrating than attempting to determine how many of what spell you want for the day. If they want to go the prepared route though, then I would suggest starting them off with the Arcanist to get a taste of prepared spellcasting while keeping the freedom of spontaneous spellcasting.
The ley-line guardian witch might be a good choice for Polgara.