The commands "approach" and "flee" say that the target provokes attacks of opportunity as normal, so it's clearly possible for them to undertake overtly harmful actions under the effects of this spell.
It makes sense; Charm Person is the same level and is more potent/useful in many ways. Command has to have an edge.
For charm person i agree that it's really usefull 99% of the time but as it's write in the description "An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing" so i dont think he can use it in this situation or maybe you can tought of something that is worth falling 40feet down and then getting attack by a band of angry people...
I'm not sure I follow.
My point is that (1) Command states pretty clearly that you can make them undertake an action that is harmful and (2) this seems reasonable, as the spell is sort of similar to Charm Person, except that it is less useful overall and much more useful in specific situations.
I'm asking this question cause when i ask to some of my friend who play pathfinder for a while they say that no mind affecting spell can make someone hurt himself. They say that the mind affecting spell cannot make a creature act against his belief, exemple of casting Compassionate Ally on a Demon, he say that the demon will resist it...
You should have them to the spells Terrible Remorse and Shamefully Overdressed. Both of these are mind affecting spells who's results go against most creatures natures, so that's absolutely a false statement. Unless these spells only work on creatures that are suicidal or exhibitionists respectively.
They are probably fixated on the way the spells charm person and dominate person work as they contain language that is consistent with what they are saying. While common, these spells have no bearing on the way other spells work. Enchantment spells can absolutely make a character do things that are against their nature. That's why the spell atonement has a special clause that directly addresses it.
If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you.
As for your question about command, I don't see anything that indicates that they wouldn't jump off the balcony and move closer. That being said, unless they are very low level it's surprising there isn't some sort of barrier present that would stop the spell and/or the target creature from doing this. After all, I know I would want to be on the other side of a wall of force just so I don't get shot with an arrow or heck have someone chuck their longsword at me. Even as an improvised weapon a creature could throw a weapon 50 feet. The NPC was very much in the danger zone even by mundane standards.
Hi, in my campain we are fighting in an arena then the big boss talk to us while being on a balcony. It's a roman arena if you want to imagine the situation.
Then one player got an idea, he want to use the spell command and use the "Approach" option, which say "quickly and DIRECTLY" for him directly is jump down the balcony. And in the spell description it doesnt say the "self-destructive orders are not carried out" like dominate person.
So my question is can you force people to hurt themself like this with the command spell?
The fall would be 40 feet
I would say you could command the to approach, but they aren't obligated to him hurt themselves on the way. So if they have a rope or means of getting down without hurting themselves that is direct they would do so.
Honestly if I were the GM I would have him approach the railing, jump over the side, and have his Snapleaf go off on the way down.
Compulsion: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way its mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject's actions or the effects on the subject, others allow you to determine the subject's actions when you cast the spell, and still others give you ongoing control over the subject.
A compulsion can cause you to perform a harmful act, or act against your nature. The real question is does command force someone to act in an obviously suicidal manner?
You give the subject a single command, which it obeys to the best of its ability at its earliest opportunity. You may select from the following options.
Command also specifies that you perform the action to the best of your ability. If the subject has a way to safely jump off the balcony the spell would compel them to do so. The target will utilize any form of movement it is capable of so if it has the ability to teleport it would use that. As long as he has a reasonable chance to survive the jump he will. If he cannot survive the jump he will take the next most direct route that he can. That is what to the best of its ability means.
The fact that the players will attack him will not factor in his decision. The actions of other are outside his control so not subject to the best of its ability clause.
This spell used to be more powerful - much more powerful (I think in 3.x DnD).
It used to allow you to make ANY command, provided it was only a single word. "Suicide" or "Autodefenestrate" became people's favourite terms, and would allow this kind of thing.
Paizo put the breaks on by restricting you to certain words, but since this spell can - and often does - force an enemy towalk through a Wall of Fire, or provoke an AoO from the angry Barbarian standing between the subject and the caster, forcing something as paltry as 4d6 falling damage seems downright tame.
Command can 100% force enemies into harmful situations, the question is: would it work in this situation?
I say that the GM wouln't be out of line to have the enemy begin climbing down, or use any other method of travel that doesn't involve hurting themsef. If none are available then congratulations to a player who's creative enough to find an offensive use for a 1st level spell (and lucky enough that the enemy fails their save).
Mr.Charisma, I may be wrong on this but in PF2 all spells end up with the same save DC. So being a 1st level spell doesn't mean it has less of a chance or working. It just means that they're not as flashy (typically) as higher level spells.
Edit:
Spell DC = 10 + your spellcasting ability modifier + proficiency bonus + other bonuses + penalties
So DC is no longer spell dependent. Spells remain effective for you entire career, as far as DC is concerned. It's just that higher level spells have more dramatic effects.
Are we talking PF2? We're in the First Edition forums, did I miss something?
...As long as he has a reasonable chance to survive the jump he will. If he cannot survive the jump he will take the next most direct route that he can. That is what to the best of its ability means
I would disagree. A literal reading of "to the best of your ability" would seem to mean that they try to obey your command to the extent they physically can, not that they try to obey your command in a way that is the least harmful to themselves.
If I fall and break my leg then I won’t be able to keep approaching. So, approaching to the best of my ability would be doing so in a way that wouldn’t prevent me to keep doing so.
If you think about it committing suicide will actually prevent the target from following the command. If the command is approach and the shortest route is certain death than taking that route actually prevents the target from approaching the caster. Dead characters can take no actions including moving closer to the caster.
Jumping off the cliff would cause the spell to fail due to the targets inability to carry out your command.
If I fall and break my leg then I won’t be able to keep approaching. So, approaching to the best of my ability would be doing so in a way that wouldn’t prevent me to keep doing so.
What, you can't crawl?
Also, I'll approach to the best of my ability until my leg breaks, at which point I'll approach to the best of my new ability.If you think about it committing suicide will actually prevent the target from following the command...
How so? "Approach" doesn't mean "approach until you are right next to me." If I'm commanded to approach and the shortest route is through a gauntlet of spinning blades, crushing blocks and fire and I'm diced, smashed and incinerated after my first step, I still followed the command. I "approached" to the best of my ability.
It's a lvl1 spell. It could make you drop your weapon, fall prone or provoke attacks of opportunity. Any one of those things could end a combatant. I see no reason to add further restrictions.
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I've been thinking about this and I think I'm going to come down on the side of it not working. Yes the target has to move "toward you as quickly and directly as possible for 1 round." so I've been wondering would that include throwing itself over a balcony. In the end I've decided no they would use stairs, move around the arena. That is they'll approach you as quickly and directly as possible in accordance with their normal behaviour.
For example let us say we have you on rooftop A, the other person on rooftop B and a bridge between the two to the right of both people. If you command the other person to "approach" they are going to use the bridge instead of walking off the edge of the roof. Yes its not as direct but it doesn't say "directly" it say's as "directly as possible." Its the last two words that are important since they qualify the command. You don't take a direct path from A to B you take as direct a path as possible which in the original scenario would involve potentially running down stairs away from the caster as that to them is approaching as directly as possible. Now if we were talking on the edge of a cliff and there was no other route it would be a difficult and harder to judge situation but here I think they would not walk off the edge of the balcony as there are other way's to get from where they are to where you are.
To illistrate the dfiference between the two statements 1 is the qualified spell while 2 is a sentence where the subject would just go straight off the balcony.
1) On its turn, the subject moves toward you as quickly and directly as possible for 1 round.
2) On its turn, the subject moves toward you quickly and directly for 1 round.
If you think about it committing suicide will actually prevent the target from following the command...How so? "Approach" doesn't mean "approach until you are right next to me." If I'm commanded to approach and the shortest route is through a gauntlet of spinning blades, crushing blocks and fire and I'm diced, smashed and incinerated after my first step, I still followed the command. I "approached" to the best of my ability.
It's a lvl1 spell. It could make you drop your weapon, fall prone or provoke attacks of opportunity. Any one of those things could end a combatant. I see no reason to add further restrictions.
No actually that is not to the best of your ability. To the best of your ability means you do anything to carry out the order, including avoiding obstacles that would prevent you from doing so.
Forget about the spell and the original scenario for a second and use a real world example. Let’s say your boss tells you that you need to take a report down to a person on the first floor when it completes. The report has been having problems and often does not complete. He tells you to get the information to the person as quickly as you can to the best of your ability. For once the report actually works so you are ready to deliver it. You are on the 14th floor so how do you deliver it. Do you jump out of the window because that is the quickest way down? No you use the elevator, and if that is not working you use the stairs. If for some reason you cannot use the stairs you may decide to take the fire escape. Jumping off the roof does not accomplish your task so is not considered your best effort.
In your scenario the best effort would be to avoid the obviously suicidal route and go around the gauntlet of traps. If that were the only way to approach the target then that would be a different story. But that is not the case in the OP.
No actually that is not to the best of your ability. To the best of your ability means you do anything to carry out the order, including avoiding obstacles that would prevent you from doing so.
I don't think what you're saying actually runs counter to my claim. Commanding someone to approach you does not imply distance, only direction. if my best effort only covers 10% of the distance between us, I still approached you.
Let’s say your boss tells you that you need to take a report down to a person on the first floor when it completes...
that is not a very good example. I don't know about you, but I have never in my life encountered a supervisor or manager who wielded such a thority that those under them were compelled to complete their tasks to the best of their ability, no matter what.
Furthermore, your example goes well beyond what the spell can actually achieve. The boss isn't telling me to move towards the person on the first floor as quickly as possible, their asking me to close ALL the distance and complete another task once I've done that.From the description of the spell Command:
"Approach: On its turn, the subject moves toward you as quickly and directly as possible for 1 round. The creature may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal." -- please show me where the spell requires that I cover a certain amount of distance by the end of the round. Please show me how "as quickly and directly as possible" can equate to anything other than a straight line, when a straight line is clearly available.
My example does go well beyond what the spell can do. This is why I specifically stated to ignore the spell, and concentrate on the meaning of “to the best of your ability”
To the best of your ability simply means as well as you can.
You have obviously never worked a job with any kind of mission critical task. Being told to do the task to the best of your ability is quite common in the real world. My example was actually based on my own job. Instead of having to hand deliver the report I email it out. If something is preventing me form finishing the report I am expected to do what I can to get the job done. So if the server that automatically generates the report is not functioning right I have to generate the report manually. If for some reason I am not able to finish the report on time I send out what I can. If for some reason I need to leave before the report goes out or will not be able to go in, I need to inform someone else so the job can be done. Failure to get this done, or not informing the people expecting the report of the reason for not completing it can result in me being fired.
...they'll approach you as quickly and directly as possible in accordance with their normal behaviour...
...it doesn't say "directly" it say's as "directly as possible."
In accordance with their normal behaviour? Again: compulsion. Your normal behaviour does not enter into it.
As for the different between "directly" and "directly as possible," I can't see the difference you're trying to distinguish.
You command to approach. Is it POSSIBLE for them to approach you in a straight line, a.k.a, the absolute most direct way? Yes, but they'd fall off a balcony. Well, then I guess they do that. Because that's as DIRECTLY as POSSIBLE.
My example does go well beyond what the spell can do. This is why I specifically stated to ignore the spell, and concentrate on the meaning of “to the best of your ability”...You have obviously never worked a job with any kind of mission critical task..
Please do not presume to know what I have or have not done.
I am not talking about the meaning of the phrase in the workplace. I am talking about the most literal meaning those words can possibly have. If your boss demanded that you immediately throw yourself to the floor, would you feel COMPELLED to comply, no matter what? Of course not....if you jump down and break your legs so you can't come to the caster, you aren't going to manage to fulfill the 'as quickly as possible' bit.
Sigh. Again, "approach" doesn't mean "keep moving until you're right next to them." It means you move close to me. Full stop. That's all it means. If you get right to me, congrats. You did it. If you attempt to approach me and, during or due to your attempt, become unable to continue said attempt, that's fine too. You approached. Maybe not as far as you could have, but that's not part of the command.
Approach as quickly and directly as possible to the best of your ability. Fall off the balcony and get injured. Continue to approach as quickly and directly as possible to the best of your ability, which is suddenly a different ability than it was a second ago.Nothing in the spell's description indicates otherwise. Anything else is a houserule.
Ultimately, you’re not going to convince anyone, one way or the other. It’s a pretty niche situation anyway. Expect table variation.
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...they'll approach you as quickly and directly as possible in accordance with their normal behaviour...
...it doesn't say "directly" it say's as "directly as possible."
In accordance with their normal behaviour? Again: compulsion. Your normal behaviour does not enter into it.
As for the different between "directly" and "directly as possible," I can't see the difference you're trying to distinguish.
You command to approach. Is it POSSIBLE for them to approach you in a straight line, a.k.a, the absolute most direct way? Yes, but they'd fall off a balcony. Well, then I guess they do that. Because that's as DIRECTLY as POSSIBLE.My example does go well beyond what the spell can do. This is why I specifically stated to ignore the spell, and concentrate on the meaning of “to the best of your ability”...You have obviously never worked a job with any kind of mission critical task..Please do not presume to know what I have or have not done.
I am not talking about the meaning of the phrase in the workplace. I am talking about the most literal meaning those words can possibly have. If your boss demanded that you immediately throw yourself to the floor, would you feel COMPELLED to comply, no matter what? Of course not....if you jump down and break your legs so you can't come to the caster, you aren't going to manage to fulfill the 'as quickly as possible' bit.Sigh. Again, "approach" doesn't mean "keep moving until you're right next to them." It means you move close to me. Full stop. That's all it means. If you get right to me, congrats. You did it. If you attempt to approach me and, during or due to your attempt, become unable to continue said attempt, that's fine too. You approached. Maybe not as far as you could have, but that's not part of the command.
Approach as quickly and directly as possible to the best of your ability. Fall off the balcony and get injured. Continue to approach as quickly and directly as...
Its a compulsion not a domination they would not normally throw themselves off a balcony when it would hurt them badly and potentially kill themselevs. However as Malkiador said i doubt anyone is going to convince the other.
Its a compulsion not a domination ...
Actually for what it's worth, DOMINATE PERSON is an "Enchantment (Compulsion)" spell.
I think Melkiador got the correct answer though, since this obviously isn't something people agree on.
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Its a compulsion not a domination ...Actually for what it's worth, DOMINATE PERSON is an "Enchantment (Compulsion)" spell.
I think Melkiador got the correct answer though, since this obviously isn't something people agree on.
Fair point. Still for me as a gm throwing themself off a balcony when there are stairs nearby doesn't enter into the planning at all. Even dominated I'd view their mind as going to go to the familiar ways they normally proceed from A to b first and take them rather than doing something that will injure them because it might be faster to jump off the balcony, cross the arena and climb the opposing wall rather than circle round the outside or take the stairs.
It's not like their going to whip out an abacus and spend a round tallying up total number of meters crossed + time opening doors + factor for time lost to injuries on new route + time taken to climb far wall etc. They're just going to default to the way they think will be quickest based on experience and few people make a habit of throwing themselves off balconies to see how fast it is.
Still I'll let it drop here and post no more on the subject.
OK, I am commanded to approach. I move 1 cm closer. I have now technically fulfilled the command, so I can get on with my normal actions. Sound sensible?
No, because you are compelled to follow the command for one full round. If, for the entire turn, you approach the caster as quickly and directly as possible, to the best of your ability, and that brings you 1cm closer, then yes.
Probable/certain death prevents me from fulfilling the command - shouldn't that be taken into account?
No, because the command isn't something that can be fulfilled in degrees. Once again: TO APPROACH means to come near or nearer.
So. Have you come near or nearer? Then you've approached. Doesn't matter if it's a foot or a mile. That has nothing to do with the literal definition of the word.
Are we talking PF2? We're in the First Edition forums, did I miss something?
Nope, that was my bad. Thought I was in the PF2 forum.
per the spell Command-- "You give the subject a single command, which it obeys to the best of its ability at its earliest opportunity. You may select from the following options.
Approach: On its turn, the subject moves toward you as quickly and directly as possible for 1 round. The creature may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal."
per the definition of approach: "to come near or nearer to (someone or something) in distance or time."
per the definition of quickly: "1. at a fast speed; rapidly.
2. with little or no delay; promptly."
per the definition of directly: "1. without changing direction or stopping.
2. with nothing or no one in between."
So...
On its turn, the subject moves toward you at as fast a speed) and with as little changing direction or stopping as possible for 1 round.
If there's a 100ft deep pit between you, stepping into it won't be approaching; it would be the same as a wall or another creature--an obstacle that the target will move around with as fast and with as little changing of direction as possible.
But if the caster is at the bottom of a 100ft pit, climbing a spiral staircase is not the fastest or straightest path.
The creature may do nothing but move during its turn
Move has a specific meaning in Pathfinder. Jumping or falling off a cliff is not a “move”.
Climbing is though... so the character would at least attempt to climb down.
Are we talking PF2? We're in the First Edition forums, did I miss something?Nope, that was my bad. Thought I was in the PF2 forum.
All good. And hey I learned something about PF2. My group hasn't played it yet, but I think we'll give it a try sometime this year. Every little bit helps =)
The creature may do nothing but move during its turnMove has a specific meaning in Pathfinder. Jumping or falling off a cliff is not a “move”.
Climbing is though... so the character would at least attempt to climb down.
Jumping off a cliff CAN be a move, but isn't necessarily.
Here's how I'd run it as a GM:
When the player comes up with this idea I'd let it work. The player was creative, and they should be rewarded for thinking a little outside the box. The enemy jumps into the arena, takes a little damage and is now within striking distance of the party. Guards are called and all hell breaks lose as shenanigans ensue.
If the player (or any of the players) start trying to manufacture scrnarios where they can abuse this then the enemies get wise - the next time they try to use it the enemy simply begins climbing down. The players get one extra round of buffing, but aren't likely to force any more enemies to leap to their deaths.
This spell is designed to force enemies into dangerous positions. It's a compulsion spell (like dominate person) NOT a charm spell (like charm person). Compulsion means it compells enemies to do what they wouldn't do normally.
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Just for the record:
Creatures that take lethal damage from a fall land in a prone position.
If you end prone and then crawl you aren't obeying to the best of your ability, you are trying to move as slowly as possible.
If you end prone and then stand up you aren't moving toward the caster.Unless the other ways to reach the caster will require more time than the above options, the other ways to reach hit fulfill the command better.
Move has a specific meaning in Pathfinder. Jumping or falling off a cliff is not a “move”...
Hm. An interesting point. However, the Acrobatics skill states:
"Crossing Narrow Surfaces/Uneven Ground
First, you can use Acrobatics to MOVE on narrow surfaces and uneven ground without falling..."
and
"MOVE Through Threatened Squares
In addition, you can MOVE through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When MOVING in this way, you MOVE at half speed..."
and then there's the effects of movement speed and a running start in regards to Acrobatics for jumping.
I couldn't actually find a clear definition of "move" that shows it means any specific rule or mechanic and not the general definition of "1. to go in a specified direction or manner; change position. 2. make progress; develop in a particular manner or direction." Could you point me in the direction of something more cut and dry?
If you end prone and then crawl you aren't obeying to the best of your ability...
Sure you are. If you are prone, the best you can do is crawl. Your "ability" will have different bests in different situations.
Unless the other ways to reach the caster will require more time than the above options, the other ways to reach hit fulfill the command better.
Except that command (approach) says you move towards the caster both as QUICKLY and as DIRECTLY as possible.
I mean, "quickly" just implies distance covered over time, so you could conceivably argue that falling or running at a dead sprint is following the command more closely than a carefully chosen path, even if the prior leaves you further away from the caster than the latter.