I've started a multi tier game that includes some kingmaker AP rules. A player wants to transport some of there starting bp to a different location via ship and are asking for a rate to do this.
I've spent the last couple hours digging around looking for any references or any starting point to math out what the appropriate capacity would be for a ship for bp. Naturally, the main issue here isn't just doing a gold to bp equivalent because theyd need to transport people and building material. I use to have a determined algorithm for what I said was the ratio of people to material for bp, but that is long since lost.
Is there any rules anywhere that I'm not finding in which says how much bp a ship can carry?
Alternatively, are there any rules in jade regent that can provide a conversation reference point to determine to transport bp capacity per such and such? I know jade regent uses Cargo Units, I was thinking maybe 25 bp per wagon? since kingmaker ap has a caravan arrived with like 2 wagons for 50 bp? However, I dont feel like getting the jade regent pdf to see how many cargo units each wagon can carry and I dont see cargo units listed on paizo's site.
BP is kind of nebulous. BP approximates 4k in trade goods that are useful in constructing a kingdom. BP also includes personnel as well as goods. Generally speaking, BP a kingdom creates should be able to move themselves.
For amounts under 50 BP I'd assume one or two mercantile ships, which may or may not be disassembled as part of the BP. The lack of naval units for kingdom rules makes this really abstract. The main reason I'd say one ship is because the section on starting a new settlement suggests 50 BP and mentions the possibility of a ship full of supplies. Again, its vague.
BTW, just thought I should mention that shipping BP outside of the area a kingdom claims just lets you make gifts. To start building at that location the Kingdom needs to claim that hex, or effectively they are starting a new Kingdom there and the new Kingdom needs to explore and claim the hex.
Meirril wrote:
BTW, just thought I should mention that shipping BP outside of the area a kingdom claims just lets you make gifts. To start building at that location the Kingdom needs to claim that hex, or effectively they are starting a new Kingdom there and the new Kingdom needs to explore and claim the hex.
the term you are looking for, I think, is they need to settle... or make a settlement. Which includes exploring and claiming the hex.
I have the rules for that, I need to reference rules to transporting bp. It should not be assumed they 'salvage' their ship for bp because what if they need to escape? or its a hired ship? then again all that is player choice.
Interesting, I don't think the rules cover such a thing (Downtime rules speak of transporting Capital, but Kingdom rules assume your BP is available to you anywhere in the kingdom)
If you want to transport BP somewhere else *within the kingdom* I'd say it just gets there.
If you want to transport BP somewhere outside of the kingdom to create a satellite settlement? I think I would use trade rules to see if the initial route is successfully established and all BP made it to destination.
"assuming it all made it" or "its just all available"
just doesnt feel right to me. too much instant gratification. people like it but its never tasted right, I prefer things taking time... having risk... needing proper expense and management.
want to trasport bp to that juicy mine spot 10 hexes away? gotta make sure you protect it, have the wagons to move it, etc.
oh, and hope it actually pays off too, of course.
You're thinking micro, the Kingdom Builder rules are very much macro.
If you want the kingdom micromanaged that's perfectly fine, but the rules themselves allow for a great room for the DM to zoom in and out as necessary.
Mine 10 Hexes away? Roll on the event table, see what happens. Tell players this might be a risky endeavor, ask them how they want to secure the transport. The "cost" to transport the goods is already included in the BP total, but any risk that may be associated with it is not.
Maybe a monster made a lair at the mine spot between the discovery and transport of resources and if not escorted, the workers will be eaten at their destination?
Maybe bandits learned about the shipment and set up an ambush along the way?
I want an interchangeable conversion of rules, macro and micro, that works together.
I want people to be able to shift between rules where it fits the nuance as well as to have rules that bridge the gaps as well. For instance, using population growth, recruitment impacting population and stability/loyalty, the bp challenges listed above....
but... also, using armies vs armies instead of doing a bunch individuals vs individuals battle fights between groups of npcs (with or without pc's).
In my game, I even allow people to choose to use capital mechanics, bp mechanics, or actual raw wealth mechanics for handling things. Each with its own pros and cons of course... accomodating wide ranges of nuances.
There are rules for moving wealth, I think there are rules for moving capital, there are NOT solid rules for moving BP. Though, its possible to formulate from capital and storage units in order to determine what an appropriate system would look like for bp.
Yes, there are rules for moving Capital.
they are "You tell DM you want your capital in city X instead of city Y, the DM tells you how long it will take and whether it will cost you anything extra"
You are in a deep realm of DM calls and house rules.
What you are asking for doesn't exist, perhaps a house rules forum would be a better bet, especially if you have some ideas to present.
Using Capital Mechanics interchangeably with BP and wealth rules is actually supported by the rules. 1 BP = 4000gp and each Capital also has its own value, you just do the required math.
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Kingmaker: 1 bp = 4,000 gp
Skull and Shackles: 1 plunder = 1,000 gp = 10 tons
Therefore 1 bp = 40 tons
Divide tonnage by ship capacity to determine number of trips needed.
Ships go about 50 miles per productive day
Figure out how many trips each ship makes and see how long each trip lasts. Assume 1 day minimum docked to load or unload.
/cevah
That seems usable... but also strange. BP can be a number of things, from raw materials to actual workers, it could even be actual gold. Giving it a flat 10 tons is a solution, but an odd one.
Cevah wrote: Kingmaker: 1 bp = 4,000 gp
Skull and Shackles: 1 plunder = 1,000 gp = 10 tons
Therefore 1 bp = 40 tons
Divide tonnage by ship capacity to determine number of trips needed.
Ships go about 50 miles per productive day
Figure out how many trips each ship makes and see how long each trip lasts. Assume 1 day minimum docked to load or unload.
/cevah
That, thank you cevah, that is very much what I was looking for. My brian just couldnt put it together like that, you are very much appreciated.
Plunder can include slaves, right? theoretically. So thatd cover bp near perfectly. I can also easily translate that into cargo units, if need be, as cargo units runs in tonnage as well.
I want to emphasize, thank you Cevah, you literally just gapped it all in one brilliant swoop.
Plunder does nor include slaves.
Skull and Shackles: Each crew over max requires 1 ton worth of storage.
So I would say 1 slave = 1 ton.
/cevah
Crew implies supplies to keep them healthy and happy.
Slaves don't need nearly as much.
If you are a slaver, you want to treat your 'property' well so you can get a good price when you sell. I recall reading somewhere that slaves were sometimes treated better just for this reason.
/cevah
That depends entirely on the value and skills of the slave.
Slavers (the ones that capture slaves) don't care.
Slave trainers and traders care a lot.
A slave ship would have slaves crammed in a cargo hold without even enough room for them to move around.
Look up slave deaths on the transatlantic trade some time if you want to be horrified. The traders there clearly were not keeping their cargo in the best possible condition.
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