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Effects (including abilities and spells) that change a creature’s speeds do not affect the speeds of powered armor that creature is wearing; the powered armor's speeds replaced
.......The language (doubling, halving, whatever) does not matter one bit. The speeds of the Powered Armor are not affected. The creature would still be staggered, but their movement speeds would be the same.
Gone for a few hours, but yes this is the counterpoint here, slow also targets the creature like haste does, so either both work or neither works pertaining to the altering of the numerical value of it's speeds.
Also my apologies, I misread the powered armor jockey, the archetype itself functions.
The prototype mechanic however does not, as the armor grants the creature wearing it a fly speed, wich cannot work with powered armor, as the armor still does not have a fly speed, this can be fixed by adding a simple errata.
If your armor prototype is a suit of powered armor, any alternate form of movement you would gain from this ability is instead applied to your armor.
This is just plain not true. To the point that it seems you don't like the faq enough to TRY to read it as a problem.
While I do not approve the state of this, that does not mean I cannot make a factual argument. Saying my argument is wrong because I do not like the ruling is entirely inappropriate.
Just to get my 2 cents out, I was part of a discussion on a different thread that was also about this problem.
The conclusion we came to is that : there are so many different effects that using the same rule for every single one of them would a an exercise in time wasting.
So we argued that baseline effects that affect a power armor user would not function, think speed suspension, the fleet feat, the blitz soldier, implanted wings.
But effects that are not active by default on your character would function as they are applied after the armor, so haste and slow would increase and decrease your speed as per normal, all levels of the fly spell would work normally, force soles, gravimetric harness perform their roles as intended.
If you mantain that these things target the creature rather than the armor, it is very easy to fall of a slippery slope that the armor is a seperate entity, wich is such a stupid deep pit that it is better to avoid it entirely.
TLDR So the interpetation we used was : The armor only replaces some base statistics, it's base speeds overwrite your own but can be interacted with as normal.
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While I do not approve the state of this, that does not mean I cannot make a factual argument. Saying my argument is wrong because I do not like the ruling is entirely inappropriate.
Stating that you don't have a factual argument (on this particular point) with the ONLY reason given being you don't like it would be an ad hom. But other reasons were given, very obvious ones.
1) Specific trumps general, if you have an ability that specifically lets you move faster in power armor then its not the general speed boost the faq talks about.
2) Increasing the armors speed, or adding a movement type to the armor isn't the same as adding it to the critter inside it. There's no contradiction between increasing the critters speed being ineffective and increasing the armors speed being effective... at all.
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I don't KNOW that slow won't slow down someone in power armor. That's my reading of it. The FAQ isn't supposed to cover every corner case, its probably good enough to get the table acceptance level to variable. Its not like being immune to slow is the cornerstone of a lot of builds (unless someones going to make groot xeno druid in heavy wooden armor that casts entangle on himself or something...)
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Stating that you don't have a factual argument (on this particular point) with the ONLY reason given being you don't like it would be an ad hom. But other reasons were given, very obvious ones.
Agreed, not Ad hom, but I did not state that, but your obvious reasons are just repeats without adressing the arguments.
1)Specific trumps general, already admitted I misread the power armor jockey, so that one just works.
2)The argument is, why does casting haste/slow or other not work on the armor being used by a character, it is their armor, it is part of them so to speak, it is not a vehicle, it is not a seperate entity, it is just a 'critter' wearing armor that replaces 2 base statistics.
As for adding speeds, read the class feature.
Versatile Design (Ex) 10th Level
Long hours of research and tinkering has taught you how to modify your experimental armor prototype on the fly. Your armor prototype grants you one of the following benefits: +1 to attack rolls, a fly speed of 50 feet (average maneuverability), a fly speed of 30 feet (perfect maneuverability), a swim speed of 30 feet, or darkvision with a range of 60 feet and low-light vision. With 10 minutes of work, you can change the ability granted by your prototype to any other one of these abilities.
It specifically notes that it grants YOU, the wearer said bonus.
As we discussed above, because this bonus is granted to the wearer, it is overwritten by the armor, so it cannot function RAW currently.
Hence why I suggested this errata to COM.
If your armor prototype is a suit of powered armor, any alternate form of movement you would gain from this ability is instead applied to your armor.
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Agreed, not Ad hom, fair enough, but your obvious reasons are just repeats without adressing the arguments.
No. That isn't factual.
You are making multiple arguments. They have different responses. You can't pretend that I'm just repeating myself without addressing the argument because I haven't answered ALL of them.
The point you objected to was the powered armor jockey and the prototype armor mechanic. The arguments for them not working have been addressed and you're not counting those arguments, at all.
1) Specific trumps general
2) Adding something directly to the armor circumvents the problem of increasing the characters speed entirely.
So there isn't any legitimate argument that the FAQ shuts down either of those two options. That is a completely separate argument (which i am 100% confident in) from haste and slow not having some eccumenical symmetry.
It specifically notes that it grants YOU, the wearer said bonus.
As we discussed above, because this bonus is granted to the wearer, it is overwritten by the armor, so it cannot function RAW currently.
This is patently ridiculous rules lawyering and it's not that the ability is broken it's that patently ridiculous rules lawyering breaks the game.
Its obvious from the description that the armor isn't anointing Antonio Austere (of Austere Weapons LTD) with the magical ability to fly. Antonio Austere is putting a jet pack in the armor. The ability tells you that.
Long hours of research and tinkering has taught you how to modify your experimental armor prototype on the fly.
There isn't any doubt that stuff on the power armor works on the power armor. There isn't any doubt that the ability to fly is on the power armor. You can't just take one sentence and ignore the rest.
2)The argument is, why does casting haste/slow or other not work on the armor being used by a character, it is their armor, it is part of them so to speak, it is not a vehicle, it is not a seperate entity, it is just a 'critter' wearing armor that replaces 2 base statistics.
You are looking for depth in a shallow pool. There isn't an underlying in world physics reason you can point to for the fly spell not working. Force soles work, a fly spell does not. It doesn't make any sense, but that's what the rules of the game parse out to.
I'm only 75% sure slow works on someone in power armor. But again, that's the kind of table variation you can live with because 1) i don't expect it to come up that often and 2) I don't expect someone to build their character around it.
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You are repeating yourself.
1)Once again I wholly agree with the specifics trump general argument.
The power armor jockey states that it adds speed to the armor, solid interpetation, admitted twice now. moving on.
2)Increasing the armor's speed is different from adding to the critter inside it. Yes of course this makes sense, floor is floor so to speak.
So why does Haste/slow/fly target the creature inside the armor as a seperate entity? Has it ever been established that the armor is a seperate entity from the user? No it has not, armor is part of the creature, else everybody that teleports would arrive with no clothes.
TLDR : why would these spells ignore the armor in the first place?
3)Yes I agree that the intention of the ability is for the user to fly while using power armor, as I stated no less than 3 times by now.
Nevermind the fact that ability is meant to work with any sort of armor, not just powered.
This blatant rules lawyering as you call it is just stating that;
A.RAW : the ability cannot function with powered armor, as the armor baseline overwrites the character.
B.RAI : yes it is meant to work in powered armor so add another line in the errata to leave no room for doubt.
If I did not make that clear, then apologies for vagueness.
4)RAW, force soles do not interact with any of these rules is true and therefore should work, fly does not.
RAI, force soles should not work because it makes no sense that my tiny ysoki feet inside this gargantuan power armor allow me to transfer that ability to my armor. Likewise casting fly on the ysoki in said armor using these rules would equal a furball pinballing in the cockpit as he attempts to fly while the armor goes nowhere.
There is plenty of argument to make for this, that is true enough, Just saying : Rules make no sense,deal with it, is no argument at all.
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You are repeating yourself.
You keep bringing up new arguments as if your old ones implied them and they don't.
So why does Haste/slow/fly target the creature inside the armor as a seperate entity? Has it ever been established that the armor is a seperate entity from the user? No it has not, armor is part of the creature, else everybody that teleports would arrive with no clothes.
Yes, it has been established up and down through the rules that the armor is equipment the PC is wearing not a seperate entity. The powered armor increases the pcs armor class. You can hit the PC wearing the armor, you can cast spells on the PC wearing the armor, the armor doesn't make separate saving throws, it replaces the wearers strength.
The armor doesn't have a BAB, a level, a weapon, an action pool or any of the things you'd expect of a creature.
TLDR : why would these spells ignore the armor in the first place?
Because we're playing a game and having the power armor act like a vehicle would be massively disruptive to that game and incredibly advantageous to the people using it.
This blatant rules lawyering as you call it is just stating that;
A.RAW : the ability cannot function with powered armor, as the armor baseline overwrites the character.
No. Its not the raw. It's one snippet of raw ignoring everything from the sentence that that word is in, to the paragraph that it's written in, to the entire theme of the class tree. They're not the same thing. -It doesn't work- is not THE raw it is at best a raw. (and that would be an incredibly generous way to describe it)
To see if the ability works on powered armor you have to ask if the ability to fly is on the person or the armor. With the Prototype mechanic that's really obvious to the point that I can't see the doubt as genuine.
RAI, force soles should not work because it makes no sense that my tiny ysoki feet inside this gargantuan power armor allow me to transfer that ability to my armor.
That isn't rai it's common sense or verisimilitude. (not always the same thing as rai.
There is plenty of argument to make for this, that is true enough, Just saying : Rules make no sense,deal with it, is no argument at all.
It is when your main argument is -we must get things expressly contradictory to the rules because the rules make no sense-. If a blanket rule does not make sense in every circumstance there is no point in pretending that it does.
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They might be differently worded, but most of my arguments are repeats, therefore it can be assumed that the opposite is true.
1)We agree on this, the armor is not a seperate entity, it is equipment that replaces base stats.
2)I think you misunderstood, I am asking : why would these spells ignore the armor if it is just part of the pc? (edit : I worded it very badly, apologies)
3)As we have just established, the armor is just pc equipment that replaces some stats, so why can these stats not be interacted with.
Ergo, why should haste not increase your speed/the armor's speed? The only thing the armor did was grant you a new base speed you original speed should be outside the equation all together.
4)So we agree that there is a way to interpret the sentence in that way, if in your words : you are very generous.
I had already stated that the obvious intention is clear, change the wording a bit and it's done.
5)Agreed, common sense does not always equal RAI but it often does.
6)As we just said, Rai does not always equal common sense but it often does, if the rules make no sense but work as written, that just means people will hate the rules or find ways to abuse them. That is why this part of the forum exists.
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They might be differently worded, but most of my arguments are repeats, therefore it can be assumed that the opposite is true.
1)We agree on this, the armor is not a seperate entity, it is equipment that replaces base stats.
2)I think you misunderstood, I am asking : why would these spells ignore the armor if it is just part of the pc? (edit : I worded it very badly, apologies)
3)As we have just established, the armor is just pc equipment that replaces some stats, so why can these stats not be interacted with.
Ergo, why should haste not increase your speed/the armor's speed? The only thing the armor did was grant you a new base speed you original speed should be outside the equation all together.
A) treating it exactly as any other piece of equipment will also get silly in SOME circumstances. Putting a jetpack in second skin skivvies and flying around with it for example.
B) Because the rules say that they don't. You're making an appeal to perfect consistency in a system that isn't perfectly consistent.
So we agree that there is a way to interpret the sentence in that way, if in your words : you are very generous. I had already stated that the obvious intention is clear, change the wording a bit and it's done.
You do NOT need to change the wording. At all. You need to read the words differently. There's a difference. You are NEVER going to get a readable, complex system that can't be dissected and misread somehow. (this is why lawyers get so much money even after all pretenseof readability has been tossed out the window.) You have to at least TRY to read the rules as they are, in context, or you will get them wrong. This is why I keep saying you're TRYING to manufacture a problem where there isn't one with the protype mechanic. the RAW and RAI are both very clear that you're upgrading your armor even if you can take one sentence out of context, run it through the grammar chainsaw and decide it means the opposite of what it says.
As we just said, Rai does not always equal common sense but it often does, if the rules make no sense but work as written, that just means people will hate the rules or find ways to abuse them. That is why this part of the forum exists.
Lots of parts of the rules don't make any real world sense and people are fine with them because they're necessary for having a game. (like for example, why isn't ALL exploration done by unmanned drones? Or sniping just outright kill people?) Whats important is getting people on the same page so they agree on how these things work and whether or not they want to use that option for their character.
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A) This point is actually made moot already, upgrades that you put in
your light armor while wearing power armor do not function. This isreasonable and has been FAQ already
B) The system is not perfectly consistent, agreed. There does however,
need to be enough consistency that table variation does not become
extreme.
For the fourth time, yes I understand how the ability works, it can still be read in the wrong way, adding a few words makes it immune to that sort of interpetation. To be clear, yes I agree that it works , but 1-10 is still an way to error.
Slippery slope right here, these things are absolute extremes, why isn't all exploration done by drones? Because then there would be no game.
Why does sniping not outright kill people, because end of the day it is still just a weapon, a sniper bullet will do the same job as a shotgun shell, kill something dead, this cannot work in this game so all guns just deal damage numbers.
Why can power armor speeds not be interacted with, because rules!
The mechanic adjusts their armor to have a different speed, so we have established that an armor's speeds and movement types can be interacted with.
There is no perfect rule yes, but you can lay a foundation to judge case by case situations fairly, judging by the fair bit of discussion, not everyone is on the same page about the current rules on this.
A pilot has a MK III speed suspension, he climbs into the armor, the speed suspension does not work because the armor replaces his speed, makes sense.
A pilot jumps into his armor, let's use this example as a case study.
Haste is cast on the pilot while wearing armor, let's take the side of it not working this time.
Running into a couple of enemies, the first thing they do is cast slow, but the power armor has it's own speed so it is not affected by the speed reduction.
To add another example.
A vanguard is piloting power armor, can he channel his entropic strike through the armor? For ease of play I would say yes, it's magical void powers. Or is it, he is not using his own 10 god-given digits so he cannot do jack.
I'm having trouble really buying this "it only applies when it's convenient" sort of interpretation of the rules.
The text is pretty clear about what happens if you try to change a creature's speed while wearing powered armor: it doesn't.
Trying to apply order of operations and say a certain spell is meant to happen after rather than before ends up being pretty arbitrary, since you could make that argument (or the inverse) about any effect, which is the whole reason this ruling was made in the first place.
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I'm having trouble really buying this "it only applies when it's convenient" sort of interpretation of the rules.
The text is pretty clear about what happens if you try to change a creature's speed while wearing powered armor: it doesn't.
Trying to apply order of operations and say a certain spell is meant to happen after rather than before ends up being pretty arbitrary, since you could make that argument (or the inverse) about any effect, which is the whole reason this ruling was made in the first place.
I am aware, but saying it only applies when convienient is the opposite, if a speed can be changed it can be both increased and decreased.
If a speed cannot be changed you can do neither.
It cannot only be positives but it also cannot only be negatives.
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For the fourth time, yes I understand how the ability works, it can still be read in the wrong way, adding a few words makes it immune to that sort of interpetation. To be clear, yes I agree that it works , but 1-10 is still an way to error.
We have a very limited bandwith for faqs corrections and clarifications.
Using it for something that is clear enough for any good and honest reading of the rules is good enough. Complaining about a grossly out of context reading not working is just asking for hypertechnical language that loses more people than it picks up.(Edit: note. This applies only to the prototype armor ability working. There's legit variation on some other points but...)
Slippery slope right here, these things are absolute extremes, why isn't all exploration done by drones? Because then there would be no game.
Exactly. And if power armor worked like a mecha there wouldn't be any game for anyone outside a mecha (unless someone wrote a gundam/one punch cross over rpg system..._
Why can power armor speeds not be interacted with, because rules!
That's how they decided to do it. So that's how it works. Again
A pilot jumps into his armor, let's use this example as a case study.
Haste is cast on the pilot while wearing armor, let's take the side of it not working this time.
This isn't a side. That was specifically what people were wondering about and the answer is no.
Running into a couple of enemies, the first thing they do is cast slow, but the power armor has it's own speed so it is not affected by the speed reduction.
The spells cancel each other out (whether they have any effect or not...) and even IF there's table variation there
So what? Is your character unplayable because of it? Did you build your character around being able to not be slowed in power armor? Did you invest in character options
Whether you can fly in mech armor or get bionic legs is a character changing decision that absolutely needs clarification from on high. Whether entangles slows and difficult terrains are in the same catagory...meh.
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Ah, Slow still has an effect... makes ya Staggered. That doesn't have any effect on your move speed, so it still applies to a power armored character.
Similarly, Haste lets you move and take a full attack. I don't see why that wouldn't work even though your armor doesn't go any faster.
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1) This is fair, it took 2.5 years for this FAQ to come out.
Hope common sense proves your point, I don't have abolute faith in
players.
2) While it would be cool for power armor to work like mecha,
never advocated for it. You can bring a combat walker vehicle instead.
3) Numerical altering does not work, Rules are Rules, paizo campaign.
Just want to know if both sides of this are in play, I believe they
are. Hope they make a power armor jetpack eventually.
4) Not unplayable, but was planning on flying in power armor, hyped the
Character development up a bunch. Though it does mean I spent the
Majority of my wealth on stuff I cannot use, would prob ask for a redo.
5) My gratitude for staying for the long haul.
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From what I understood, these would probaply be how it works. Except the difficult terrain stuff, or paralysis. All numerical alteration is out the window.