The glimpse of the anti paladin we got in the Game Mastery Guide has what I am assuming is the version of Champions reactions like retribution strike.
Unless I am missing something it is not good
Boiled down it works like this:
As a reaction when you are struck you may add 2d6 damage to the attack that is hitting you to then cause 2d6 damage to the attacker. You also gain 2 to damage on your strikes during your next round.
I hope Paizo can rework this as it has two glaring flaws:
1. For Champions AC is what they do. So why would I help my enemies by adding to the power of any blow lucky enough to connect.
2. Antipaladins do not get lay of hands so most likely are going to have 0 healing. While this makes senses thematically it also makes a power that causes me to soak more damage a poor choice.
I dont know maybe it is a missprint and it is supposed to decrease damage to the AP and cause it to the target.
Anyone else seeing something about this power that makes it better than what I am reading?
The glimpse of the anti paladin we got in the Game Mastery Guide has what I am assuming is the version of Champions reactions like retribution strike.
Unless I am missing something it is not good
Boiled down it works like this:
As a reaction when you are struck you may add 2d6 damage to the attack that is hitting you to then cause 2d6 damage to the attacker. You also gain 2 to damage on your strikes during your next round.
I hope Paizo can rework this as it has two glaring flaws:
1. For Champions AC is what they do. So why would I help my enemies by adding to the power of any blow lucky enough to connect.
2. Antipaladins do not get lay of hands so most likely are going to have 0 healing. While this makes senses thematically it also makes a power that causes me to soak more damage a poor choice.
I dont know maybe it is a missprint and it is supposed to decrease damage to the AP and cause it to the target.
Anyone else seeing something about this power that makes it better than what I am reading?
The version they used in the 2nd part of the Playtest module was also basically a natural 20 only effect since it required a critical against you, and being the best armored class meant only 20s could realistically critically hit you unless you're facing something that could easily TPK your party if you aren't rested or have proper tactics. So not only was it less useful, but it was also something that punished overly excessive attacks, which is in a large part some bad design, since overachievers are more likely to be punished than some not-so-optimized players.
Some mechanics can (and do) work that way, but something like this is similar to having something super powerful that triggers when you are brought to Dying. In other words, setting yourself up for failure, something a smart Evil creature would never do unless it was for a much greater success later.
In my opinion, this version of it is a little lame because A. It does not scale worth a damn compared to the Good-aligned Champion powers that do (even if it's not proficiency based, which IMO it should be), and B. This requires you to always be on the offensive when you do use it. Sure, there is always the option to not use the reaction, but dead class features should not be a thing, especially a feature as iconic as this one for the Champion class as a whole.
Honestly, being able to reduce the damage to yourself on a hit as well as make an attack against the enemy that hit you is both a fair reaction and one that is available to certain creatures (which are more often than not also Evil). With it having the same range as the other reactions (15 feet), it's not broken when the tactic of "kite and shoot it from afar" is a fairly good counter to all kinds of Champions, as well as "Use effects which cause no damage to debilitate them severely." This works better in concert with the Evil Champions' lack of ability to heal themselves (or others), since this is made up for with added offensive capability (which doesn't affect MAP, and is probably going to be not as effective due to save/DC scaling).
A Neutral Evil Champion reaction could be Glimpse of Despair, where an enemy making an attack on them would be Frightened 2 until the end of their next turn as well as reduce the damage they take, taking effect immediately and potentially causing the attack to miss (or not critically hit).
A Lawful Evil Champion reaction could be similar to the Liberator cause, except working only on themselves and maybe providing a +2 Status bonus to the attempt. Call it Axiomatic Chastisement or something.
One thing that this thread did teach me is that when I was originally trying to decide how to make these reactions for when I wanted to design Evil Champion BBEGs, is that I was going about it all wrong; trying to match the alignment effects instead of inversing it (which makes sense both thematically and mechanically) made confusing abilities that didn't apply too well. So while this thread may not have accomplished what it was hoping to accomplish, I do appreciate the inadvertent insight it has brought me!
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Generally it's fine if "evil abilities" are written with antagonists who are intended to last one or possibly a few fights in mind, rather than PCs who have a whole day worth of adventuring to get in every single day.
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Generally it's fine if "evil abilities" are written with antagonists who are intended to last one or possibly a few fights in mind, rather than PCs who have a whole day worth of adventuring to get in every single day.
Disagree, especially since PF2 has gone out of its way to put some separation between monster creation and PC creation rules. Class-based options should always probably be player-facing.
Disagree, especially since PF2 has gone out of its way to put some separation between monster creation and PC creation rules. Class-based options should always probably be player-facing.
It's just that the overwhelming majority of antipaladins that appear on Pathfinder tables are going to be antagonists who don't need to survive long term.
Someone who voluntarily aligns themselves with Rovagug (for example) isn't doing much in the way of long-term thinking anyway.
This is probably an early draft, but we can expect the effect to be similar and that will probably scale, because you can see that Touch of Corruption don't have the heightening effect as well.
The effect is most likely you take more damage to inflict damage to the enemy and then gain extra negative/evil damage to your attacks, we just don't know how it scales or even what part of the effect the other evil champions there share.
I have created a Death knight for my homebrew their reaction is this:
Reaping Retribution
Reaction :r:
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Champion
Trigger An enemy damages you or Your Ally and both are within 15' of you.
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You protect yourself or an ally and strike the triggering foe. You can choose either yourself or your ally to be the target of your Reaping Retribution and it will Siphon a number of hit points from the triggering foe equal to 2+ your level that will heal you or your Ally. If the triggering foe is within reach, make a melee Strike Against it. If the Death Knight is the subject of the attack and has Armor of Blood up then it will charge up the Armor and if the Death Knight has Weapon of Blood up then it will also charge up the Ability.
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There are lots of abilities which some NPCs have that don't exist within the PC class framework. I really wouldn't read too far into something on an NPC yet.
Generally it's fine if "evil abilities" are written with antagonists who are intended to last one or possibly a few fights in mind, rather than PCs who have a whole day worth of adventuring to get in every single day.Disagree, especially since PF2 has gone out of its way to put some separation between monster creation and PC creation rules. Class-based options should always probably be player-facing.
But the whole point of this discussion is an attempt to extrapolate a PC ability from AN NPC ABILITY. So the fact that this ability isn't great for a player is irrelevant as it isn't supposed to be? Also, not all options have to be equally optimal.