I feel slow that I haven't got the full grasp of this after 7 months. But I'm going to give a couple of scenarios to make sure I'm getting this right.
1) Fighter walks up to the door. Listens. Hears some orcs on the other side. He decides to kick in the door and bust in on them.
He rolls a 27 for Athletics. The door breaks. It's initiative time. Since his Athletics was 27, that's what he uses for initiative. Orcs roll Perception for theirs as normal.
2) Fighter listens at door, yada yada. Kicks it in. Gets a 27. Door breaks. Now it's time for initiative. He rolls Athletics separately for initiative. Gets a 12 or something. Orcs roll Perception for theirs.
3) Fighter kicks at door. Gets a 12. Door doesn't break. Orcs are alerted. His initiative score is 12 for his Athletics roll. etc etc
Then. Stealth is the one that gets me. A character is surprising somebody (lower-case surprise. As there is no Surprise).
1) Rogue sneaks up on a creature. Gets a 32 Stealth roll. Creature's Perception roll (or passive Perception score) is a 19. Rogue wins. He decides at that point to attack. His initiative is 32 (for his Stealth roll). Creature's initiative is 19. Fight starts.
2) Rogue sneaks up. Wins Stealth roll. Decides to attack. Separate initiative rolls. He uses Stealth. Creature uses Perception.
I tend to think it's #1 because... if they rolled initiative again separately, and the creature won initiative... it doesn't even know anything is happening because it didn't see the rogue in the first place. So the whole situation would necessitate on the Rogue going first. Right?
I've been using the first example in the Athletics case. If the fighter kicks down the door, that's his initiative roll.
Am I right? Wrong? Dumb? Misguided? Sleepy?
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So most times this come down to the difference between exploration mode and encounter mode.
Until the encounter starts you are in exploration mode and the situation is being described by the GM.
As you said your fighter/Rogue is approaching a door and hears the orcs on the other side (you are using the seek exploration activity).
When you are told the situation and decide to enter encounter mode you are given options for initiative.
You roll the appropriate skill for initiative and there you go.
For stealth if you beat the creature's perception DC you are not detected by the creature until you do something that makes you detected.
So if you got a lower initiative than the opponent but were still hidden the opponent depending on the situation will ether do nothing wasting it's turn or if it thinks there is something going on it can take seek actions to try to find you or maybe take defensive actions.
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FunkamusPrime has made a series of YouTube videos walking through various situations in the new ruleset. You might like this one on Initiative and Surprise. It helped me get my mind around it.
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Am I right? Wrong? Dumb? Misguided? Sleepy?In nearly all situations, you can default to Perception on both sides.
Typically, you’ll roll a Perception check to determine your initiative—the more aware you are of your surroundings, the more quickly you can respond. Sometimes, though, the GM might call on you to roll some other type of check.
My confusion wasn't about what to roll for initiative. Using Athletics for initiative I actually got from a Jason B example.
My question was about whether the initiative required a second roll.But I'll check the vids. Thanks.
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Okay. That answers my main question, then. At least about the Athletics example. It's the same roll.
As far as a player rolling poorly and having them use the same roll. For Stealth, I'd say yes. You don't only get to use the same roll if it's good.
But for your Deception example, where he doesn't decide to start a fight until his Deception roll fails, and he's upset about it.
I see your point. Because the fight hasn't started at that point. He decides to start it because of the failed roll.
Maybe have him roll Deception again to see if he can swing before the other guy notices?
That's a tough one.
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What's missing from the rules is a formal discussion of the player's choice in what is used for Init prior to rolling.
That doesn't seem to be missing- it is _never_ the players choice, as quoted above.
Though I don't actually see anything that says that the initiative roll would not be a new, separate roll.
The typical perception check is specifically for initiative, not to spot anything. The example for not using Perception (if you were Avoiding Notice during exploration), simply states you'd roll a Stealth check. Or Deception/Diplomacy if social encounters. None of those skill rolls suggest they do anything but set your initiative number.
In the games I've played, if I tell the GM I want to track, but will use Perception for an Init check, they've never denied that request so long as I make it before I roll the Survival check.
Oh, absolutely. The point is definitely not to be a jerk or to penalize the player.
Just to not let someone say they want a different skill roll because they rolled low in the first place.
So what happens when we throw Terrain Stalker into the mix, so that I'm automatically undetected without having to roll? Am I forced to use my lower bonus Perception for Initiative, or can I roll Stealth for Initiative, and we just ignore the result for Detection purposes?
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So what happens when we throw Terrain Stalker into the mix, so that I'm automatically undetected without having to roll? Am I forced to use my lower bonus Perception for Initiative, or can I roll Stealth for Initiative, and we just ignore the result for Detection purposes?
With terrain stalker you get an automatic success at the Sneak action (and so remain Undetected by the enemy) regardless of what you rolled (so you don't need to roll during exploration), but you would still roll a stealth check to determine initiative since you were using the Avoid Notice exploration activity at the onset of the combat.
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3. Rogue rolls poorly, but not as poorly as the enemy. So the rogue wins initiative, but fails to beat Perception DC. He is spotted, but at least gets to act first.
So far, these have all been relatively straight-forward. But this is where it gets a little funky.
4. Rogue loses initiative but beats the enemy's Perception DC. This means that the Rogue is undetected, but not unnoticed. The enemy knows something's up but not what. The enemy can now start moving about and use actions to Seek.
#3 confuses me slightly, so I'll try to see if I can figure out what you mean.
So... rogue rolls poorly on Stealth, and doesn't beat their Perception DC. But their Perception DC isn't their initiative.. just his target number. So they then roll Perception for initiative, but roll lower than the rogue. So, his Stealth was a low number, and he gets spotted as a result, but it's also his initiative result, which is higher than theirs.Am I getting that right?
Jeez louise, I'm sorry to be stirring all this up. I'm just trying to get my head around it and make sure I'm doing it right.
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Heh, these corner cases are valuable to work out in full because what should happen is not always intuitive. In short I think you have the right idea. When it comes to starting a fight hidden, the only thing that matters is if you beat their DC.
If mook 5 has a Perception DC of 15 but you only roll 14 on Stealth-Init, you are spotted, BUT if Mook's Initiative roll only comes out to 2, it still spots you but you react faster. This is regardless what skill it happens to be using for Init.
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And how do secret rolls affect this? In theory, the rogue’s initial stealth roll should be secret, so they don’t know whether or not they succeeded at that or what the number is.
Unlike the Hide and Sneak actions, I do not believe the Avoid Notice Exploration Activity has the Secret trait.
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Whew. Okay.
And I watched those videos too.
Thanks so much, you guys. This discussion really helps me.
I love this game so much. I know the rules for PF1 backwards in my sleep. And I'm trying my best to become masterful at PF2 to make my game run as smoothly at the table as I can.
The Stealth vs. Perception example is really the easiest case to comprehend other than the straight-forward everyone sees each other and they all roll Perception for initiative.
Your athletics example is much more messy.
However, similar cases have been discussed at length in other threads on this board with no consensus reached, so I really don't want to go there again...
Just some points to consider:
- If you use Athletics for initiative, is breaking open the door the last thing that happens in exploration mode, or the fighter's first action in encounter mode?
- If it's the former, why even use Athletics, when the door's already gone? Also, if you use the same roll, it would mean the tougher the door, the higher your fighter will be on the initiative order (as, say, a high-DC door can only be broken down by a low-level fighter rolling very high, and if he fails the roll, the door is still there and thus there really is no combat, unless the enemies happen to have the key and have heard and reason to be concerned about the thump against the door). The difference to the stealth example is obviously that the fighter's actions here serve to remove the physical barrier between the two groups, and without that first there cannot be combat.
- If it's the latter, is the fighter required to stick to his announced decision of breaking open the door, once his turn in initiative order comes up? If he can just abandon the idea and walk away, why was he allowed to roll athletics for initiative, and why was there even a roll at all, considering that the triggering event doesn't even happen? However, if he cannot change his mind, he's vastly disadvantaged by having to let everyone know ahead of time, despite noone else in initiative order otherwise ever being required to do so.
But before going there disucssion-wise, check out the other thread(s) and then reconsider... :)
The reason I do Athletics that way is one of the devs, maybe Jason, used it as an example in a stream of other rolls you could make for initiative. He used kicking in the door as an example. So that's where I got it.
I had just been confused on how it works.
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Just some points to consider:
- If you use Athletics for initiative, is breaking open the door the last thing that happens in exploration mode, or the fighter's first action in encounter mode?- If it's the former, why even use Athletics, when the door's already gone? Also, if you use the same roll, it would mean the tougher the door, the higher your fighter will be on the initiative order (as, say, a high-DC door can only be broken down by a low-level fighter rolling very high, and if he fails the roll, the door is still there and thus there really is no combat, unless the enemies happen to have the key and have heard and reason to be concerned about the thump against the door). The difference to the stealth example is obviously that the fighter's actions here serve to remove the physical barrier between the two groups, and without that first there cannot be combat.
- If it's the latter, is the fighter required to stick to his announced decision of breaking open the door, once his turn in initiative order comes up? If he can just abandon the idea and walk away, why was he allowed to roll athletics for initiative, and why was there even a roll at all, considering that the triggering event doesn't even happen? However, if he cannot change his mind, he's vastly disadvantaged by having to let everyone know ahead of time, despite noone else in initiative order otherwise ever being required to do so.
I think Ched mostly has the answers they were looking for by now, but also I feel like it is important to remember that, with few exceptions, an initiative roll is just an initiative roll, regardless which skill your GM allows you to use. In most cases, your initiative roll doesn't even tie to any particular function of skill (though it can)--the example in the book of an Athletics initiative is two opponents squaring off for a wrestling match. Generally the choice of using a skill to roll initiative is an exception when a skill makes as much or more thematic sense as Perception to the circumstances, such as entering into a social combat or tricking your opponent into dropping their guard before attacking.
Stealth is the primary exception because of the Avoid Notice exploration activity, which specifically allows you to use your Initiative (Stealth) roll to double as a Sneak action. No other use of a skill for Initiative explicitly calls for a skill check to double as an initiative roll, though you are free to allow it if you feel appropriate. In the example of kicking down the door I would say the act of (or attempt to) kicking down the door is the last thing before initiative is rolled. To address the points raised (at least from my PoV)
a) You are not forced to use Athletics, but the action that you took to start this combat was thematically Athletic, so you were given the option. Note that if you didn't know the orcs were there I would be a little more hesitant to give that option but others may vary.
b) If you use the same result, it actually wouldn't necessarily mean that tougher doors get you a higher initiative--you will still roll Initiative if you fail to break down the door because both parties have detected the other and an Encounter has been called, even if they can't see each other yet.
c) If we arbitrarily decide the door is locked and that the orcs for some reason don't have a key to their own lair, the Encounter may or may not still happen depending on other circumstances. Encounters are mostly but not exclusively combat-oriented, so initiative may be called even if there is no way (yet) for the opposing forces to engage in combat, but they may take turns at being the one to smash down the door, and nobody gets initiative advantage for finally rolling high enough. On the other hand the orcs may all choose to set themselves up around the room and simply wait behind cover, ready to take reactions when the party manages to break through now that the element of surprise has been lost. If, after the door fails to break, one or both parties decide to pick up and move elsewhere, I'd probably not call for Initiative as even if the door does eventually fall, the actual encounter wouldn't happen until the group that broke the door tracked down the group that moved away.
TL;DR - By RAW the only scenario where your Initiative roll uses any other function of the skill is when Avoiding Notice, so if you are using a skill to enter a combat, you would make a separate initiative roll no different than if you chose to roll Perception for initiative. You may decide just for flair to allow the player's last skill roll before entering combat to double as their initiative result which imho pretty minimal consequences, the majority of which can be covered with the usual guidelines (and confusion) that come with negotiating the transition from Exploration to Encounter.