I'm making this thread not as a complain thread, but because I'm sure there must be a genuine reason for it that I'm not seeing. Why is it that the summon blank spells lag behind in level as the caster levels? It seems to me it should stay basically the same (2 levels behind caster) since proficiencies are based on level. As it is now the farther along a caster gets, the worse the spell gets. At level 20, a level 15 creature is gonna be garbage against a cr 20 creature (not to mention parties might be fighting even higher than cr 20 encounters!), And that's using a level 10 spell.
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Tactical abilities become more impactful than base statistics. A summoned creature is not going to be a great idea against a boss (creatures party level and above) unless they have a particularly effective ability.
Is a creature of a cr equal to the party really a boss though? At lower levels at least, it isn't. Plus at higher levels you have so many more tools in your toolbox to be tactical with. I don't know, I'm not really seeing why it has to be 5 levels lower
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Partly caution because summoned creatures were always crazy powerful in 1st edition.
I think the spells are a little weak because of that. BUT. Important to remember after the cast (which is maybe too long at 3 actions), what you have to decide is if an extra body, often extra flank set-ups and what ever the creature does is a good 3rd action. That's the comparison, it's a 3rd action.
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It's a third and fourth action, costing you your third action, and maybe not that with a feat.
That a large variety of spells, breath weapons, etc. available, 1/round for 10 rounds (maybe even an unlimited spell 10x). So it's significant, though yes, never blatantly powerful. It has too much versatility to also match other spells in power and it put an ally on the board which opens up lots more actions.
It may be weaker, but maybe your Bard is boosting everybody that round, the Fighter just tripped & intimidated the target, and so on. There's a cumulative effect going on.
Plus, many creatures have automatic powers, auras, buffs they can pass on, or what not. As the Bestiaries expand, so will the versatility.
It's a third and fourth action, costing you your third action, and maybe not that with a feat.
That a large variety of spells, breath weapons, etc. available, 1/round for 10 rounds (maybe even an unlimited spell 10x). So it's significant, though yes, never blatantly powerful. It has too much versatility to also match other spells in power and it put an ally on the board which opens up lots more actions.
It may be weaker, but maybe your Bard is boosting everybody that round, the Fighter just tripped & intimidated the target, and so on. There's a cumulative effect going on.
Plus, many creatures have automatic powers, auras, buffs they can pass on, or what not. As the Bestiaries expand, so will the versatility.
I haven't played enough of it yet but some of the creatures that you can summon are very tough. I used a Purple Worm in the playtest and it was very effective.
For sure if the enemy focuses on it they will go crit,crit,crit. But you can't be too unhappy with that those attacks aren't going on you.The various summon list are open, so summon animal literally gets all level appropriate animals as options. Not such a big deal but what about the spells that summon fey or abberations? So many options.
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In PF1 the summoned monsters could be your tank, your frontline, provide a lot of utility (summon level 14 cleric, etc.) entirely replace your martials, etc.
In PF2, they can't replace your martials. They can be sacks of hit points that soak up enemy attacks, they can provide spells and utility, but they won't threaten party level+ enemies on their own.
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I'm not trying to figure out why summons are as strong as they are, only why they fall behind in level as the caster does. I don't think that at any point a summon can tank, replace a martial, etc. But at lower levels they have a decent chance of hitting a party level encounter and at higher levels the chance is much lower.
That being said, maybe theres some truth to what you guys are saying in that some summons can have useful spells/auras/what have you that make them worth it.
At lower levels you have less resources so it's good that the summons can be a little more reliable there.
At lvl 9 in the group that I GM Age of Ashes per example, the enemy boss is usually at -4AC from debuff + flat footed and the party with +1 or +2 to hit from a buff.
I'm not trying to figure out why summons are as strong as they are, only why they fall behind in level as the caster does. I don't think that at any point a summon can tank, replace a martial, etc. But at lower levels they have a decent chance of hitting a party level encounter and at higher levels the chance is much lower.
That being said, maybe theres some truth to what you guys are saying in that some summons can have useful spells/auras/what have you that make them worth it.
At lower levels they only contribute via attack rolls, and have few enough hit points they can die to a crit or two.
As they get higher in levels, the number of situational buffs/debuffs active at a time increase, the likelihood of a summon dying to a crit or two decreases, and the likelihood of a summon doing other things besides attacking increases.
So, how a summon gets used changes as they level.
I also think they should be at a fixed level compared to the caster. If it's gonna be Caster level -2 then a 7th Level (lv13 caster) summon better be a lv11 creature (that's not gonna hit anyone anyways). The restriction on them not casting high level spells should be a good enough restriction to prevent them using the best abilities.
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To answer the ops question, it looks like it's to keep their damage in line as a proportion of a martial character's damage.
To answer the ops question, it looks like it's to keep their damage in line as a proportion of a martial character's damage.
This is really interesting. When it says Summon vs a Level-2 creature, that is lv-2 compared to the caster that summoned it? So for a lv11 caster using Summon 6, this is vs a level 9 monster?
This is really interesting. When it says Summon vs a Level-2 creature, that is lv-2 compared to the caster that summoned it? So for a lv11 caster using Summon 6, this is vs a level 9 monster?To answer the ops question, it looks like it's to keep their damage in line as a proportion of a martial character's damage.
Yep.
In PF1 the summoned monsters could be your tank, your frontline, provide a lot of utility (summon level 14 cleric, etc.) entirely replace your martials, etc.
In PF2, they can't replace your martials. They can be sacks of hit points that soak up enemy attacks, they can provide spells and utility, but they won't threaten party level+ enemies on their own.
Yeah, summoners can’t go solo with their summons. But they can still be quite effective with some teamwork.
Well okay. That is very informative, thank you. If a summon gives around the same dpr as a cantrip then I would say that's pretty good. I have to imagine that it gets a lot worse as the cr the party is fighting goes up but still, not as bad as I thought.