Non-fertile human hybrids?

[deuxhero]

Are there any races descended from humans that have the proper anatomy for reproduction (some Changlings and Planetouched don't) that explicitly are not fertile with humans? Tieflings, Aasimar and Half-Dragons explicitly can, and I presume Changelings and Dhampir can as well since there's sorcerer bloodlines for them. I don't know off-hand anything about Half-Elves being fertile with humans in Pathfinder, but I'd presume they're fertile given their prominence I'd expect it would have been mentioned by now if they weren't.

[Adjoint]

Morlocks and dark folk, maybe? I've never heard about half-fetchlings or half-gillmen either.

[deuxhero]

I didn't even consider the monsters that spawned from humanity! That's a good point.

[Deadmanwalking]

Half Elves and Half Orcs are both explicitly interfertile with humans and their other respective parent species.

That said, Adjoint's list sounds right for examples that are no longer cross-fertile with humans.

For Tieflings, Dhampirs, and Aasimar (and probably also Changelings), it's also worth noting that they can also be descended from species other than Humans and will be handled as a Heritage available to all Ancestries in PF2 (this was explicitly already the case in PF1 for at least Tieflings and Aasimar, the rules just weren't great at reflecting it).

[Perpdepog]

It's a fantasy world; my baseline assumption is that anything can produce viable offspring with anything unless we are expressly told otherwise.
And even then, I'm not discounting the combined world-defying powers of strong magic and stronger liquor.

[Deadmanwalking]

Perpdepog wrote:

It's a fantasy world; my baseline assumption is that anything can produce viable offspring with anything unless we are expressly told otherwise.

And even then, I'm not discounting the combined world-defying powers of strong magic and stronger liquor.

The assumption of Golarion seems to be that anything can produce viable offspring with anything else [i]with the intervention of magic[i]. But whether they can do so just by, y'know, getting it on, is a different matter and clearly species specific (Half Dwarf is not a standard Ancestry option, for example).

[Zapp]

I don't think the intention is that the absence of X should be taken to say "X cannot exist in the world".

Just that X isn't archetypal or popular or frequent enough to warrant publishing special rules for X.

I believe it is much more worthwhile to say: "it's my world, I can do whatever I want with it".

For instance, if I want there to be characters with a Leshy for a mother and a Hobgoblin for a father, now there are Hobgobleshies, and I don't have to explain how :)

[Deadmanwalking]

For your own game? Absolutely.

But in order to build a coherent world, which Paizo have very much done with Golarion, you need a certain set of defaults, and one is pretty clearly which species can interbreed without magic being involved.

So, speaking canonically, which is what deuxhero seems to want, there is indeed a default set of creatures that can easily interbreed and others that can only do so with difficulty.

[Zapp]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

For your own game? Absolutely.

But in order to build a coherent world, which Paizo have very much done with Golarion, you need a certain set of defaults, and one is pretty clearly which species can interbreed without magic being involved.

So, speaking canonically, which is what deuxhero seems to want, there is indeed a default set of creatures that can easily interbreed and others that can only do so with difficulty.

Absolutely yes.

No wait.

You appear to agree with me and then turn around and say the exact opposite.

So let me try again:

The fact half-dwarves aren't in the CRB can be because
a) there are indeed no "naturally made" half-dwarves
b) the choice isn't one of the more popular ones among players, and space in the CRB was limited.
c) there aren't many half-dwarves in Golarion, so rules for them weren't a priority
d) CRB ancestries are selected for their "poster boy" qualities, and half-dwarves didn't make the cut
e) other, unspecified, James Jacobs hates half-dwarves, or other 2 :)

Since the rules don't say, there is no reason to assume any one of these is true but all others false.

So speaking canonically, which is what deuxhero seems to want, there is indeed a default set of creatures that can easily interbreed and others that might be able to do so just as easily, we just don't know.

[Deadmanwalking]

The rules don't say, but the entire setting seems predicated on "A" being the case. Which, since this is the setting Forum, seems the relevant thing when discussing what's canonical.

I just don't think canon should necessarily limit what's going on in a particular game, hence noting that it was fine to ignore that in a specific game.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

An example which may interest you is the ulat-kini, or skum, who are actually genetically modified humans and are incapable of breeding with one another but which nonetheless remain fertile with humans

[Phillip Gastone]

Perpdepog wrote:

It's a fantasy world; my baseline assumption is that anything can produce viable offspring with anything unless we are expressly told otherwise.

And even then, I'm not discounting the combined world-defying powers of strong magic and stronger liquor.

I can't link due to the creator also doing NSFW stuff. But one artist has done the adventures of a bard and his many adventurers with escaping alimony after meeting with

Dragons
Centaurs
Minotaurs
Rocks

I think it is high time that the halflings and humans of Kaer Maga find success in their quest to produce children together! Long live the Halmens!

[Zapp]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

An example which may interest you is the ulat-kini, or skum, who are actually genetically modified humans and are incapable of breeding with one another but which nonetheless remain fertile with humans

Heh.

That's because the reason why Skum exist is so we can reenact Lovecraftian stories where the Deep Ones come out of the ocean to steal our women and our jobs.

But mostly our women.

Zapp

PS. Fun fact: "skum" in Swedish doesn't just mean "foam". If something is "skumt" in Swedish, it's dodgy, shady, weird.

And Skum sure are dodgy - good ol' H.P. made damn sure of that! :-)

[Cole Deschain]

Zapp wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

An example which may interest you is the ulat-kini, or skum, who are actually genetically modified humans and are incapable of breeding with one another but which nonetheless remain fertile with humans

Heh.

That's because the reason why Skum exist is so we can reenact Lovecraftian stories where the Deep Ones come out of the ocean to steal our women and our jobs.

But mostly our women.

Zapp

PS. Fun fact: "skum" in Swedish doesn't just mean "foam". If something is "skumt" in Swedish, it's dodgy, shady, weird.

And Skum sure are dodgy - good ol' H.P. made damn sure of that! :-)

And then we went and got "regular" Deep Ones too.

Downright fishy!

[Phillip Gastone]

Somewhere here on the Carrion Crown section, some PCS actually negotiated a more benevolent relation ship between the DO/Villagers.

[DomHeroEllis]

Zapp wrote:

I don't think the intention is that the absence of X should be taken to say "X cannot exist in the world".

Just that X isn't archetypal or popular or frequent enough to warrant publishing special rules for X.

I believe it is much more worthwhile to say: "it's my world, I can do whatever I want with it".

For instance, if I want there to be characters with a Leshy for a mother and a Hobgoblin for a father, now there are Hobgobleshies, and I don't have to explain how :)

Side note: Are Leshy even fertile at all?

[Zapp]

DomHeroEllis wrote:

Side note: Are Leshy even fertile at all?

If you're asking if flowers and trees can be fertile just like animals and humans, the answer is very simple:

"Yes"

You just might call it by a different name, such as fecundity.

[krobrina]

As a simple thing, I would assign each species a random number and have the compatibilty defined by the difference between the numbers. Obviously assign the value for humans, elves and orcs to be similar. Dragons, demons and devils would have a wider range.

As a more complex thing, one could build some kind of cross-reference table.

But I also don't know why I would actually think about this.

[DomHeroEllis]

Zapp wrote:

DomHeroEllis wrote:

Side note: Are Leshy even fertile at all?

If you're asking if flowers and trees can be fertile just like animals and humans, the answer is very simple:

"Yes"

You just might call it by a different name, such as fecundity.

But can they breed and the child will have a Leshy spirit inside of it, or is the only way for Leshy to increase their numbers to forge a plant golem and then do the ritual.

...which would make a really cool short story with a twist.

[Zapp]

DomHeroEllis wrote:

But can they breed and the child will have a Leshy spirit inside of it, or is the only way for Leshy to increase their numbers to forge a plant golem and then do the ritual.

...which would make a really cool short story with a twist.

I think you're already aware, but just for completeness: now you're gliding over from "can they breed?" to "how do they breed?"

A question I'm sure you'll agree is best left unanswered. Use your imagination ;)

[Tender Tendrils]

DomHeroEllis wrote:

Zapp wrote:

DomHeroEllis wrote:

Side note: Are Leshy even fertile at all?

If you're asking if flowers and trees can be fertile just like animals and humans, the answer is very simple:

"Yes"

You just might call it by a different name, such as fecundity.

But can they breed and the child will have a Leshy spirit inside of it, or is the only way for Leshy to increase their numbers to forge a plant golem and then do the ritual.

...which would make a really cool short story with a twist.

I would say that Leshies can only reproduce by using the normal means of creating more Leshies - they are nature spirits that have been summoned into bodies of vegetable matter - an animate pile of sticks with an orange for a head and hair made out of flowers isn't a complete unified plant, its several plants and bits of plant put together.

Additionally, I think reproduction via druidic ritual is a lot more interesting from a narrative standpoint than doing it the same way as everyone else.

Heck, if I could light a bunch of candles around a ritual circle and create life by chanting it into existence, that would be way cooler than the normal process.

[Zapp]

Tender Tendrils wrote:

I think reproduction via druidic ritual is a lot more interesting from a narrative standpoint than doing it the same way as everyone else.

Heck, if I could light a bunch of candles around a ritual circle and create life by chanting it into existence, that would be way cooler than the normal process.

Sure. That's your take. Thank you.

As long as we agree there can be multiple takes, and that Paizo has so far not written anything that actively contradicts any of them.

Cheers :)