| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks for the Update!
May I ask why you rated te Shadow Bloodline blue? I mean, it does have the best Bloodline Spells among the Occult Bloodlines, but the first Bloodline Power is really really bad, especially at low levels.
You can't use it at all at levels 1 and 2 since there are no Darkness/Shadow spells at Occult level 1 (except the obscure and sub-par Penumbral Shroud from Gods and Magic). You can use it at levels 3 and 4 by casting Darkness but since that's 3 actions, you're stuck in the middle of the room without any opportunity to get into cover, making the use of Dim the Light more than questionable.
The only spells you can actually use Dim the Light with are:
- Chilling Darkness, not very strong in most campaigns.
- Eclipse Burst, very good spell except it's on all spell lists except occult. Can still be accessed via Crossblooded at least.
- Penumbral Shroud, which is just pretty bad?
- Shadow Blast, only good for hitting weaknesses and even then the "choose your save"-thing hurts its performance badly.
- Undermine Reality, an uncommon 8th level spell from an adcventure path. Most players probably won't get access to this - ever.
- And of course your other Bloodline powers, which turns it into a once-per-day trick unless you're at least level 12 and invest a feat in more focus regeneration.
Dim the Light seems so ridiculously bad and limited for a 1st level Focus power that it basically kills the Bloodline single-handedly. Is Shadow just blue because of it's interaction with the Shadowdancer? Because that's really nothing any other Bloodline can't do nearly as well.
|
I've updated both of these for the Advanced Players Guide
Gortle’s Spell Guide for the Sorcerer
Cheers
I think you've overlooked Bon Mot from your skill feats section!
I think you've overlooked Bon Mot from your skill feats section!I've updated both of these for the Advanced Players Guide
Gortle’s Spell Guide for the Sorcerer
Cheers
Sorry it made it into my Barbarian Guide...fixed.
Very very useful. All the single action skill check to do something offensive, Battle Prayer, Evangelize, Scare to Death .. amazing.
Thanks for the Update!
May I ask why you rated te Shadow Bloodline blue? I mean, it does have the best Bloodline Spells among the Occult Bloodlines, but the first Bloodline Power is really really bad, especially at low levels.
You can't use it at all at levels 1 and 2 since there are no Darkness/Shadow spells at Occult level 1 (except the obscure and sub-par Penumbral Shroud from Gods and Magic). You can use it at levels 3 and 4 by casting Darkness but since that's 3 actions, you're stuck in the middle of the room without any opportunity to get into cover, making the use of Dim the Light more than questionable.
The only spells you can actually use Dim the Light with are:
- Chilling Darkness, not very strong in most campaigns.
- Eclipse Burst, very good spell except it's on all spell lists except occult. Can still be accessed via Crossblooded at least.
- Penumbral Shroud, which is just pretty bad?
- Shadow Blast, only good for hitting weaknesses and even then the "choose your save"-thing hurts its performance badly.
- Undermine Reality, an uncommon 8th level spell from an adcventure path. Most players probably won't get access to this - ever.
- And of course your other Bloodline powers, which turns it into a once-per-day trick unless you're at least level 12 and invest a feat in more focus regeneration.Dim the Light seems so ridiculously bad and limited for a 1st level Focus power that it basically kills the Bloodline single-handedly. Is Shadow just blue because of it's interaction with the Shadowdancer? Because that's really nothing any other Bloodline can't do nearly as well.
Dim the Light is ok but I don't rate it highly. It is a reaction on a caster so action wise it is cheap. But the bloodline power can be ignored, just instead use another focus spell.
Darkness works even if you don't get to move.
The bloodmagic effect is useful to what the bloodline is trying to do. Which is a bit of stealth with its magic. It is helpful to a Shadowdancer
But really. Its the bloodline spells. That is a much better set of spells that you will acutally use as compared to the other occult bloodlines. Hag is truely shocking. Aberrant is not much better. For sure the bloodline spells are only ~25% of your total spells, so you are not totally restricted but you will cast them and trigger your bloodline magic.
Dim the Light is ok but I don't rate it highly. It is a reaction on a caster so action wise it is cheap. But the bloodline power can be ignored, just instead use another focus spell.
Darkness works even if you don't get to move.
The bloodmagic effect is useful to what the bloodline is trying to do. Which is a bit of stealth with its magic. It is helpful to a Shadowdancer
But really. Its the bloodline spells. That is a much better set of spells that you will acutally use as compared to the other occult bloodlines. Hag is truely shocking. Aberrant is not much better. For sure the bloodline spells are only ~25% of your total spells, so you are not totally restricted but you will cast them and trigger your bloodline magic.
Not sure I agree with that but I see where you're coming from.
Thank you for taking the time to reply.
Not sure I agree with that but I see where you're coming from.Thank you for taking the time to reply.
I would enjoy a aberrant sorcerer with touch spells, and a shadow sorcerer exploiting darkness. Which in my opinion is so strong it is broken in a party with a couple of martials with greater darkvision.
I think the debuff sorceror is a bit harder to be successful with mechanically - and I wouldn't use the hag as a base for it anyway.So what would you do with an Occult Sorcerer?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would enjoy a aberrant sorcerer with touch spells
My biggest gripe there is that tentacular limbs isn't that much better than Reach Spell. Limbs does get larger range at high levels, but Reach works with any spell. You can probably get by without Reach and Save a feat, though.
a shadow sorcerer exploiting darkness. Which in my opinion is so strong it is broken in a party with a couple of martials with greater darkvision.
Many creatures have darkvision. So even in level 4 darkess, they're not blind, but only treat all targets as concealed, which is also achievable by various other means. Having the whole party invest in Greater Darkvision also seems like hard to sell, especially since there aren't that many ways to get it.
And as I said, nothing about using Darkness is specific for the Shadow Bloodline. It's on each and every spell list. Would be a bit more attractive as option if the Shadow Bloodline would actually grant Greater Darkvision - without the need for an archetype which doesn't really do mcuh for the sorcerer beyond the dedication.
I think the debuff sorceror is a bit harder to be successful with mechanically - and I wouldn't use the hag as a base for it anyway.
Hag has by far the best first level focus power of the three (and even that isn't saying much). But the spell list is indeed very weird and not very appealing, I agree.
So what would you do with an Occult Sorcerer?
That's kind of what I'm trying to find out. I like the Occult Spell list. A lot. And I'll probably play an Occult caster in an upcoming campaign, with the singular purpose to get as much out of the Tradition as possible. Basically mixing all the various spells into a flexible caster.
Witch and Bard have too few spells and would distract with Hexes/Compositions, so I thought Sorcerer is the way to go. Maybe even with Witch Multiclass to get even more spells. But with none of the Bloodlines really appealing to me, I'm a bit at a loss.
Anyway, I was just making sure I didn't miss anything obvious that makes the Shadow Bloodline skyrocket to a blue rating. Seem like it's not "as good as the elemental bloodline"-blue, but more of a "best choice among the mediocre occult bloodlines"-blue. Shame, really. Had a good time playing my Umbral Bloodline Gnome in PF1.
So what would you do with an Occult Sorcerer?That's kind of what I'm trying to find out. I like the Occult Spell list. A lot. And I'll probably play an Occult caster in an upcoming campaign, with the singular purpose to get as much out of the Tradition as possible. Basically mixing all the various spells into a flexible caster.
Witch and Bard have too few spells and would distract with Hexes/Compositions, so I thought Sorcerer is the way to go. Maybe even with Witch Multiclass to get even more spells. But with none of the Bloodlines really appealing to me, I'm a bit at a loss....
I did a quick count of the bestiary
862 total creatures
631 creature with dark vision of any kind
183 with greater darkvision
So as a rough estimate:
27% of creatures have are in real trouble against a Shadow Dancer
52% will suffer concealment miss chances - a bonus 20% defense.
21% are unaffected. Do something else.
It will depend on your campaign. Do the common races in your world have darkvision?
That is not bad for an option that costs you one feat. And maybe an ancestry feat for a few allies. Darkness is a good spell even without this.
Plus you get an all round better set of spells. 90% of the value of Aberation is covered by one level 1 metamagic feat. Its a pity there is not more support for metamagic under level 20. The only good thing about Hag is the 1 action bloodline power. There are skill feats to get those sorts of actions now.
Shadow is mechanically clearly the best. But you don't have to over focus on it. Just be a sorcerer and rock your spells.
Very helpful spell guide, even for my druid.
For Moon Frenzy (*), you ask "Are you using this on your minions?", but it isn't clear if it's a reminder to do so (implying a conditionally higher rating than (*)), or if doing so would still be a bad idea...or maybe that you should be using it (if at all) only when you have more than one minion to use it on.
At 5th level, it seems a pretty clear waste to use on a druid's single animal companion unless you're desperate for extra silver weapon attacks. Maybe I'm missing something.
I'll edit that.
The problem with the spell is it is a very minor effect.
If I'm casting it on martial allies then they probably already have better attacks in their base form.
If I'm casting it on other allies then they still have their poor attack numbers and hitpoints. They don't want to melee.
So why would you want this spell? Has you party just escaped out of prison and has no equipment? Do you want to look like monster and scare peasants? Seems Narrow
Maybe a bit of extra movement? Why not just use longstrider
By and large the reason that battle form spells are useful is for the movement value or to give a caster the ability to be OK in melee.
5 temporary hit points don't cut it. +10" to speed for a minute?!. No alternative to hit number for the casters
This doesn't do the job. Its just not worth a slot.
Out of curiosity, what's the reasoning for the 2* on Phantom Pain? At a glance, getting the full 2d4/level up front damage even on a save seems strong - the persistent+sickened on fail is a bonus. (Granted, Magic Missile outdamages it at some levels).
Yeah the damage scales well. Maybe I am being harsh. Probably because I'm not that keen on persistant damage.
Thanks
Out of curiosity, what's the reasoning for the 2* on Phantom Pain? At a glance, getting the full 2d4/level up front damage even on a save seems strong - the persistent+sickened on fail is a bonus. (Granted, Magic Missile outdamages it at some levels).
Yeah the damage scales well. Maybe I am being harsh. Probably because I'm not that keen on persistant damage. I like things to die now!
Thanks for pointing that out.But like Magic Missile if you took it as a signature spell you could usefully spend all your slots on it.
Love your guide, used it to make my sorcerer!
Have to disagree about a couple of spell ratings though,
You gave Lightning Storm and Ice Storm three stars. Ice storm is maybe a 2 star at best, lightning storm is barely one star,Ice Storm - lvl 4 spell, 5 foot burst, less damage than fireball, and you conceal the target. Very situational, at best,
Lightning Storm - lvl 5 spell that takes three actions! and does 4d12 to one target, you can sustain for another 4d12 next turn, but only in a 5 foot burst area that you can’t move.
That is so bad. A lvl 5 fireball does more damage in a giant burst. A lvl 5 lightning bolt does a lot more damage in a line. If you have sudden bolt, it does almost twice as much. The area is so small the target can step right out of it. I can’t see much use at all for this spell. A 3 action spell needs to wow me, this does the opposite,
I like Ice Storm because of the area denial without sustaining it, and I'm also a fan of Storm Druids ability to see through that concealment.
I see the problem with Lightning Storm. I read this as call lightning - that the bolt comes down anywhere within range. The area of the spell at 5" is tiny. On reflection I think this is errata candidate. I'm going to continue to play it as anywhere with range.
Otherwise its worse than Ice Storm.
Thanks
I like Ice Storm because of the area denial without sustaining it, and I'm also a fan of Storm Druids ability to see through that concealment.
I see the problem with Lightning Storm. I read this as call lightning - that the bolt comes down anywhere within range. The area of the spell at 5" is tiny. On reflection I think this is errata candidate. I'm going to continue to play it as anywhere with range.
Otherwise its worse than Ice Storm.Thanks
Yeah. If it's not in range, it's not worth taking. Being able to drop a lightning bolt in a small 10 foot area is so easy to avoid as not to be worth taking for such low damage.
|
|
Hi, Gortle. Not sure if you really pay attention to this anymore but here we go anyway!
Before I give some feedback on specific spells I'd like to note that I think you grade cones too generously in general. I find them hard to use without hitting melee allies. This changes once flying becomes more common but before then it's a pain.
I'm going to talk about arcane spells because it's where I have the most experience but I might comment later on the other lists.
1st level
Gust of Wind: Absolutely deserves its rating and probably also deserves a special callout for its bonus effectiveness against flying creatures.
Shattering Gem: I don't think that this deserves four stars. Maybe if you can pre-buff out of combat but otherwise touch range and the tiny bit of damage and damage mitigation aren't worth a spell known or spell slot. I can see it in a staff or wand for when that prebuff opportunity occurs.
True Strike: Is there an errata I'm not aware of that limits this to weapon attacks? If not, this should have 4 stars for its ability to interact with spell attack rolls. Increasing your chance of landing a crit with a cantrip can sometimes do more damage than a 1st level spell by itself and increasing your chance of landing disintegrate is great. At the very least, sorcerers should consider replacing a spell known with this when they get disintegrate or another good spell with a spell attack roll from their bloodline.
2nd level
Blood Vendetta: I prefer staying outside of 30' myself. Outside of confined spaces the action economy generally allows you to keep your distance. I'd rate this 3 stars with 4 stars possible if you have few melee allies.
Illusory Creature: I like the spell but I'd suggest that players speak to their GM about how to define "touches" as in "Any creature that touches the image...can attempt to disbelieve your illusion." In my game we rule that the illusory creature attacking doesn't count as touching because of how the rules of illusion suggest that it normally takes some kind of action to trigger the attempt to disbelieve.
Vomit Swarm: I think it's useful, especially for a sorcerer since they have the high charisma to make demoralize work well, to note that sickened and frightened are both status penalties. This is a much less useful spell depending on party.
3rd level
Agonizing Despair: I'd rate this at 3 stars for the fact that it's useful to have a decent source of non-elemental damage and because it applies frightened even on a successful save. It's still not for everyone and it doesn't compare favorably to fireball or lightning bolt against massed enemies but against single difficult foes it can be very useful with the way that bonuses and penalties make a bigger difference in this edition. It's at least as useful as gravity well.
Haste: I think that either your wording is confusing or you misunderstand how an additional action works. You don't need to use the extra action gained by haste as your first action of a turn, you just get it at the beginning of your turn in the same way that you gain three actions at the start of your turn normally.
4th level
Dimension Door: I'm not sure I understand your question. You mean if the swarm is sharing your space? I don't think it would change anything since you're probably not wearing or holding the swarm. If you're wearing a swarm you have mental health issues that should be addressed before worrying about dimension door. =)
7th level
Time Beacon: One of us is misreading the spell. By my reading the spell lasts until the end of your turn which is also when you choose to rewind time. I think you only get to rewind once.
8th level
All in One, One is All: Potentially a useful spell depending on if you can count summoned creatures or an enemy you've dominated as willing allies.
Undermine Reality: Nothing wrong with your rating I just want to say how much I hate incapacitation. This would be an awesome spell without it. With it I think the kinds of targets that you'd hit with an 8th level spell are likely to succeed or critically succeed far to often.
9th level
Implosion: If you could target the same creature more than once it would be broken. Having to target a different enemy each round makes it, I think, not worth four stars. A fireball heightened to 9th level will do 63 damage on average and save you the sustain actions on subsequent turns. I guess it deserves special mention for being untyped damage so that's a point in its favor
---
Despite this whole essay, I really appreciate your sorcerer and spell guides. They're very well done, I think.
Thanks. One of the reasons I wrote the guide was to solicit other opionions to make sure I wasn't misreading things. So it is nice to get feedback. I do update my guide based on general forum feedback a fare bit.
Yes maybe I could do with a 5 star rating for some things but I've resisted so far.
I like Blood Vendetta simply because it is a reaction and it really helps in tight battles. Its more like a bonus in those rounds and situations where you really want to go as nova as possible because everything is on the line. Reactions are often unused resources for casters. But this is such an odd egg that it needed highlighting. No it is not an efficient use of spell slots per se.
Haste, yes maybe I am playing an extra restriction here, perhaps ready too much into the start of the turn and timing in general. I'll have to consult with my main gamin group and get back to you on that. Its an interpretation that was sourced off them.
Time Beacon: tha rational for my timing interpretation is that both the duration and the effect occur at the end of the turn. But the effect has to fire first, otherwise the whole spell does nothing. The activation of the effect resets the turn timing. So the spell either allows infinite retries or it doesn't work at all.
I'm with you on incapacitation. I'll get back to the other later when I get time
Cheers
Shattering Gem: my only thought for it was as a precombat buff. Not sure it would be worth while apart from that. But it is a buff that bascially stacks with every other buff.
True Strike: At lot more spells have been made attack rolls with the errata. So probably worth revisting and rating higher.
Remember I'm specifically thinking of sorcerers in this guide
Vomit Swarm. Not really understanding your comment green is good.
Agonzing Despair. It just seems too low for damage for a single target will save. Yeah it has some unique features.
Dimension Door what if a small spider from a swarm gets in your pocket. You are now carrying it however unwittingly. Does it count for stopping Dimension Door? Its a question.
All in One, One is Al. Dominated enemines are dead enemies anyway I not going to adjust my rating for that. It's useful.
Implosion: yeah I understand the limits. Still like it. Its a lot of damage for one sustain action.
Rounding back to the rules questions:
Haste: yes I think I have been playing it a little bit too tightly. The problem is I'm reading something into the start of turn wording in the quickened condition that is not really there. Thanks.
Time Beacon: the rational for my timing interpretation is that both the duration and the effect occur at the end of the turn. Page 469 of the CRB allows you to determine the order of steps at the end of your turn. So I can choose to let the duration expire which means the spell does nothing, or I can go back within my turn and not allow the spell to complete its expiration step.
I'm going to double down on my interpretation and say near infinite turns are possible. All you have to do is keep making the counteract check or not do things that would cause a counteract to be rolled.
Yes I think this is so strong it’s broken. But I can’t see a rules reason to disallow the interpretation.
Time Beacon: the rational for my timing interpretation is that both the duration and the effect occur at the end of the turn. Page 469 of the CRB allows you to determine the order of steps at the end of your turn. So I can choose to let the duration expire which means the spell does nothing, or I can go back within my turn and not allow the spell to complete its expiration step.I'm going to double down on my interpretation and say near infinite turns are possible. All you have to do is keep making the counteract check or not do things that would cause a counteract to be rolled.
Yes I think this is so strong it’s broken. But I can’t see a rules reason to disallow the interpretation.
I don't understand the reasoning. You're going back AFTER the casting of the spell, so you still lost the spell slot, didn't you ?
|
|
Shattering Gem: my only thought for it was as a precombat buff. Not sure it would be worth while apart from that. But it is a buff that bascially stacks with every other buff.
Unless this is your bloodline spell (and I'm not going to go check if any bloodlines get it), a sorcerer is only going to get a bare handful of 1st level spells in their repertoire. I think that means you need to be really choosey about what you mark blue since a sorcerer can only pick, what is it, three? Would you really take this over a summon or gust of wind?
True Strike: At lot more spells have been made attack rolls with the errata. So probably worth revisting and rating higher.
Remember I'm specifically thinking of sorcerers in this guide
I see that it has four stars now. I think that's the right move.
Vomit Swarm. Not really understanding your comment green is good.
I can see why you wouldn't; there was probably no way to know what I was talking about unless you were in my head.
Casters often end up with a single action left over. Demoralize is a decent use of that single action given the sorcerer's high charisma. The status penalty for sickened won't stack with the status penalty for frightened. Demoralize is also a pretty commonly used action by other classes because frightening an enemy is often better than a third attack except in certain builds dedicated to high attack bonus and lowered MAP. Basically, I'd rather use Rime Slick or Animated Assault which have the same star rating and use my third action for demoralize or true strike an acid arrow.
Agonzing Despair. It just seems too low for damage for a single target will save. Yeah it has some unique features.
I think it deserves three stars. I think it at least deserves a note that if you took fireball this level and didn't take sudden bolt at level 2 you might want a spell that doesn't do the damage type that is most resisted in the game.
Dimension Door what if a small spider from a swarm gets in your pocket. You are now carrying it however unwittingly. Does it count for stopping Dimension Door? Its a question.
It's not a creature at that point. The swarm is a creature but the individual components of it aren't. I mean they're "creatures" in the sense of the English language but not in the sense of the rules, I think.
All in One, One is Al. Dominated enemines are dead enemies anyway I not going to adjust my rating for that. It's useful.
Fair enough.
Implosion: yeah I understand the limits. Still like it. Its a lot of damage for one sustain action.
But it's not just the sustain it's also one of four level 9 spells you can cast and three you can choose to know. I looked randomly for a high level creature that you might reasonably expect to fight multiples of at level 17+ and looked in "Z" and there's the Zaaramun, a Creature 16. It has 291 hit points so hitting each one with this will take off a bit over a quarter of their hit points but only one at a time. And the value decreases if one of them gets killed before you get around to imploding him. Why wouldn't you cast weird and do 56 average damage, frighten them and possibly send them fleeing or outright kill them?
Time Beacon: the rational for my timing interpretation is that both the duration and the effect occur at the end of the turn. Page 469 of the CRB allows you to determine the order of steps at the end of your turn. So I can choose to let the duration expire which means the spell does nothing, or I can go back within my turn and not allow the spell to complete its expiration step.
I'm going to double down on my interpretation and say near infinite turns are possible. All you have to do is keep making the counteract check or not do things that would cause a counteract to be rolled.
I don't think it's intended but I did some more reading and I think you're right.
In the "Turns" section of the rules it says, as you correctly note, that you can do the list of things that happen at the end of your turn in any order you choose. So you can choose "Resolve anything else" before you choose "End any effects."
Once you can cast 8th level spells you could Time Beacon, quickened casting, Disintegrate and then basically tell your GM that you're going to rewind until your target gets a critical failure either by rolling it or by you rolling a critical success and they roll a normal failure. They can either wait for it to happen or admit that it will happen eventually and save some time and let you roll damage. That's 132 untyped damage on average. That's less than you would get by casting Eclipse Burst and Disintegrate and getting failed saves but it's guaranteed, 100% untyped, and may also trigger special effects that occur on a crit (Dread Marshal Aura for example).
Bananas.
I don't understand the reasoning. You're going back AFTER the casting of the spell, so you still lost the spell slot, didn't you ?
Time Beacon: the rational for my timing interpretation is that both the duration and the effect occur at the end of the turn. Page 469 of the CRB allows you to determine the order of steps at the end of your turn. So I can choose to let the duration expire which means the spell does nothing, or I can go back within my turn and not allow the spell to complete its expiration step.I'm going to double down on my interpretation and say near infinite turns are possible. All you have to do is keep making the counteract check or not do things that would cause a counteract to be rolled.
Yes I think this is so strong it’s broken. But I can’t see a rules reason to disallow the interpretation.
Yes the spell slot and the casting of time beacon happens exactly once. The effect of time beacon is to return to the instant of time just after you have cast it. But that still gives you 2 actions to do anything you want. As long as you don't suffer any negative effect you can at the end of your turn, before the spell expires, undo everything and return to just after the time of casting.
So you can return as often as you want until you get the result that you want. Like for example a critical hit on an enemy, or a critical failure of an enemy, or even a group of enemies if you are really persistent. So your Disintegrate or Baleful Polymorph is going to get maximum effect. Yeah that is broken. Its just a matter of working out the best spell you have for the situation and if you have to worry about Incapacitation.
Just got done reading the main Sorcerer guide (not yet the spell guide) -- nice!
But why do you say the ability boosts for Kobold are not good? +Dex and +Cha looks good to me -- it's the penalty (-Con) that hurts.
Suggestion: Put a Last Updated {Date} at the beginning of the guide.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Got through the Arcane spells in the spell guide.
Hydraulic Push: Not sure why this isn't rated higher. The damage is pretty good (and the knockback effect is nice), and scales well, and the spell starts at 1st level. The scaling part of the damage doesn't multiply on a Critical Success, but it's still pretty good.
Dimensional Anchor: If you are up against teleporting foes often, this would be pretty good for keeping them from getting away or tactically repositioning themselves, and it doesn't have Incapacitation, so I'd be inclined to rate it higher.
Ice Storm: I wouldn't rate this so high -- the area of effect is really small, too small to use even with Widen Spell even if you could somehow overcome the restriction against using that on spells having a duration, but even if you could use Widen Spell on it, the area still wouldn't be very big. Becomes better if you can block a corridor (or better yet a trench, since then you get 2 areas that you could make adjacent).
Weapon Storm: Watch for a 2nd Edition return of the 1st Edition Butchering Axe . . . Alternatively, I wonder if you can use it productively on an oversized weapon?
Hallucination: Note Incapacitation.
Prying Eye: The link goes to Mind Probe instead.
Collective Transposition: You can use this against enemies, potentially putting them in a bad spot. No Incapacitation, but if they Critically Succeed, they can use it to their advantage.
Flesh to Stone: Note partial Incapacitation.
Mislead: I wouldn't call it a way to teleport away, but it's still pretty good, since you can actually attack and otherwise cast hostile spells while under its effect without ending it.
Dimensional Lock: Pretty good if you are up against a lot of teleporting foes or foes that summon stuff, so I'd be inclined to rate it higher. Just make sure you have already gotten anything you want out of your Bag of Holding (or equivalent) before you cast this.
Eclipse Burst: You wouldn't want to use it on groups of mostly Undead, but it still does a fair amount of damage to Undead (unless they have Cold Immunity) and could Blind them, so on a mixed group, go ahead.
Time Beacon: Not totally broken since effects that you fail to counteract put an end to it, but it should probably be of higher level. Like 9 or 10.
True Target: Even errata'd, it's just a 4-target True Strike. As a lower level spell it would be great, but at 7th level I wouldn't rate it quite so highly.
Antimagic Field: You can still cast higher level spells from within this, so it has some use even if you are not a martial, although this would be better on a Spell Blending Wizard, who can get more high level spells, as well as on any caster who has the feat to get an extra 10th level spell slot. Gets better if you are a martial who multiclassed into a spellcasting class -- then you can cast it, and then go beat up on the enemy spellcaster. No Incapacitation trait, but if they are high enough level, enemies could try to get rid of it with a very heightened Dispel Magic.
Horrid Wilting: Doesn't specify an area, so I assume this affects any creatures you can target within the very long range?
Undermine Reality: So many people have been trying very hard at this on Earth that I'm afraid one of these days somebody is going to succeed.
Unrelenting Observation: You could also use this on your minions, but it's awfully high level for that.
Astral Labyrinth: The Heightened version is actually worse than the basic version if you try to use Collective Transposition offensively within it, because it protects the targets of Collective Transposition from Critical Failure of their Saves.
Implosion: Good but not super-good, because you can't target the same creature with one casting, and the damage against additional creatures is delayed.
Massacre: If this doesn't kill anything, it will hurt you too. Better if you are Undead or otherwise immune to Negative Energy damage.
Resplendent Mansion: This seems worse than Magnificent Mansion in most circumstances, since it is fully visible and accessible.
Weird: Doesn't specify an area, so I assume this affects any creatures you can target within the long range?
Indestructability: Invulnerable to almost everything until the end of your turn, but takes 2 actions to cast (and you're never going to be able to use Quickened Casting with it).
Suggestion: Put a Last Updated {Date} at the beginning of this guide too.
I update all my documents regularily often weekly. I don't see the need for a last updated date, or want to got to that effort. I'm also not writing in any particular order except that what suits me. So despite that I did an update this week doesn't mean I'm up with all the latest releases from Paizo.
This week I have added a new section called Spell DC in the sorceror guide. Mostly its comments on what you can do reduce the chances of your enemies making their saving throws. Its not complex but gamers experienced in other systems can miss it.
I've updated a few of my comments thanks. I always find a few things in this sort of feedback.
Primarily where I differ in rating is that this is a sorceror guide, and I really hate having too many situational spells. There is no doubt Dimensional Lock and Collective Transportation are really important spells. Just not at the top of my list as a Sorceror with limited spells known. They are precisely the sort of spells that fit best in a spell boook.
I respectfully disagree, Time Beacon is broken. If there is a counteract roll involved then you are doing it wrong. You should be using minions or even allies with the Marshall feat To Battle! There is no counteract roll to rewind time when something bad happens to them. Or you can just be boring and use your death spell of choice on your opponent.
Got through the Divine spells in the spell guide (including some spells that are also Arcane that I thought up something new about).
Guidance: Not sure if I would want to rate this Blue, since it is just 1 roll per hour for each comrade. Might get better if someone in the party summons minions that actually have a chance to do something important with a d20 roll.
Protection: Wow, this really got NerfSledgeHammered going from 1st Edition to 2nd Edition.
Spirit Link: Makes Fast Healing and Regeneration not work, and it bypasses Temporary Hit Points. Booo! On the other hand, it doesn't suppress things like Lay On Hands and healing spells that don't confer Fast Healing or Regeneration.
Reapear's Lantern: Tiny area, even when you expand it by expending an action. Since the initial area is too small for Widen Spell to work, I don't think you could use Widen Spell to expand the area further when you use an action to expand it.
Restore Senses: Unfortunately doesn't say anything about senses other than vision or hearing, such as scent (which might come up sometimes if somebody in your party has an Animal Companion, Familiar, or a bestial build for themselves) or tremorsense.
Shield Other: Unlike Spirit Link, this doesn't suppress Fast Healing or Regeneration, and it doesn't bypass Temporary Hit Points, so if you have the right options for these, you could get some good use out of it.
Circle of Protection: Wow, this really got NerfSledgeHammered going from 1st Edition to 2nd Edition.
Remove Disease: As with Neutralize Poison, you will need this eventually.
Zone of Truth: Could be useful to debuff enemies that like to Feint a lot (and note NO Incapacitation, and debuffs even on a Save Success), although inability to move the zone hurts, as does the effect on your own Feint-users, if you have any.
Ghostly Tragedy: This could kill you unless you are Undead or something similar.
Holy Cascade: "Low damage except against fiends or undead" -- on the other hand, it's pretty good against them.
Outcast's Curse: Could be used (preferably with Reach Spell) to debuff a Feint-using opponent or a Bard (and note NO Incapacitation, and works for a while even on a Save Success); unlike Zone of Truth, it's single target, but on the other hand, it's a bigger debuff to Feint, and they can't run away from it.
Remove Curse: If you have your own Feint-user or Bard, and you are in a campaign against a lot of Curse-users, you might even want this in your repertoire. Unfortunately, takes 10 minutes to cast, so it might be better instead to invest a bit in counterspelling Curses.
Spiritual Anamnesis: Hey, I learned a new word.
Talking Corpse: The way I read this, if you're going to shoot first and ask questions later, make sure to debuff the target as much as practical before you kill them.
Vital Beacon: Could be good if you're going to use Shield Other and you don't think your Temporary Hit Points are going to hold out, but unfortunately takes 1 minute to cast, so you have to guess beforehand. Fortunately, it has a LONG shelf life. Also, I don't see any reason you couldn't use it as part of the same action for some other type of healing (good in case you take a really big hit).
Summon Celestial: Some levels don't have a Celestial that makes full use of the maximum level. Maybe this will get better with future content.
Wall of Flesh: Unfortunately doesn't have a way to make it tougher (or increase the weak damage that Wall of Mouths does) by Heightening it.
Revival: Think of it as a moderately stronger 3 action Heal that actually only takes 2 actions and doesn't affect Undead. Although it only temporarily revives dead allies, it does get them back in the fight for a minute, which , and the text doesn't say that you can't use a normal Raise Dead or Ritual of Resurrection on them after they die again (after their short time back in the fight has helped you win the fight).
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
An interesting thing I have noticed about the divine sorcerer in particular, is that they can make an absolutely brutal and nasty counterspeller, especially against clerics. Countering a two or three action high level heal, with a single heal spell one level lower, as a reaction is an incredibly efficient way to shut down enemy healers, or harm spamming monsters as well. Sure primal sorcerers can shut down the heal, but only the divine caster has the ability to absolutely wreck the undead harm spammer.
It might be a little campaign specific, but it would be brutal in a campaign like carrion crown. It also makes for a really fun NPC villain that is shutting down party heals left and right.
Got through the Occult spells in the spell guide (including some spells that are also Arcane or Divine that I thought up something else for).
Mindlink: "Why would you use this?" Bandwidth. Imagine being able to compress a 3 minute zombie imitation lesson into 4 seconds . . . .
Create Food/Create Food: Doesn't actually seem to be on the Occult list.
Final Sacrifice and Illusory Creature: I wonder if you can use the first of these on the product of the second?
Paranoia: Heightened: Why should you have to do all the dirty work? Let the enemies do it for you. Especially if you combine it with Confusion (preferably Heightened, but a lucky roll with a single Confused target might be enough to set the whole group off against each other, and NO Incapacitation on either one).
Hypnotic Pattern: Looks like the Fascinated condition got seriously nerfed relative to 1st Edition, and the spell didn't get updated properly to compensate.
Invisibility Sphere: Nerfed moderately hard: Lost the text from Pathfinder 1st Edition that says "Affected creatures (other than the recipient) who attack negate the invisibility only for themselves."
Modify Memory: Its little cousin Memory Lapse (of 1st Edition) seems to have disappeared entirely.
Resilient Sphere (multiple traditions): I think you meant "lock one creature away".
Rope Trick: This keeps getting nerfed. In 1st Edition AD&D through 3rd Edition D&D you could pull the rope up after you as long as you left one of the extradimensional space units empty. In Pathfinder 1st Edition you couldn't do that any more. Now the spell level got bumped up from 2nd level to 4th level, and if the rope is removed or destroyed, the whole spell unravels.
Dreaming Potential: The flexibility for your party is good -- if you can somehow manage to spellbook this, go for it.
Illusionary Creature lacks the explict minion trait. Which honestly is annoying - it should have it. But it probably stops its use for final sacrifice.
Fascinated condition sucks badly. For which I'm quite annoyed as I was one of many that gave that feedback very loudly in the playtest but nothing happened. Pretty much every power that gives that condition is a total loss in a combat situation. Still fine in social encounters.
Rope Trick still works. But you need to go to an effort to conceal the rope. Honestly I prefer that as its not fool proof and the players have to think.
Its still a lot better value than all its higher level options.
A lot of the spells I rate badly work really well from a spell book..... it is a side effect of this being a Sorcerers Guide.
A lot of the spells I rate badly work really well from a spell book..... it is a side effect of this being a Sorcerers Guide.
An interesting example of this that makes the sorcerer a much harder illusionist/deceiver character than players might realize is nondetection. There really is no good way for a sorcerer to have this spell on their list except by multiclassing into something that gives it to you heightened to your highest level spell (like magic warrior). This leaves all your disguise spells, your invisibility, your general deception magic incredibly vulnerable to divination magic like true sight.
A newer player with a 1st level character is going to have no idea how far behind a wizard they will fall with deception magic, especially as they might believe the wizard has an inherent disadvantage not getting to start with an 18 charisma/have charisma compete with INT for the skill side of it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah I have an objection to Conceal Spell on several grounds
1) They have chosen to give it to the Witch and the Wizard but not the Sorceror. Why? Because its meta magic? Doesnt make much sense. BTW it should be available in class to certain clerics too.
2) It exists at all. At some point almost every caster will want to make an attempt to conceal a spell at which case you need some default rules. The ones in Conceal spell are the sort of things you would go to as a default. It would be nice for Conceal Spell to provide an actual bonus over the default, or for the default to exist.
3) It requires 2 checks to succeed. Activities that require two checks are setting themselves up for failure. Ask the GM for cover bonuses as you should not be directlty in front of the enemy. Lets not forget there are perception checks to come as well. At least illusions start with being believed
4) In a lot of combat circumstances it is not really required. Someone casting a spell in combat with little obvious effect is not especially suspicious. Only a portion of enemy wizards will ask for an Arcana check to identify it.
I think house ruling conceal spell into an activity that any caster can do, and then letting the feat give a significant bonus to all skill checks to disguise spells is a fine option for home games in homebrew worlds.
The developers though have gone to increasingly more restricting lengths ( even over the course of PF1) to make it clear that spell casting on Golarion is not casters mumbling under their breath and wiggling their nose to make magic happen. It has obvious manifestations and requires drawing attention to yourself. Being able to challenge that narrative requires enough dedication that the vast majority of spell casters in Golarion can’t do it. So it is not generally a thing that most nations and people have to worry about on a daily basis. Otherwise first level illusions would be incredibly prevalent and annoying across the world.
I kinda like that sorcerers magic is so innate that the very idea of concealing your casting feels like an anathema to sorcerers generally, so to do so requires even more character dedication. I also think GMs and players undervalue things like recognize spell because GMs basically make it clear what spell was cast to PCs but NPCs are expected to have no idea.
Yeah I have an objection to Conceal Spell on several grounds
1) They have chosen to give it to the Witch and the Wizard but not the Sorceror. Why? Because its meta magic? Doesnt make much sense. BTW it should be available in class to certain clerics too.
{. . .}
Yeah, they really restricted the availability of Metamagic in Pathfinder 2nd Edition, compared to 1st Edition, with much of it being restricted to the Wizard. Unless I missed something, now only Reach Spell, Widen Spell, and Quickened Casting are available to all of the casters.
Just noticed in the Sorcerer guide: You could use multiclassing into Witch to get any of the 4 spell lists, not just Arcane.
Multiclassing in general: I wonder if it would be worthwhile to just multiclass to another spellcasting class to pick up the class-restricted feats you want, and skip out on the spellcasting feats of that class in favor of more feats from your primary spellcasting class? Or is the extra spellcasting capacity always too good to pass up?
Got through the Primal spells in the spell guide (including some from other Traditions that I thought up something else for).
Shillelagh: No Heighten options? Booo!
Tether: Use of this presumes that you have somebody in your party that can deal properly with whatever you've tethered (such as an escaping criminal -- this should be an excellent spell for Agents of Edgewatch). Technical question: If you cast it with Reach Spell, does that also increase the range that you can play the tether out before the spell ends?
Animal Messenger: This could get a LOT better if you regularly combine it with Animal Vision. Hello, Pathfinder 2nd Edition's answer to WarCraft III/TFT's Mechanical Critter!
Animal Form: Snake: It doesn't say what the poison does other than 1d6 immediate damage. Is that it? Or am I supposed to look in some other place to find this? Sounds like so much for milking yourself for poison that will stay relevant at higher levels. At least Insect Form: Spider says Persistent Poison. Also a bit disappointing in variety of forms you can choose -- no Boar/Pig initially, and no Rhino or Elephant at higher levels?
Dismantle: Heightened forms of this could be useful for some types of smuggling operations. Spellbook it?
Expeditious Excavation: I guess we have to make do with this instead of Create Pit.
Fungal Hyphae: You can't move without kicking off the spell.
Heat Metal: Looks like Burning Disarm got merged with this. Makes sense.
Quench: Also good for counterspelling a variety of Fire spells -- if you're into that sort of thing, you might even want to have it in your Repertoire instead of spellbooking it. If you're into firefighting, Widen Spell makes it cover approximately 50% more area, and as far as I can tell, you should still be able to move it.
Shatter: I wonder if this works on components of structures, or things like doors? Might be useful if you don't want to be too close to whatever breaks, like for instance, if it is a critical support pillar, or a bridge that a bunch of angry monsters are chasing you over and that you just got off, or a door that has a bunch of angry monsters between you and it and you know has a bunch of even angrier monsters behind it.
Shrink: Game effect: You could cast this on yourself while holding an anvil, sneak through an air vent, drop the anvil on enemies' heads, and sneak back out before the spell ends. Unfortunately seems to have no way to extend it -- make sure you aren't still in a cramped space when it ends.
Earthbind: The duration is so short (unless the target has a Critical Failure) that you can't use it for bringing opponents down to melee (unless you combine with something like Black Tentacles, which will also hamper your own party's melee types). In an aerial battle, it could take an opponent out of the fight, but not for very long.
Mad Monkeys: Not only did this become available on vastly fewer spell lists compared to Pathfinder 1st Edition, but it took a big hit in power, even if the duration is longer at low-mid levels.
Meld Into Stone: I wonder if you have to exit the same side of the stone that you went in? Technically, it doesn't say anything about this. Budget Passwall?
Threefold Aspect: I guess you really have to be into disguising yourself for this to be useful. But it doesn't help at all with appearing to be somebody else, just with the different age part of your disguise. Also, for some strange reason it doesn't help if you need to disguise yourself as a male.
Air Walk and Fly: These give you the same speed in the air (and for the same duration), unless you're really slow, in which case Fly has a floor but Air Walk doesn't. And then once you can Heighten Fly to 7th level, the duration goes up to an hour -- that's awfully steep, but Air Walk doesn't even have that option.
Creation: I wonder if Thieves' Tools count as being too complex for this? They would be awfully fragile for having to be made out of vegetable matter (although ebony is pretty tough while being wood), but they might last long enough for you to be able to get out of jail.
Dinosaur Form: Be a Barbarian or Fighter, multiclass into Druid or Primal Sorcerer (and actually invest in the spellcasting), learn Whirlwind Strike, and then use the 7th level version of this.
Hydraulic Torrent: A Hydraulic Push heightened to the same level is a bit better against a single target, but if you don't need the lower level versions of it and mainly want to hit multiple enemies in lines, you could reasonably swap it out when you get Hydraulic Torrent. Although oddly, Hydraulic Push goes against the target's Armor Class, while Hydraulic Torrent goes against their Fortitude Save -- this might make a difference in a few corner cases.
Rusting Grasp: Arguably a bit stronger than in Pathfinder 1st Edition, but still not as strong as an actual Rust Monster.
Moon Frenzy: The more you Heighten it, the worse the Weakness to silver grows. Pas gas on this one.
Plant Form: As with Dinosaur Form.
Blanket of Stars: Be careful -- this could hose your own allies under a starry night sky, since they can't see you either if you're still, and the spell doesn't discriminate in their favor if they end up next to you (including if they get forced there).
Unfettered Pack: Would be not bad if only it weren't so high level.
Volcanic Eruption: Seems to be Pathfinder 2nd Edition's answer to WarCraft III/TFT's Volcano, and almost as useless. Only almost, because it also works on flying creatures.
Wind Walk: This got NerfSledgeHammered going from 1st Edition Pathfinder to 2nd Edition Pathfinder, and restricted to much fewer spell lists.
Revival (Divine, Primal): I looked further into the math on this -- this heals 10d8 + 40, so that's average +85 hit points to everyone who doesn't have Negative Energy Affinity (or whatever they call that now in PF2), for 2 actions. For comparison, a level 10 Heal 3 action version gives average +45 hit points to everyone who doesn't have Negative Energy Affinity. So Revival is a LOT stronger heal than a 3 action Heal, not just moderately stronger like I posted above -- I would definitely mark the rating of Revival up to at least Green and probably Blue. Only downside is you can't damage Undead at the same time. If nobody in your party died, just bag the Sustain and let it be done with the 2 action cast. This spell should help prevent somebody from dying, although if 1 party member is taking most of the damage, a high level Heal 2 action version will be stronger for them (level 10 = 10d8 + 80, average 125 hit points; level 9 = 9d8 + 72, average +112.5 hit points; level 8 = 8d8 + 64, average +100 hit points). Or if you have BOTH problems (whole party is getting raggedy, but 1 member is at death's door), and you actually invested in the normally bad Quickened Casting, you can do both a Quickened Casting of a level 8 Heal 2 action version AND Revival, gets you average +185 hit points for that party member and +85 hit points for everybody else, all in 1 round. Wonder if Pathfinder 2nd Edition has any way to prepare a temporary feat like Pathfinder 1st Edition does (Paragon Surge)?
Next: Off to take a 2nd pass through your Barbarian guide, now that it has had a whole bunch of stuff added since the last time I looked at it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just noticed in the Sorcerer guide: You could use multiclassing into Witch to get any of the 4 spell lists, not just Arcane.
OK fixed that up. I haven't really had a good look at the witch. Nothing really grabs me as worth multiclassing to pick up, so far.
Multiclassing in general: I wonder if it would be worthwhile to just multiclass to another spellcasting class to pick up the class-restricted feats you want, and skip out on the spellcasting feats of that class in favor of more feats from your primary spellcasting class? Or is the extra spellcasting capacity always too good to pass up?
In my opinion you are better off picking up a multiclass for an initial couple of cantrips. Get the feats that you want. The extra slots are good. But you can pick up plenty of effective slots with scrolls, wands and staves. So you don't have to get extra slots. Some exist with in-class feats anyway.
Shatter: I wonder if this works on components of structures, or things like doors? Might be useful if you don't want to be too close to whatever breaks, like for instance, if it is a critical support pillar,...
No doubt. But there are plenty of other damage options which doesn't have the object limitation.
this heals 10d8 + 40
Ok its a really good healing spell which I should note. I just want a bit more from a level 10 spell. Heal does a very good job. More is nice but is it necessary?
Well, given your approval of casterclass dabbling without investing in all the extra spell feats, here's my thoughts of what you could get out of dabbling in Witch:
(Feats other than class feats left out for now)
1. {Your choice of 1st level Sorcerer feat}
2. Witch Dedication (choose same spellcasting tradition as your primary spellcasting so that you can pick up some other skill) -- you get a slightly nerfed Familiar (compare to Wizard Dedication, which would get you a spellbook, but with Arcane Evolution you could get that without Multiclassing)
4. Basic Witchcraft (Cackle) -- for the price of a Focus Point (and some risk of suffering the fate of Sir Robin's Minstrels), you get free action Sustain of a spell (looks like even though Cackle got nerfed by needing to spend a Focus Point, it also got buffed by now working on any Sustained spell you cast, not just Hexes)
6. Advanced Witchcraft (Conceal Spell) -- you now have Conceal Spell that you couldn't have gotten without dabbling in Witch or Wizard, and your Familiar is no longer nerfed -- so far doing pretty good, because we've spent 2 feats but gotten back 2 feats (one of them not available with pure Sorcerer) and an extra skill
8+. Mix Sorcerer Feats and more Advanced Witchcraft as you see fit, but include at least 1 more Witch Hexes and/or Sorcerer Focus Spells to max out the size of your Focus Pool (caution: Hexes from Lessons also come with an actual spell, so make sure tha actual spell is on your spell list so that it doesn't just stay stuck in your Familiar without you being able to cast it, unless you're actually going to invest in Witch spellcasting)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I find Cackle interesting. But I see it as useful for particular spells and not others. Obviously in the right circustances its a free action. If you want to get a couple of 3 action spells out that you need to sustain then it is really good.
I'd probably just go with the Witch Dedication, and Basic Witchcraft-Conceal Spell I updated my Gnome illusionist build to do this.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know. Some were from Natural Ambition. But thanks I've fixed the rest up.
Which guide do you plan to do next?
(My next intended move is to go check out your Druid guide.)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Other people should write a few more guides. I'm just doing this for fun.
I want to do a Summoners guide but I'm waiting to see if I like it. The playtest summoner was not suitable in my opinion.
I am part way through doing a Power Gamers guide but I haven't announced it yet as I'm still thinking it over and its a bit scattered.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is one of my favorite guides. Thank you for creating it!
I believe the sorcerer class feat for Bespell Weapon should actually be level 4. It is listed as a level 4 feat on 2e.aonprd.com and per the errata on Paizo's FAQ: "Page 199: In the Sorcerer Feats sidebar, change the level of “Bespell Weapon” from 6 to 4 to match the feat itself."
I decided to join the forums to thank you for this guide. I didn't always agree, but it was all interesting and enlightening, and I've particularly enjoyed the spell guide.
You are welcome. Always happy to take feedback.
Life wouldn't be fun if we all played the same.