Gods & Magic discussion thread!

[keftiu]

Needed a place for my thoughts, figured others will have em too. In no particular order:

-Art has some problems in a few places, but is generally solid. I’m in love with Noctiula and Kazutal.
-It’s really nice to see Casandalee here.
-All the minor deities are super appreciated, especially anything that gets us away from Avistan.
-I want an entire book on the Sarkorians, doubly so if some Native American authors could contribute (as I believe they’re a partial inspiration? Sarkorian gods are so, so cool.
-Set is missing from the Osiriani deity list. Also, while I loathe Osirian, it is nice to see goddesses I pray to in a goofy game book.

And most importantly:

-What the heck is this glowing, snake-dragon person in the spells section? I’d kill to play as one.

[Luis Loza]

That's totally a serpentfolk that's a follower of Ydersius.

[Xenocrat]

Mechanical options that stood out:

1. Blessed Blood, Sorcerer feat 7, works well with worshiping one of the "super magic" gods so that you can select three of their off list spells to add to the divine spell list as your advance your character.

2. Evangelize, skill feat 7, is very nice as a diplomacy skill based debuff to compete with intimidate for spell casters. (You get stupefied instead of frightened).

3. Syncretism, Cleric feat 1, is going to be very popular indeed, I think, for cloistered clerics. Allows you to worship two gods. You get both sets of anethma and edicts, and depending on cloistered or warpriest you get either a domain from the second god or also its favored weapon.

4. Evocation spells - surprised to see that the elemental god spell lists demanded that the druid and wizard benefit with some new options.

5. Time Beacon, spell 7 arcane/occult is a very nice option at high level to take a high risk/high reward shot with a save or lose spell and fish for a crit fail. 1 action Time Beacon, 2 action cast offensive spell, if they don't get the save result you want you can rewind and either cast a different spell or cast the same spell (and slot) again.

6. Eject Soul, Focus 1 of soul domain: This might actually be a great short range scouting spell when cast on an ally, although the line of effect requirement is a pain. Fly invisibly straight up when outside to get a quick look around?

[CorvusMask]

Luis Loza wrote:

That's totally a serpentfolk that's a follower of Ydersius.

Kinda weird how Ydersius isn't in the book nor is there serpentfolk in advanced race guide...*looks at the conspiracy board*

[Wei Ji the Learner]

How do you know that the Iruxi aren't them?

[PossibleCabbage]

Can I play a Champion who practices Rivethun, Sangpotshi, worships her ancestors, follows the Green Faith, etc. yet?

[CorvusMask]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Can I play a Champion who practices Rivethun, Sangpotshi, worships her ancestors, follows the Green Faith, etc. yet?

They'd still need to have a deity, but nothing prevents cleric having a deity and following a philosophy so not sure why champion couldn't do the same

[HeHateMe]

I think it's poorly done that in a book titled "Gods and Magic" there are only THREE Divine spells. That's it. Also, there aren't any decent feats for Cloistered Clerics.

On the bright side, the extra gods were a welcome addition.

[Rysky]

Spells aren't the only magical thing in there.

[Rysky]

I love the page setup for the art of Shizuru and Tsukiyo, both longingly looking at each with Shizuru having her arms open and Tsukiyo trying to make his way to her but alas, they are still kept apart.

[Xenocrat]

HeHateMe wrote:

I think it's poorly done that in a book titled "Gods and Magic" there are only THREE Divine spells. That's it. Also, there aren't any decent feats for Cloistered Clerics.

On the bright side, the extra gods were a welcome addition.

Uh, syncretism is quite nice for a CC. And many of the spells are there to support deity specific spells.

[Vlorax]

Xenocrat wrote:

Mechanical options that stood out:

1. Blessed Blood, Sorcerer feat 7, works well with worshiping one of the "super magic" gods so that you can select three of their off list spells to add to the divine spell list as your advance your character.

Blessed Blood is a level 1 feat.

[Vlorax]

HeHateMe wrote:

I think it's poorly done that in a book titled "Gods and Magic" there are only THREE Divine spells. That's it. Also, there aren't any decent feats for Cloistered Clerics.

On the bright side, the extra gods were a welcome addition.

Syncretism is good for CC and there are 30+ Divine Focus Spells.

[Xenocrat]

Cool, interesting, or hilarious anathemas:

Baphomet: Kill something that can't significantly harm you! Very unusual for a demon lord. Also one of only two in this book who allows CN clerics.

Kotschtchie: Defer to or obey a woman. Probably not going to make it into PFS.

Nurgal: Change you name. Not popular among artists and actors.

Shax: Sleep in a building with fewer than five rooms. Wut. Makes it easy for bounty hunters following your trail from town to town, I imagine.

Zevgavizeb: Eat cooked meat. Little did he expect the vegan clerics.

Ng: Wear seasonal decorations out of season. We all know that person, and we hate them.

Shyka: Willingly tread where time does not pass. Either this is almost never going to come up, it bars you from visiting the Boneyard and the Astral Plane (and any other planes with the timeless trait), or you're ok as long as you fly/swim only while you're there.

Ymeri: Allow yourself to stagnate or lose motivation. George RR Martin used to be a cleric of Ymeri, who he inserted as the Lord of Light, but then...

Irez: Deliberately write illegibly. Although they provide healing magic, clerics of Irez are never medical doctors.

Barzakh: Celebrate specific calendar dates over others. Who knew Neil DeGrasse Tyson was a cleric of Barzakh?

All the Great Old ones and Outer Gods: None

[CorvusMask]

Shax's has to do with his super mega huge mansion apparently. Apparently he disses anyone not living in mansion :p

[Xenocrat]

The Animus Mine spell inflicts damage on anyone who uses a "mental effect" against you unless you use an action to suppress it for one round. Forgetting for the moment friendly fire issues like Soothe and Inspire Courage, this also somehow works on creatures that try to feint or demoralize you. Don't yell at me or you'll get a magic headache!

With a duration of 1 hour and 2d8 damage per spell level (basic save plus some riders) this is an extremely effective way to lay out some defensive hurt.

Edit: These are the skill uses that trigger an Animus Mine as published: Create a Diversion, Lie(!), Feint, Make an Impression(!), Request(!), Coerce, Demoralize.

If your spouse is a Bard or Hag Sorcerer, don't lie to them about why you're coming home late or ask them to do the dishes.

This depends on whether skill use is an "ability" defined in the CRB as

Quote:

This is a general term referring to rules that provide an exception to the basic rules. An ability could come from a number of sources, so “an ability that gives you a bonus to damage rolls” could be a feat, a spell, and so on.

Is a skill use a basic rule? I'm inclined to think so, but I think you could disagree.

Edit: Never mind, the Effects paragraphs on CRB 453 cover this.

Effects, CRB 453 wrote:

Anything you do in the game has an effect. Many of these outcomes are easy to adjudicate during the game.

If you tell the GM that you draw your sword, no check is needed, and the result is that your character is now holding a sword. Other times, the specific effect requires more detailed rules governing how your choice is resolved. Many spells, magic items, and feats create specific effects, and your character will be subject to effects caused by monsters, hazards, the environment, and other characters.

While a check might determine the overall impact or strength of an effect, a check is not always part of creating an effect. Casting a fly spell on yourself creates an effect that allows you to soar through the air, but casting the spell does not require a check. Conversely, using the Intimidate skill to Demoralize a foe does require a check, and your result on that check determines the effect’s outcome.

Skill uses with the mental trait are "mental effects" for the purpose of Animus Mine. Always detect magic before engaging in social activity, kids.

[Perpdepog]

Nice. I wasn't sure where that spell would come in handy other than maybe against some psychic abominations. This makes it more useful and potentially hilarious if you know something is going to try to manipulate you.

Also, totally loving that they stretched to other lands for the extra twenty deities. That was an awesome move.

[Eleanor Ferron]

keftiu wrote:

-Set is missing from the Osiriani deity list. Also, while I loathe Osirian, it is nice to see goddesses I pray to in a goofy game book.

CorvusMask wrote:

Kinda weird how Ydersius isn't in the book nor is there serpentfolk in advanced race guide...*looks at the conspiracy board*

Those two were unfortunately cut at the very last minute. When the appendix in the back went over space in formatting, we had to start cutting gods, and I aimed for the ones least likely to be useful to players (or at least, ones easily replaced by any other god of doom, death, murder, and blood). Another one I was sad to cut was Areshkagal, who I consider our coolest-looking demon lord but who couldn't stand up to titans like Anghazan and Baphomet.

[Mark Seifter]

And at least Ydersius is used to being on the chopping block.

[Kasoh]

Eleanor Ferron wrote:

Another one I was sad to cut was Areshkagal, who I consider our coolest-looking demon lord but who couldn't stand up to titans like Anghazan and Baphomet.

I was a little surprised to see Baphomet at all, considering

AP Spoiler:

he can be killed by PCs in Wrath of the Righteous. Looks like he survived.

[Luis Loza]

Kasoh wrote:

Eleanor Ferron wrote:

Another one I was sad to cut was Areshkagal, who I consider our coolest-looking demon lord but who couldn't stand up to titans like Anghazan and Baphomet.

I was a little surprised to see Baphomet at all, considering ** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

James Jacobs and I took some time to discuss Baphomet's fate. He was close to not making it, but managed to slip away into a labyrinthine structure to live another day.

[PossibleCabbage]

I would have prefered neither of the demon lords who potentially got murked in WotR ever reared their ugly heads again, TBH.

But I guess it's easy enough to just leave them out of your game.

[Xenocrat]

I’m glad the most intelligent demon lord with one of the most interesting backstories and subtle approaches survived.

[James Jacobs]

In the end, Baphomet made sense because he's one of the demon lords we've featured a lot, and with Deskari dead and Nocticula no longer a demon, I felt that it was important to keep one of the ones we did a lot with in 1st edition front and center in 2nd edition—one of many ways we try to soothe the pains for some folks crossing from one edition of the game to the other, but also a good way for us to codify into the new edition what roles these characters have in a post-Wrath of the Righteous Setting.

But yeah, there's a LOT of demon lords and certainly not enough room for them all to fit on a single spread, so we had to pick and choose which ones we wanted to feature. And in this case, those who've played significant roles in world lore had the inertia needed to go forward.

That said, the other demon lords are all still out there, and having someone on staff at Paizo who likes you is a great way for a demon lord to eventually get more screen time in the setting! :-)

[CorvusMask]

To be fair, Wrath of the Righteous heavily assumes Babhomet survives and that only rare few parties will successfully kill him. Only reason he dies is that mythic pc rules weren't in balance, so it DOES make sense to assume he survives and if he dies, he isn't too hard to replace.

[NECR0G1ANT]

CorvusMask wrote:

Luis Loza wrote:

That's totally a serpentfolk that's a follower of Ydersius.

Kinda weird how Ydersius isn't in the book nor is there serpentfolk in advanced race guide...*looks at the conspiracy board*

I've read that there may not ever be a serpentfolk ancestry, since 1) some races work better as monsters and antagonists and 2) there are already so many ways to a PC can play a reptile person.

[Xenocrat]

Arazni's ranged attack from the Avatar spell is crazy good - the damage is roughly in line with most other gods, but hers is persistent bleed.

[Set]

Eleanor Ferron wrote:

keftiu wrote:

-Set is missing from the Osiriani deity list. Also, while I loathe Osirian, it is nice to see goddesses I pray to in a goofy game book.

Those two were unfortunately cut at the very last minute.

A likely story.

[CorvusMask]

There are never too many ways to play as a reptile person ;P

[Mark Seifter]

Set wrote:

Eleanor Ferron wrote:

keftiu wrote:

-Set is missing from the Osiriani deity list. Also, while I loathe Osirian, it is nice to see goddesses I pray to in a goofy game book.

Those two were unfortunately cut at the very last minute.

A likely story.

I blame the Second Intermediate Period.

[Quandary]

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

Luis Loza wrote:

That's totally a serpentfolk that's a follower of Ydersius.

Kinda weird how Ydersius isn't in the book nor is there serpentfolk in advanced race guide...*looks at the conspiracy board*

I've read that there may not ever be a serpentfolk ancestry, since 1) some races work better as monsters and antagonists and 2) there are already so many ways to a PC can play a reptile person.

I tend to agree here, with even the plurality of "serpentine" humanoids being overloaded, above and beyond "reptilian" in general. Serpentfolk in particular don't seem to have vibe conducive to PC play, and while full Class builds for BBEGs can be valid, it's not really necessary.

I'm not really clear on how Paizo has developed "Vishkanya" in setting at all, they feel a bit too intersecting as well. I kind of feel inclined to want them to BE Serpentfolk of the kind that altered themselves to infiltrate humanans, but a mutation that became self-reproducing while also not 100% passing as normal humans (which could be Ancestry Heritage, and normal purecast Serpentfolk aren't PC-legal?). Sort of like Gill-men of Serpentfolk in a way.

[Vali Nepjarson]

Quandary wrote:

Serpentfolk in particular don't seem to have vibe conducive to PC play. I'm not really clear on how Paizo has developed "Vishkanya" in setting at all, they feel a bit too intersecting as well.

That depends entirely on what preconceptions about snakes and serpentfolk the players bring to the table.

Personally I'm a pagan who uses snakes as symbols of the oldest primordial magic, neither good nor bad, and that seeps into my games a lot. As such my players have come to expect Serpentfolk in my games to be the oldest possible civilization, very druidy, and usually helpful but only if you are respectful.

When I see things like the Yaun-ti, Pathfinder Serpentfolk, Slytherins from Harry Potter, or any of the dozens of other ways snakes are associated with in fantasy settings, it always feels unnatural to me.

And as for the Vishkanya, I totally agree that they are weird in setting and heavily underdeveloped, but that is no reason they cannot be developed much more in PF2.

[James Jacobs]

Nagaji are the best "snake people" option in Pathifnder, and there's potentially some room to explore this with the vishkanya as well.

I really want to keep serpentfolk set aside as a monster, though.

[Quandary]

I wrote:

I'm not really clear on how Paizo has developed "Vishkanya" in setting at all, they feel a bit too intersecting as well. I kind of feel inclined to want them to BE Serpentfolk of the kind that altered themselves to infiltrate humanans, but a mutation that became self-reproducing while also not 100% passing as normal humans (which could be Ancestry Heritage, and normal purecast Serpentfolk aren't PC-legal?). Sort of like Gill-men of Serpentfolk in a way.

It might be interesting if Vishkanya were treated as specific (arcane engineered) Heritage for Humans, which sets them more apart from "just snake people" (already covered by Nagaji, albeit with specific Naga flavor). Serpentfolk might have seen the Vishkanya as abominations (?!half-humans!?), but have felt collective pity and guilt for accidentally creating them... Possibly treating them well but restricting them from reproducing? Leading some to exile in Casmaron and disassociation with Serpentfolk? That probably implies assumptive aversion between them and Serpentfolk, but leaves open possibility of new alliance/relationship? If going this route, question would be if Vishkanya should have telepathy to any degree (From Heritage? Ancestry Feat? What Level?), which is key element of "Serpentfolk-ness". As Heritage they seem simpler to manage or homebrew etc, but leaves room to selectively poach Ancestry/Creature Feats from Serpentfolk and viceversa.

[Brinebeast]

It looks like Shamira took control of the Midnight Isles and the succubi and similar demons after Nocticula left. Did Shamira also manage to keep the shadow demons in her portfolio? That seems like something Nightripper would be gunning for.

Also, what's happening in the Rasping Rifts now that Deskari is dead? Any potential Demon Lords or Nascent Demons looking to claim his realm? I could see Areshkagal making a grab for the Rasping Rifts and merging them with the Blood Clefts. Also, acquiring Deskari's locust demons and swarms would be in her interest.

[CorvusMask]

My only wish with Nagaji is that artists would remember that snakes don't have eyelids! :p Its like one of most coolest features of snakes that makes them separate from legless lizards... Which are a thing btw, check out Anguidae, never seen one in rpg though

[Rysky]

CorvusMask wrote:

My only wish with Nagaji is that artists would remember that snakes don't have eyelids! :p Its like one of most coolest features of snakes that makes them separate from legless lizards... Which are a thing btw, check out Anguidae, never seen one in rpg though

Huh, neat.

[Gisher]

CorvusMask wrote:

My only wish with Nagaji is that artists would remember that snakes don't have eyelids! :p Its like one of most coolest features of snakes that makes them separate from legless lizards... Which are a thing btw, check out Anguidae, never seen one in rpg though

My Lizardfolk Wizard has a legless lizard as a Familiar.

[Ascalaphus]

CorvusMask wrote:

My only wish with Nagaji is that artists would remember that snakes don't have eyelids! :p Its like one of most coolest features of snakes that makes them separate from legless lizards... Which are a thing btw, check out Anguidae, never seen one in rpg though

And that since they're not mammals, Nagaji women probably don't need breasts either..

[Rysky]

Ascalaphus wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

My only wish with Nagaji is that artists would remember that snakes don't have eyelids! :p Its like one of most coolest features of snakes that makes them separate from legless lizards... Which are a thing btw, check out Anguidae, never seen one in rpg though

And that since they're not mammals, Nagaji women probably don't need breasts either..

Aren’t they though? I thought they were transformed humans?

[primevalivy]

As a trans person, I just had to say how deeply touched I was by arshea’s write up.

[Michael Sayre]

keftiu wrote:

-I want an entire book on the Sarkorians, doubly so if some Native American authors could contribute (as I believe they’re a partial inspiration? Sarkorian gods are so, so cool.

I'm glad you liked that section! I really enjoyed writing it and working with Eleanor and Luis to talk about who the Sarkorians are today and finding their niche in the setting. I certainly see a bit of the PNW cultures in them, and being Tlingit myself I intentionally brought some of that into their lore and write-up. I've also been working with the regional corporations of Alaska and indigenous game dev groups to bring more Alaskan Native and indigenous writers into our pool of freelancers so we can keep expanding that voice and representation :)

[Charon Onozuka]

First impressions from a quick scan.

Raised by Belief background: I've always wanted an easy-access option that could make deity worship impactful for any class, and it doesn't get much easier than selecting a background.

Divine Intercessions (Blessings/Curses): Again, love potential to make deities influential to any class and more impactful in the setting as a whole. Will have lots of fun trying to come up with entries for these in my own homebrew pantheon.

Syncretism feat / Pantheon worship. LOVE. I've always hated how a pantheistic setting made it so that characters could only ever venerate a single deity at a time. These go a long way to making any polytheistic setting more believable to me & adding options to make fun characters in such a setting.

Deity access uncommon items: Love having unique options for worshippers and kinda hope that similar options can appear for feats and/or spells in the future.

Have to say I like how pretty Nocticula looks in her entry.

Sad to see no return for divine obediences in this book. Granted, the divine intercessions seems to have some similarities to the boons while not requiring feat access - but I always loved having some type of flavorful prayer act for each deity with a minor bonus granted for doing it daily.

Sad to see no return for divine fighting techniques. Loved how those gave martials some type of mechanical benefit for deity worship.

[Set]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Set wrote:

Eleanor Ferron wrote:

keftiu wrote:

-Set is missing from the Osiriani deity list. Also, while I loathe Osirian, it is nice to see goddesses I pray to in a goofy game book.

Those two were unfortunately cut at the very last minute.

A likely story.

I blame the Second Intermediate Period.

Set has a reputation. It was probably to be expected that he'd get cut, because he's usually the one doing the cutting...

[CorvusMask]

Charon Onozuka wrote:

pantheistic setting made it so that characters could only ever venerate a single deity at a time.

Polytheistic! ;-; My inner hobby armchair theologist is crying

(well I'm more into philosophy and biology, but theology is really interesting to me as well :p)

[PossibleCabbage]

But man, when we get mechanical chassis for playing a pantheistic divine caster I'm gonna be so excited.

[CorvusMask]

Yeah, having an actual pantheistic character option would be interesting :D

Just for everyone who doesn't want to google, pantheism is either that everything = divine or that EVERYTHING is part of all encompassing god. There are no distinct personal gods as everything is part of the divine.

So to a pantheist from Golarion, they wouldn't see any difference between the world, the ancestries and gods because they are all part of the same divinity.

[Xenocrat]

The Monad is sort of a paradoxical singular representation of the pantheistic ideal.

[Old_Man_Robot]

Do we know if Mortal Healing is intended to work with Battle Medicine? Given the feat chain requirement of Battle Medicine > Godless Healing > Mortal Healing, it feels like it’s intended to work together, but the wording makes me doubtful.

[Unicore]

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Do we know if Mortal Healing is intended to work with Battle Medicine? Given the feat chain requirement of Battle Medicine > Godless Healing > Mortal Healing, it feels like it’s intended to work together, but the wording makes me doubtful.

There was a PFS blog post that explicitly said these two do not work together, because mortal healing only works on the treat wounds action.