In that case the rogue would roll stealth for initiative. Anyone beating him would get a feeling of something being off they might not be able to do anything about with causing further problems though.
Okay, so do they do anything about it? Or do they just pass the turn. That is the important bit.
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Okay. So how do you resolve a Surprise attack from a creature that is Undetected?
Let's say the party enters negotiations with the Big Bad. The party Rogue elected to climb a nearby tree and succeeded in his Stealth checks to remain undetected to every one else, even the party.
The rogue gets antsy and decides that he's had enough. So he shoots the big bad with a bow.
How do you resolve this using your interpretation?
Do you have initiative be rolled, then just enter combat regardless of whether the Rogue has acted yet or not with everyone just assuming they are already fighting?
Or do you roll initiative then have anybody who acts before the rogue just... do nothing until the arrow is loosed?
If your answer is #2, then that is essentially the same as my method.
If it is #1 well. That sounds "pretty awful" to me.
Everyone rolls init. The rogue uses stealth. The enemies are all using perception for init. The rest of the party also uses init, because though they are allied with the rogue they need to notice that the rogue is starting combat from stealth.
Whoever rolls highest goes first. If the rogue rolls highest they're undetected by the enemy until they do something that breaks that (which is likely the attack they make). If the enemy rolls higher they notice the rogue is there and can act before the rogue. If the party rolls higher they notice the rogue and act however they want. Maybe they decide to attack themselves, or maybe they try to stop the rogue.
In scenario one, people notice the rogue starting to act and beat them to the punch.
In scenario two, you're giving the rogue a free action.
It's not the end of the world but I think that way is "pretty awful".
Edit: That is why I eschew perception DC in this scenario and treat the perception roll as both init and the roll to notice the rogue, so you don't have a situation where your init turn is before the rogue but you have no clue that anything is happening.
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I'd probably just use the rogue's exploration mode roll for initiative myself. If it was successful there's decent odds it would put them near the top of initiative anyway. But if someone else beat them, I'd probably have their Spidey sense go off. Maybe they heard the sound of the bow string pull back. What they do at that point will depend on context. An ally might delay. An enemy might Seek or do something defensive. Maybe they hit the and/take cover
Using the exploration mode rolls is a really good practice, IMO. When my players announce they want to Avoid Notice or Search, I have them roll stealth or perception at the onset and roll it forward until it actually matters, like when there's actually an enemy to sneak by or a trap to spot. Then roll again for the next check.
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I feel like trying to trick the GM into letting you go first in combat by intentionally being vague is something that might be frowned upon, but if it works at your table that's fine I guess.
Because ultimately that's what this is about. The rules are pretty clear, but if the "I call dibs on going first" method of initiative is what works for your table, then just go for it.
This is not about trying to trick the GM or anyone else. But it seems really odd to me that the same situation turns out totally different depending on what Mode we're in. If the Bodyguards are moving protectively in front of the enemy, the Barbarian would do something different, and no combat might even be triggered. In Encounter Mode, he gets to wait until it's his turn to declare his intentions and no one, unless they have an action readied for that case (which a good bodyguard might, of course) or he's triggering reactions gets to intervene. However, for some odd reason, if the exact same events happen in Exploration Mode, he has to announce his intentions ahead of time and everyone else gets a chance to react.
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@Claxon, My problem with that interpretation is thus: we already have rules for interrupting a characters turn preemptively. They are called reactions. Using your interpretation, multiple creatures could gain the benefit of treating their turns entirely as a reaction.
Apply that logic to the barbarian. Telegraphing is not a rule in pathfinder 2. You are inventing it for convenience. At no time does a creatures intention give characters who go "first" information they can use to make decisions. At best they can foresee the possibility of a creatures intent, hypothetically, and prepare a readied action to counter it.
Otherwise a player would be justified in asking the GM what a given creature is going to do on its turn, then use that information to their advantage. This is not a mechanic that I am aware of, so why apply it to a surprise attack?
Feel free to have creatures prepare actions during negotiations on the off chance that hostilities begin, but acting on information that the creature should not have is... "pretty awful".
Edit: To be clear I am not advocating giving the first person to attack a "free turn". Instead I am saying that combat should commence at their initiative in the order. Having the conversation happen in initiative neatly clears up the question of what the "faster" characters were doing. Their actions are already spoken for.
To be clear I am not advocating giving the first person to attack a "free turn". Instead I am saying that combat should commence at their initiative in the order.
Technically, yes.
Practically speaking, giving the first person to declare an attack the right to go first when you roll initiative or running all character interaction in encounter mode so the first person to declare an attack always gets to go first in the actual combat are more or less the same thing.
It's a difference without a distinction, at least for that purpose. Maybe worse in other ways, given that it essentially takes away the ability to use alternate skills for initiative.
Again, if that's how you want to run your games that's fine, but there's no sense beating around the bush about it.
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@ creatures could gain the benefit of treating their turns entirely as a reaction.
Apply that logic to the barbarian. Telegraphing is not a rule in pathfinder 2. You are inventing it for convenience. At no time does a creatures intention give characters who go "first" information they can use to make decisions. At best they can foresee the possibility of a creatures intent, hypothetically, and prepare a readied action to counter it.
Nah, we absolutely have rules for telegraphing intentions: the sense motive action. Which works just fine in the context of an initiative roll.
Nah, we absolutely have rules for telegraphing intentions: the sense motive action. Which works just fine in the context of an initiative roll.@ creatures could gain the benefit of treating their turns entirely as a reaction.
Apply that logic to the barbarian. Telegraphing is not a rule in pathfinder 2. You are inventing it for convenience. At no time does a creatures intention give characters who go "first" information they can use to make decisions. At best they can foresee the possibility of a creatures intent, hypothetically, and prepare a readied action to counter it.
Sure. If you want to give the benefit of an action to every entity on the battlefield for their perception based initiative, absolutely. Falls apart real fast if anybody used anything but perception for initiative though.
Edit: Maybe I'll start using Arcana with my wizard to start every combat with Shield up. Cast a spell is an action after all, and why shouldn't I be able to do so?
@Squiggit, that would be the inbuilt advantage of being the first person to act. What I am saying is that the initiating character does not gain a bonus action ala pf1 style surprise rounds. Instead they gain the benefit of being the first to initiate hostilities, which is an advantage in and of itself.
Anyone who's been in a fight can attest to that.
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This seems absurd to me. Thoughts?
This has... already been addressed multiple times upthread. The barbarian reaches for his weapon. The wizard reacts and launches an attack.
What happens after that depends on the table in question. If you want to arrest the wizard, more power to you, but that's your call and doesn't really have anything to do with the rules for initiative are.
This seems absurd to me. Thoughts?This has... already been addressed multiple times upthread. The barbarian reaches for his weapon. The wizard reacts and launches an attack.
What happens after that depends on the table in question. If you want to arrest the wizard, more power to you, but that's your call and doesn't really have anything to do with the rules for initiative are.
And as I stated above. We already have mechanics for this situation: reactions. Making someone's entire turn a reaction by default is absurd.
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We already have mechanics for this situation: reactions.
Uh, no? Reactions are not a substitute for rolling initiative. To even suggest as much is... kind of weird.
The mechanics designed to answer the question "Who's the first to act in a fight?" is... initiative. That's literally the entire purpose of the system. To decide who gets to go first (and second and third and fourth and so on) in an encounter.
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This seems absurd to me. Thoughts?This has... already been addressed multiple times upthread. The barbarian reaches for his weapon. The wizard reacts and launches an attack.
What happens after that depends on the table in question. If you want to arrest the wizard, more power to you, but that's your call and doesn't really have anything to do with the rules for initiative are.
Plus, it's exactly the way it worked in P1e. Both sides are aware of each other; therefore, there's no surprise round; therefore, the barbarian's player's announcement of hostile intentions triggered the initiative roll.
Honestly, the only new wrinkle is the spidey-sense situation when one side wins initiative but is unaware of a Stealthed PC. Which is when I miss the surprise round.
Fwiw, here's the thread where I made an uneasy peace with it after being walked through it a bit.
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Honestly, the only new wrinkle is the spidey-sense situation when one side wins initiative but is unaware of a Stealthed PC. Which is when I miss the surprise round.
Yeah. In that circumstance I agree the rules as they're written have some issues.
But giving out free turns when the two parties are completely aware of each other is silly. Maybe if the GM feels someone's behavior is really surprising they can give that player a circumstance bonus or something though.
Nah, we absolutely have rules for telegraphing intentions: the sense motive action. Which works just fine in the context of an initiative roll.@ creatures could gain the benefit of treating their turns entirely as a reaction.
Apply that logic to the barbarian. Telegraphing is not a rule in pathfinder 2. You are inventing it for convenience. At no time does a creatures intention give characters who go "first" information they can use to make decisions. At best they can foresee the possibility of a creatures intent, hypothetically, and prepare a readied action to counter it.
Sure. If you want to give the benefit of an action to every entity on the battlefield for their perception based initiative, absolutely. Falls apart real fast if anybody used anything but perception for initiative though.
How so? Most of the folks would be using perception if the barbarian is the one kicking it off anyway-- the only example I can think of is someone who wants to try to smooth things over would roll Diplomacy, and winning there would mostly just highlight how diplomacy really requires recotnizing the motives of the people involved. I mean what could be more diplomatic then recognizing someone is about to draw their sword and talking them down before anyone else notices? The fact that diplomacy and sense motive are considered totally different is mostly just a failing of how social mechanics work in D&D.
So you are arguing that a wizard reacting to a hostile action in process, and casting a fireball, notably not something you can do with a reaction, to stop said action is somehow not a reaction?
And remember, this is all from the standpoint of rolling initiative when the "negotiations" or what have you begin. But even if you elect to only roll initiative after someone announces hostile intent, how does it make sense that every other creature present has the ability to, without specifically using the sense motive action, innately recognize the threat and use their turns accordingly as long as they roll high enough on initiative? That makes the initial hostile action essentially schrodinger's strike.
I will also point out that sense motive in 2e is geared more for figuring out if someone is lying to you or under magical influence than it is for deciding if the angry looking barbarian is about to lunge. After all, if a barbarian has been using demoralize throughout the negotiations, what justifiable reason could you have for picking out the exact moment that they decide to strike?
Bit of a tangent but my method also has the added benefit of justifying the use of non-perception skills for initiative more often than the "after battle music plays" method. After all the party face is far more likely to try diplomacy for a negotiation just starting than for a negotiation that has already failed.
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Situation: During a peaceful conversation, barbarian player says to GM they want to initiate combat by charging at the opposing side. Barbarian character has quick-draw like ability.
Initiative is rolled. Opposing wizard beats barbarian in initiative and fireballs the barbarian. Barbarian dies without having drawn his weapon.
Assuming the barbarian character didn't obviously roleplay hostile intent, the wizard has now killed the barbarian based on whatever was perceived by the initiative perception check. This is possibly a gut hunch or sixth sense. Depending on the current setting, the wizard is accused of first degree murder. After all, there's very little tangible evidence that the barbarian had hostile intent - weapon was not drawn. A case of self-defense cannot be made.
This seems absurd to me. Thoughts?
In a word, No.
In more words, you’re missing a lot of what’s really going on from the character’s point of view. Keep in mind that the rules of an RPG are a means of operationalizing what’s going on in the fiction being constructed. There are no “turns”, no actions, from a character’s point of view. The segmented nature of turns is to enable adjudication while the real action would have a semblance of simultaneity.The fireballing wizard isn’t using precognition or a sixth sense. The barbarian starts to make a hostile move so he reacts. The initiative roll doesn’t tell us exactly who makes the first move - it tells us the order in which we play them out and adjudicate them. So if the barbarian, on whose rash declaration we entered a combat footing and rolled for initiative, gets incinerated while still going for his axe and starting hostilities, that’s the price of starting a fight he cannot finish.
Situation: During a peaceful conversation, barbarian player says to GM they want to initiate combat by charging at the opposing side. Barbarian character has quick-draw like ability.
Initiative is rolled. Opposing wizard beats barbarian in initiative and fireballs the barbarian. Barbarian dies without having drawn his weapon.
Assuming the barbarian character didn't obviously roleplay hostile intent, the wizard has now killed the barbarian based on whatever was perceived by the initiative perception check. This is possibly a gut hunch or sixth sense. Depending on the current setting, the wizard is accused of first degree murder. After all, there's very little tangible evidence that the barbarian had hostile intent - weapon was not drawn. A case of self-defense cannot be made.
This seems absurd to me. Thoughts?
In a word, No.
In more words, you’re missing a lot of what’s really going on from the character’s point of view. Keep in mind that the rules of an RPG are a means of operationalizing what’s going on in the fiction being constructed. There are no “turns”, no actions, from a character’s point of view. The segmented nature of turns is to enable adjudication while the real action would have a semblance of simultaneity.
The fireballing wizard isn’t using precognition or a sixth sense. The barbarian starts to make a hostile move so he reacts. The initiative roll doesn’t tell us exactly who makes the first move - it tells us the order in which we play them out and adjudicate them. So if the barbarian, on whose rash declaration we entered a combat footing and rolled for initiative, gets incinerated while still going for his axe and starting hostilities, that’s the price of starting a fight he cannot finish.
And that situation doesnt strike you as odd? A wizard is able to fling off a 2 action ability before a barbarian is able to strike?
I mean, there is a reason many police forces consider 10 feet the limit to how close an officer should allow a hostile individual. At 10 feet more often than not a knife wielding individual will close the distance and strike before an officer can reliably get a shot off.
Unless someone is purposefully "holding an action" to react to something happening, most of the time their reaction time will simply be too slow.
Not to mention how bad it would feel to be that barbarian player. Here you are trying to swing the situation into the parties favor and instead you learn that you had no recourse. Whether you attempted the strike or not, you were going to eat that fireball due to a die roll.
Smart play should be rewarded. If negotiations are breaking down, knowing when to strike is key. It is the definition of "seizing the initiative".
Honestly, the only new wrinkle is the spidey-sense situation when one side wins initiative but is unaware of a Stealthed PC. Which is when I miss the surprise round.Yeah. In that circumstance I agree the rules as they're written have some issues.
But giving out free turns when the two parties are completely aware of each other is silly. Maybe if the GM feels someone's behavior is really surprising they can give that player a circumstance bonus or something though.
This is how I would handle it if I really thought it necessary, give a +2 or a +4 to the init roll.
So you are arguing that a wizard reacting to a hostile action in process, and casting a fireball, notably not something you can do with a reaction, to stop said action is somehow not a reaction?
It's a reaction in the sense of the English word.
It's the first turn of the first round of combat from a Pathfinder mechanics sense.
I think I finally see where your disconnect is, but it's the problem of moving from not init tracked time (Exploration mode) to init tracked time (Encounter mode).
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And that situation doesnt strike you as odd? A wizard is able to fling off a 2 action ability before a barbarian is able to strike?
Sudden Charge is a 2-action ability, too.
Anyway, your issue is with the whole system of round. How come that a character can make 3 (or more) attacks while his enemy isn't able to swing even once. It's the same case, the wizard reacts faster, and gets 3 actions because the system doesn't handle one-action rounds.Also, unless the negociation was perfectly peaceful, there are great chances for other characters to trigger the fight. If the wizard rolled deception, then your barbarian "thought" he would start the fight as he missed the wizard starting his fireball in the middle of the negociation. Calling dibs around the table doesn't mean calling dibs in game.
Honestly, the only new wrinkle is the spidey-sense situation when one side wins initiative but is unaware of a Stealthed PC. Which is when I miss the surprise round.Yeah. In that circumstance I agree the rules as they're written have some issues.
But giving out free turns when the two parties are completely aware of each other is silly. Maybe if the GM feels someone's behavior is really surprising they can give that player a circumstance bonus or something though.
This is how I would handle it if I really thought it necessary, give a +2 or a +4 to the init roll.
So you are arguing that a wizard reacting to a hostile action in process, and casting a fireball, notably not something you can do with a reaction, to stop said action is somehow not a reaction?It's a reaction in the sense of the English word.
It's the first turn of the first round of combat from a Pathfinder mechanics sense.
I think I finally see where your disconnect is, but it's the problem of moving from not init tracked time (Exploration mode) to init tracked time (Encounter mode).
Fair dues, but again, I tend to run tense situations in encounter mode regardless. So there is no moving from exploration mode directly into encounter mode much of the time.
And even in situations where the party was in exploration mode when they encounter enemies, any case where one side is unaware I tend to start "combat" at the initiating characters turn.
One example: My players (level 1 at the time) were investigating a series of disappearances along a trade road. They noticed a campfire in the woods and used Stealth to move closer to the camp to see what was going on. They discovered a group of Goblins roasting the remains of a merchant. I called for initiative, despite the goblins not being aware of the party.
The party rogue decided to sneak into a more advantageous position and rolled high enough to do so. The rest of the party stayed put and waited for the rogue to begin the attack.
The rogue was 3rd or 4th in initiative, and even went after one of the goblins (a Goblin Commando). The rest of the party held their turns every turn until the rogue started the attack.
The rogue gets into position and looses his bow at one of the goblins. They are now aware of an attack, but the Rogue is still hidden from them in cover. The rest of the party then springs into the camp and begins the combat in earnest. The Goblin Commando was denied his turn that round, but he was busy gnawing on a leg.
I enjoyed running the combat that way and my party enjoyed being rewarded for their planning. And really the rules do not specifically forbid you from running a session this way. It makes more sense than a Goblin Commando who is completely unaware of an assailant suddenly just knowing there is a sneaky rogue in the woods and being able to act against him before the rogue even gets a shot off.
Smart play should be rewarded. If negotiations are breaking down, knowing when to strike is key. It is the definition of "seizing the initiative".
I would have really hoped that smart play would involve more than an open attack because negotiations are breaking down. I think that in a negotiation between potentially hostile groups things suddenly coming to a fight would be a highly likely outcome - they'd be watching for such shenanigans. Smart play would be piling on the deception or other subterfuge so they are less likely to see it coming or from where.
Anyway, your issue is with the whole system of round. How come that a character can make 3 (or more) attacks while his enemy isn't able to swing even once. It's the same case, the wizard reacts faster, and gets 3 actions because the system doesn't handle one-action rounds.
Smart play should be rewarded. If negotiations are breaking down, knowing when to strike is key. It is the definition of "seizing the initiative".I would have really hoped that smart play would involve more than an open attack because negotiations are breaking down. I think that in a negotiation between potentially hostile groups things suddenly coming to a fight would be a highly likely outcome - they'd be watching for such shenanigans. Smart play would be piling on the deception or other subterfuge so they are less likely to see it coming or from where.
Smart play means different things to Barbarians than it does to Rogues after all.
And let's be honest, in a ttrpg how often do negotiations with the big bad not devolve into a combat whether the party initiates or not? Call of Cthulhu this is not my friend.
What I meant by smart play is knowing when the negotiations have reached a point where nothing more can be gained and knowing when to strike first. Or knowing that there is a totally not foreshadowed double cross by the other party and striking first. Or knowing when the enemy is just stalling for time and striking first. Or the Barbarian being true to their character, annoying though it may be at times, and becoming fed up with all the wording that the party is doing. They are there to hit things.
I mean not every party is going to run that way, and more power to them. But I can't think of a single "negotiation" in a published adventure or homebrew campaign that I've played that isn't likely to end in combat without the party meeting some very specific requirements. And who's to say that the party face in the Barbarian example isn't "piling on the deception" to mask the Barbarian's attack?
Anyway, your issue is with the whole system of round. How come that a character can make 3 (or more) attacks while his enemy isn't able to swing even once. It's the same case, the wizard reacts faster, and gets 3 actions because the system doesn't handle one-action rounds.
I really like the 3-action system so I'm not a good client for your homebrew hack :)
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The Goblin Commando was denied his turn that round, but he was busy gnawing on a leg.
You punished the goblin commando for rolling high on initiative... Doesn't feel rewarding to me.
If you have to handle such a situation where there is no way anyone would react before a specific trigger, just put the trigger at the top of the initiative chart and play normally for the other ones.
Okay. So how do you resolve a Surprise attack from a creature that is Undetected?
Let's say the party enters negotiations with the Big Bad. The party Rogue elected to climb a nearby tree and succeeded in his Stealth checks to remain undetected to every one else, even the party.
The rogue gets antsy and decides that he's had enough. So he shoots the big bad with a bow.
How do you resolve this using your interpretation?
Do you have initiative be rolled, then just enter combat regardless of whether the Rogue has acted yet or not with everyone just assuming they are already fighting?
Or do you roll initiative then have anybody who acts before the rogue just... do nothing until the arrow is loosed?
If your answer is #2, then that is essentially the same as my method.
If it is #1 well. That sounds "pretty awful" to me.
Any characters that would be standing ready take ready or delay actions if they are tense or do whatever they were doing originally.
If a player decides to metagame it because they know the rogue ally is going to make the attack then -shrugs- that could happen either way and is more of a player issue than a game system issue.
Okay. So how do you resolve a Surprise attack from a creature that is Undetected?
Let's say the party enters negotiations with the Big Bad. The party Rogue elected to climb a nearby tree and succeeded in his Stealth checks to remain undetected to every one else, even the party.
The rogue gets antsy and decides that he's had enough. So he shoots the big bad with a bow.
How do you resolve this using your interpretation?
Do you have initiative be rolled, then just enter combat regardless of whether the Rogue has acted yet or not with everyone just assuming they are already fighting?
Or do you roll initiative then have anybody who acts before the rogue just... do nothing until the arrow is loosed?
If your answer is #2, then that is essentially the same as my method.
If it is #1 well. That sounds "pretty awful" to me.
Any characters that would be standing ready take ready or delay actions if they are tense or do whatever they were doing originally.
If a player decides to metagame it because they know the rogue ally is going to make the attack then -shrugs- that could happen either way and is more of a player issue than a game system issue.
It's not just players that have to metagame/do something. The rogue is now waiting till the 3rd Initiative count to actually fire the crossbow but the guards have to do something on their turns. What should guards who beat a yet to happen threat should be doing before the threat. Thats where the disconnect he is having comes from. Everyone is now Spider man once we move to encounter mode regardless of what skill they roll for init.
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It's not just players that have to metagame/do something. The rogue is now waiting till the 3rd Initiative count to actually fire the crossbow but the guards have to do something on their turns. What should guards who beat a yet to happen threat should be doing before the threat. Thats where the disconnect he is having comes from. Everyone is now Spider man once we move to encounter mode regardless of what skill they roll for init.
Again, I think people are not understanding the situation. Since this is basically an ambush-type situation, the presumption of correct initiative checks would be stealth for the rogue, perception for the guards. If two of them beat the rogue's stealth for the initiative roll, it basically means they've spotted him and can do something about it! Perhaps they spotted his motion as he got his crossbow into position - exactly how they spotted him does matter. What matters is that the rogue's attempt to shoot his crossbow unseen has been spotted as he's setting it up.
The first person to declare something doesn't automatically succeed at being first to implement it. And that's been true in D&D/PF for a long while.
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It's not just players that have to metagame/do something. The rogue is now waiting till the 3rd Initiative count to actually fire the crossbow but the guards have to do something on their turns. What should guards who beat a yet to happen threat should be doing before the threat. Thats where the disconnect he is having comes from. Everyone is now Spider man once we move to encounter mode regardless of what skill they roll for init.Again, I think people are not understanding the situation. Since this is basically an ambush-type situation, the presumption of correct initiative checks would be stealth for the rogue, perception for the guards. If two of them beat the rogue's stealth for the initiative roll, it basically means they've spotted him and can do something about it! Perhaps they spotted his motion as he got his crossbow into position - exactly how they spotted him does matter. What matters is that the rogue's attempt to shoot his crossbow unseen has been spotted as he's setting it up.
The first person to declare something doesn't automatically succeed at being first to implement it. And that's been true in D&D/PF for a long while.
The problem is that if you use the perception DC like your supposed to the goblins can fail to see the rogue, but beat him in init.
Which is why I previously mentioned my method which means eschewing the perception DC in this situation and rolling perception for both init and to see if they spot the rogue.
To me, that's the only sore spot for the system and means you get rid of the "spidey sense" issue.
But yeah, just because you try to ambush the enemy doesn't mean you succeed.
Sometimes the enemy spots you and shots you before you shoot them.
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The problem is that if you use the perception DC like your supposed to the goblins can fail to see the rogue, but beat him in init.
Which is why I previously mentioned my method which means eschewing the perception DC in this situation and rolling perception for both init and to see if they spot the rogue.
To me, that's the only sore spot for the system and means you get rid of the "spidey sense" issue.
But yeah, just because you try to ambush the enemy doesn't mean you succeed.
Sometimes the enemy spots you and shots you before you shoot them.
Yep I think people are missing that part you can not see the guy but still beat him in initiative. And thats the sticking point.
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In any event, I consider it essential to the combat system that "failure" be an option for the person trying to start combat, more specifically that they don't get to go first because someone notices them and acts faster.
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Also, page 498 is pretty explicit that you go straight to initiative. There's even an example involving a PC negotiating and deciding to launch a surprise attack.
And hey, if you want to house rule, more power to you, but it is IS a house rule.
Here's the specific example:
As ravingdork said, the rules for initiative are pretty explicit; as soon as hostilities start, you roll initiative. It works pretty well, too; if the defending negotiating party wins, you justify it as them spotting the danger first and being able to act before they get their face pummeled in.
It's also worth noting that you can use literally any skill in place pf perception for initiative, as long as the dm says yes, and it makes sense. The swashbuckler from the apg playtest even gave us a precedent for allowing intimidate, athletics, and acrobatics for this purpose.
In this specific case, I'd allow the barbarian to roll intimidate (basically, startling the foe with a quick display of force that makes the enemy hesitate) or deception (pretending to go along, but throwing a quick sucker punch). I could see a case for athletics too, depending on the surroundings and how the barbarian is justifying it
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I would say (and this is a personal flourish I would add in my games) while I agree with those here who assert that a free round or even an automatic move to the top of the initiative order may be too much I like to give a reward for a course of action I think would be truly surprising.
I think depending on the situation it would be fitting to award a small Circumstance bonus to the initiative roll or give them the option to have their initiative score be settled with Athletics instead of Perception. It may not be 100% RAW but I prefer it to awarding no bonus at all (if the surprise charge does indeed fit the narrative).
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I suppose the key "disconnect" in the conversation is that I run encounters in far more broad terms than many others. It's a system that works for my group and I encourage you to try it. But it is definitely not the standard way of running exploration mode into encounter mode. It is also not specifically "against the rules" so far as what does or does not justify moving to encounter mode.
Having initiative start before swords fly does have the added benefit of engaging the entire party in parts of the game that they may have sat out of. Conversations for instance. There are plenty of things that non-face characters can contribute, but they rarely do since the "face has got this."
It also allows you to stop a single character from dominating a puzzle, especially timed ones. Exploration mode just does not handle fine detail well, that is what encounter mode is for.
As to rolled initiative counting as spotting danger, I disagree with that. An initiative roll is simply an initiative roll. It does not follow the standard skill check rules, and gives you no added benefit beyond establishing your place in the initiative order.
Quote me the rule that states that a perception roll for initiative counts as seeking a creature. I'm waiting with bated breath.
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I think depending on the situation it would be fitting to award a small Circumstance bonus to the initiative roll or give them the option to have their initiative score be settled with Athletics instead of Perception. It may not be 100% RAW but I prefer it to awarding no bonus at all (if the surprise charge does indeed fit the narrative).
Tbh, being able to roll a skill vs perception is already a pretty big boon without bonuses to the roll.
Most people who are rolling skills to enter combat probably have a higher attribute in that stat than they have wisdom. Odds are, the barbarian only has like 10-14 wisdom, but, at minimum, has 18 str, so were looking at +2 to 4, if not more, right off the bat for rolling athletics vs rolling perception.
Additionally, you can raise skill proficiencies faster than perception proficiency, and most classes only get up to expert or master perception, while all classes can get legendary in any skill they want, so just being able to roll a skill you're specialized in also basically amounts to an additional +2 from higher proficiency.
On top of that, when rolling a skill for initiative, you still get bonuses to the roll from your gear that grants bonuses, unless the skill bonuses are only for certain types of rolls, on top of feats like incredible initiative still applying.
While there might be some especially appropriate times to award initiative bonuses, at most 1 or 2 for setting up an ambush with tons of time in advance to plan and really good information or the like, just being able to use a skill is a tremendous boost in disguise. That said, I do super encourage DMs to let players roll skills for initiative when possible; it's a really nice reward for clever roleplaying and planning.
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I think depending on the situation it would be fitting to award a small Circumstance bonus to the initiative roll or give them the option to have their initiative score be settled with Athletics instead of Perception. It may not be 100% RAW but I prefer it to awarding no bonus at all (if the surprise charge does indeed fit the narrative).Tbh, being able to roll a skill vs perception is already a pretty big boon without bonuses to the roll.
Most people who are rolling skills to enter combat probably have a higher attribute in that stat than they have wisdom. Odds are, the barbarian only has like 10-14 wisdom, but, at minimum, has 18 str, so were looking at +2 to 4, if not more, right off the bat for rolling athletics vs rolling perception.
Additionally, you can raise skill proficiencies faster than perception proficiency, and most classes only get up to expert or master perception, while all classes can get legendary in any skill they want, so just being able to roll a skill you're specialized in also basically amounts to an additional +2 from higher proficiency.
On top of that, when rolling a skill for initiative, you still get bonuses to the roll from your gear that grants bonuses, unless the skill bonuses are only for certain types of rolls, on top of feats like incredible initiative still applying.
While there might be some especially appropriate times to award initiative bonuses, at most 1 or 2 for setting up an ambush with tons of time in advance to plan and really good information or the like, just being able to use a skill is a tremendous boost in disguise. That said, I do super encourage DMs to let players roll skills for initiative when possible; it's a really nice reward for clever roleplaying and planning.
I agree you don't want it to get out of hand. If you do go this route I'd recommend one or another (circumstance bonus or using a skill) and not both.
Ok, Initiative is supposed to represent your ability to react to danger. I'm pretty sure there are feats that improve initiative rolls. Someone with a higher initiative roll is supposed to be better at responding to a danger than someone with a lower roll.
While in some circumstance I might have at some point allowed just a similar situation to occur in a game I might have GM'd, there is still something problematic conceptually due to the purpose of initiative.
Lets take your goblin commando example. Because of the game having gone into combat mode, before the combat, the order became set and the faster person committed combat actions doing non-combat actions, since there was no combat to concern themselves. [in your case, chewing on some meat] Maybe you can call it an attack. Honestly in a small scale, in first edition, I'm sure something like that has happened with me.
But honestly, as mentioned, that commando is actually being penalized for his high initiative roll. This is contrary to the purpose of the roll. [those with a higher roll are supposed to have an advantage in the encounter, not disadvantage]
Granted, the stealthy rogue also had reason to have a form of advantage over them. But the commando should have had an advantage over the non-commando goblins at the start of combat.
Because combat hadn't started yet, it is reasonable to consider that that commando would have had the reflexes to 'stop' his plan to chew on meat for the next 6 seconds and begin combat.
So with that in mind, I'm thinking it would be more appropriate if you enter encounter mode, and pre-roll initiative before combat, I think anyone with higher initiative rolls that the one who 'starts' combat should either have the option of utilizing a reaction, having a potential readied action if deemed appropriate, or being able to stop whatever they were doing, and begin a new action as a delayed action setting their initiative to after the initiator of combat.
I wouldn't have the same issue with it if one of the other characters initiated the fight, becoming visible, and the goblin commando initiated an action, not realizing the rogue was nearby and targeting. The commando would have had his choice of making an action earlier. That he didn't know there was another target closer he could have gone for is due to the advantage of the stealthy position, but he got his advantage of the high initiative.
I think technically, moving into an encounter situation, you ask everyone what they are going to be doing. In that case, if the rogue, and everyone else all are rolling stealth as their initiative and they all beat the goblins perception for initiative, the whole party remains hidden. You don't actually have to move into round by round until hostilities commence. You can continue to describe the actions of the goblins until the first of the characters decides to reveal themselves. At that point, hostilities presumably begin, and the order of initiative (becomes more publicly known} Actually, the commando, might have gotten a higher perception/initiative and knew about them the whole time, but was waiting to find out what the party was going to do.
Basically, pre-encounter you don't have to go round by round since you aren't in combat yet, just describing your planned actions so the GM knows what roll will be made for initiative. If you want to go round by round for this pre-encounter sequence, perhaps you could roll a pre-initiative and have them go in that order. However, once true hostilities commence, I think the point of initiative it to make combat risky and people with initiative bonus have an advantage.
An example of how initiative isn't just supposed to represent ad single order you go through and allow someone to arbitrarily start the sequence at them, would be the old optional rule to roll fresh initiative each round. Making someone with a bonus to initiative checks have a bigger impact over the sequence of several rounds. Since a single bad initiative check doesn't stay with them for an entire combat.
I think depending on the situation it would be fitting to award a small Circumstance bonus to the initiative roll or give them the option to have their initiative score be settled with Athletics instead of Perception. It may not be 100% RAW but I prefer it to awarding no bonus at all (if the surprise charge does indeed fit the narrative).Tbh, being able to roll a skill vs perception is already a pretty big boon without bonuses to the roll.
Most people who are rolling skills to enter combat probably have a higher attribute in that stat than they have wisdom. Odds are, the barbarian only has like 10-14 wisdom, but, at minimum, has 18 str, so were looking at +2 to 4, if not more, right off the bat for rolling athletics vs rolling perception.
Additionally, you can raise skill proficiencies faster than perception proficiency, and most classes only get up to expert or master perception, while all classes can get legendary in any skill they want, so just being able to roll a skill you're specialized in also basically amounts to an additional +2 from higher proficiency.
On top of that, when rolling a skill for initiative, you still get bonuses to the roll from your gear that grants bonuses, unless the skill bonuses are only for certain types of rolls, on top of feats like incredible initiative still applying.
While there might be some especially appropriate times to award initiative bonuses, at most 1 or 2 for setting up an ambush with tons of time in advance to plan and really good information or the like, just being able to use a skill is a tremendous boost in disguise. That said, I do super encourage DMs to let players roll skills for initiative when possible; it's a really nice reward for clever roleplaying and planning.
One easy way to generate circumstance bonuses for initiative is to use stealth and cover to set up an ambush. If you've had a chance to Take Cover in the right environment, that can give you up to a +4 circumstance bonus on initiative.
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Surprise can be handled with the existing rules in a way that is realistic and fair. Essentially, treat Encounter mode and Exploration mode the same as the rules cross over.
a. Players can use Actions and Reactions during Exploration (pg 496)
b. Reactions occur when triggered and can be before the first turn begins (pg 472/498)
c. Attackers can prepare a Ready action to use as a Reaction (pg 17)
d. Initiative when hidden uses Stealth vs Perception (pg 251)
e. If player is hidden, target is Flat-Footed -2 AC (pg 620)Example Scenario
Player: "I'm going to hide in this doorway and attack the first enemy that comes along with my sword" [Ready Action set as a Reaction]
Enemy: Enters hallway but out of range of player [To notice: Stealth vs Perception; player wins so we continue]
Enemy: Unsuspectingly walks within range of the hidden player
Player’s Reaction is triggered so the Readied attack occurs vs flat-footed target
Both: Roll Initiative
This scenario is exactly what many of us are against.
There needs to be an option for the enemy to spot the player and shoot him first.
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There needs to be an option for the enemy to spot the player and shoot him first.
In the example given, there actually was the possibility to notice the hidden player, but the enemy failed his perception check.
But still, it shouldn't make a difference to the order of events if we are in exploration mode or in encounter mode. Encounter mode is explicitly not just "combat mode" as the CRB notes.
It is totally unreasonable that a player doing something unexpected, such as deciding to attack a foe in a previously tense, hostile but non-combat situation, or using a breath weapon that noone even knew he had, or maybe even turn on the party and cast fireball on them instead of detect magic, or whatever other surprising decision you can come up with is penalized for that in exploration mode.
If this is done in encounter mode, i.e. in previously established initiative order (and that explictely doesn't need to be combat according to the CRB), he can do it when it's his turn and everyone who is acting before him doesn't know what is happening and thus has no reason to adapt their actions to him. They don't get a "tingling sensation that player X is going to do something out of the ordinary, so I should better prepare/kill him first". Or do you usually tell your players at the start of the round "Just so you know, the innocent looking civilian dude in the back looks like he's about to call down a meteor strike on you when it's his turn"?
However, if the same non-combat situation is run in exploration mode, everyone can be doing the exact same thing as before, but when the player does something unexpected, now everybody gets a chance to notice him "broadcasting his intention to do something surprising" and get a chance to be able react to that before he's even had a chance to do it.
This is a glaring discrepancy and yes, it does come close to granting everyone else "precognition" for that first round of encounter mode. In my opinion, this is not resolved well by the model preferred by most of you.
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But then you're penalizing literally everyone else who didn't decide to initiate combat because you've already locked them into turn order.
I find that simply unacceptable because you can't possibly react. You only have a binary choice of "am i the one that starts the fight and do I want to risk taking an attack". That's a horrible meta that I don't want to be the case.
You're not penalizing the player by having them roll init and failing to act first if they don't roll the highest, that's just the basic rules.
It absolutely resolves everything fine (in my opinion) because you can notice someone is doing something without them having taken the action in Pathfinder mechanical combat terms. It doesn't grant precognition. It represents being observant and faster than your enemy.
Edit: In my opinion simply being the one to declare they want to attack shouldn't mean you get to go first.
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It's not just players that have to metagame/do something. The rogue is now waiting till the 3rd Initiative count to actually fire the crossbow but the guards have to do something on their turns. What should guards who beat a yet to happen threat should be doing before the threat. Thats where the disconnect he is having comes from. Everyone is now Spider man once we move to encounter mode regardless of what skill they roll for init.Okay. So how do you resolve a Surprise attack from a creature that is Undetected?
Let's say the party enters negotiations with the Big Bad. The party Rogue elected to climb a nearby tree and succeeded in his Stealth checks to remain undetected to every one else, even the party.
The rogue gets antsy and decides that he's had enough. So he shoots the big bad with a bow.
How do you resolve this using your interpretation?
Do you have initiative be rolled, then just enter combat regardless of whether the Rogue has acted yet or not with everyone just assuming they are already fighting?
Or do you roll initiative then have anybody who acts before the rogue just... do nothing until the arrow is loosed?
If your answer is #2, then that is essentially the same as my method.
If it is #1 well. That sounds "pretty awful" to me.
Any characters that would be standing ready take ready or delay actions if they are tense or do whatever they were doing originally.
If a player decides to metagame it because they know the rogue ally is going to make the attack then -shrugs- that could happen either way and is more of a player issue than a game system issue.
Well no, that is what I am saying. The guards are fast reacting but didn't see the rogue... so they are either doing nothing or they were already on edge and are readying or delaying.
So the turns play out until the rogue turn, then everything resolves. It isn't complex and it is 100% RAW and sensible.
But then you're penalizing literally everyone else who didn't decide to initiate combat because you've already locked them into turn order.
I find that simply unacceptable because you can't possibly react. You only have a binary choice of "am i the one that starts the fight and do I want to risk taking an attack". That's a horrible meta that I don't want to be the case.
You're not penalizing the player by having them roll init and failing to act first if they don't roll the highest, that's just the basic rules.
It absolutely resolves everything fine (in my opinion) because you can notice someone is doing something without them having taken the action in Pathfinder mechanical combat terms. It doesn't grant precognition. It represents being observant and faster than your enemy.
Edit: In my opinion simply being the one to declare they want to attack shouldn't mean you get to go first.
So why does the same logic not apply when someone does something highly unusual and unexpected in the SECOND round of encounter mode? (And again, this is not automatically "combat mode").
(Edit: cut a bunch of text, because I didn't want to steer the thread off course...)
But then you're penalizing literally everyone else who didn't decide to initiate combat because you've already locked them into turn order.
I find that simply unacceptable because you can't possibly react. You only have a binary choice of "am i the one that starts the fight and do I want to risk taking an attack". That's a horrible meta that I don't want to be the case.
You're not penalizing the player by having them roll init and failing to act first if they don't roll the highest, that's just the basic rules.
It absolutely resolves everything fine (in my opinion) because you can notice someone is doing something without them having taken the action in Pathfinder mechanical combat terms. It doesn't grant precognition. It represents being observant and faster than your enemy.
Edit: In my opinion simply being the one to declare they want to attack shouldn't mean you get to go first.
So why does the same logic not apply when someone does something highly unusual and unexpected in the SECOND round of encounter mode? (And again, this is not automatically "combat mode").
(Edit: cut a bunch of text, because I didn't want to steer the thread off course...)
What do you mean? Do you have an example?
I guess my answer is: Because you're only going through the transition of Exploration mode to Encounter mode once, and that's when you decide initiative. Unfortunately the only way we can play the game is with actions resolving sequentially because we're not computer and we can't have everyone acting at the same time because we can't simulate that sort of thing without computers. So since we have to resolve things sequentially we require turns. Once we set turn order, there isn't a reason to change it (unless you take the specific kinds of action that can).
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Perhaps it would be better to treat Initiative rolls as what they actually are: A system for ordering turns and not "This guy is the most adept at reacting to the bad guys".
Initiative Rolls are specifically only there to give an order to the turns. They don't count towards any skill checks, regardless of what skill you use for Initiative.
If a Bard uses Diplomacy for Initiative, he will not improve the attitudes of his enemies. If a Barbarian uses Intimidate his enemies do not begin the combat demoralized.
So why in the world would using Perception for Initiative allow you to spot enemies that were undetected to you when Initiative is rolled?
Initiative sets the turn order. Full stop. If an action hasn't occurred yet by your Initiative order, then you only have reactions to fall back on to address that threat.
Surprise has it's own fundamental benefits, and those benefits are lost under Claxon's interpretation. To him it would be just as mechanically beneficial for a rogue to walk into the open and scream to the world that he is going to sneak attack the bad guy to begin a combat.
Initiative =/= Skill check. It is only there to set the turn order.